The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1445608677' post='12496234']
Is it possible that being target bound makes one ball bound?where maybe being motion bound makes one less ball bound?

Posted this now in the right thread for Mr Waldron
[/quote]

The word "bound" in golf instruction means that your mind is frozen on a particular thing that creates anxiety in your mind and tension in your body. It disrupts a fluid athletic motion required to hit good golf shots.

[Ted Williams]

Thank you Jim.Didnt read this in your ebook /nor our discussion.But to beat the bound I alternate swing speeds in my practice session.By alternating the speeds has allowed me to get more freedom and get my conscious mind off of look but more on results

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1445633045' post='12498276']
Thank you Jim.Didnt read this in your ebook /nor our discussion.But to beat the bound I alternate swing speeds in my practice session.By alternating the speeds has allowed me to get more freedom and get my conscious mind off of look but more on results
[/quote]

Its all about where you are putting your focus/attention. You can train at super slow-motion speed or 60 seconds start to finish, or slow-motion about 30 seconds, half speed about 3-4 seconds, and full speed about 1.5 seconds.

Where you focus your eyes has an influence, and where you focus your mind/attention as well.

[Ted Williams]

@jim Waldron

This is where I disagree with you "the eyes".The flinch/hit impulse as you call it really hinders millions of us.And the eyes or intentions can be practically the same with or without a ball.The feedback though can be radically different

The teacher or guru who can unlock the ability to have a students practice swing look the same as a ball swing will be a true master of their craft.Way to many amateurs have perfect practice swings using the same intentions when a ball gets in the way.Unfortunately the outcomes are never the same.Your ideas in your book are close, but this flinch/hit impulse is really devastating for many

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1445644745' post='12499110']
@jim Waldron

This is where I disagree with you "the eyes".The flinch/hit impulse as you call it really hinders millions of us.And the eyes or intentions can be practically the same with or without a ball.The feedback though can be radically different

The teacher or guru who can unlock the ability to have a students practice swing look the same as a ball swing will be a true master of their craft.Way to many amateurs have perfect practice swings using the same intentions when a ball gets in the way.Unfortunately the outcomes are never the same.Your ideas in your book are close, but this flinch/hit impulse is really devastating for many
[/quote]

I'm really not sure what you are trying to convey here. Perhaps you can re-phrase it?

[DaveLeeNC]

I have probably read only 1/3 of the replies in this most valuable thread. That said ....

For some reason I have this almost 'unquenchable desire' to do more with my arms than what needs to be done. I have just started 'doing something' with my arms that seems to me to be helpful. And that is once the BS is started just try to stretch your arms away from your body (rather than lifting your arms away from the ground). In my case that seems to 'give my arms something to do' which they really seem to want. And since that thing is not just 'more lifting', I end up with a better turn. Early results seem to be positive.

Maybe this was discussed elsewhere in this thread, but I thought I'd throw this out for discussion (if any).

Thanks.

dave

ps. And thanks to JW for making himself available here.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1445704887' post='12501290']
I have probably read only 1/3 of the replies in this most valuable thread. That said ....

For some reason I have this almost 'unquenchable desire' to do more with my arms than what needs to be done. I have just started 'doing something' with my arms that seems to me to be helpful. And that is once the BS is started just try to stretch your arms away from your body (rather than lifting your arms away from the ground). In my case that seems to 'give my arms something to do' which they really seem to want. And since that thing is not just 'more lifting', I end up with a better turn. Early results seem to be positive.

Maybe this was discussed elsewhere in this thread, but I thought I'd throw this out for discussion (if any).

Thanks.

dave

ps. And thanks to JW for making himself available here.
[/quote]

Yup. You're on the right track. Search the phrases "triceps extensor" and 'pushaway' in this thread.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1445704887' post='12501290']
I have probably read only 1/3 of the replies in this most valuable thread. That said ....

For some reason I have this almost 'unquenchable desire' to do more with my arms than what needs to be done. I have just started 'doing something' with my arms that seems to me to be helpful. And that is once the BS is started just try to stretch your arms away from your body (rather than lifting your arms away from the ground). In my case that seems to 'give my arms something to do' which they really seem to want. And since that thing is not just 'more lifting', I end up with a better turn. Early results seem to be positive.

Maybe this was discussed elsewhere in this thread, but I thought I'd throw this out for discussion (if any).

Thanks.

dave

ps. And thanks to JW for making himself available here.
[/quote]

Yes - your concept is correct. I teach arms do not lift, ie upper arm muscles do not fire to move the arms up, there is a lift but it is 100% passive and ONLY a result of right elbow folding. Your intention should be only to push away slightly and keep that slight pressure all the way to the Top.

[DaveLeeNC]

Jim/MC3, thanks for the helpful responses.

dave

[poops]

Jim,

I just began watching the ASI video I purchased earlier today. Is there concentrated content within the video on how to execute the proper pivot? From what I understand, the entire swing is greatly dependent on executing an ideal pivot. I'm aware grip and setup are also critical... :-)

Thanks!!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='poops' timestamp='1445733313' post='12502686']
Jim,

I just began watching the ASI video I purchased earlier today. Is there concentrated content within the video on how to execute the proper pivot? From what I understand, the entire swing is greatly dependent on executing an ideal pivot. I'm aware grip and setup are also critical... :-)

Thanks!!
[/quote]

We cover the Pivot Mechanics in great depth and detail in Module Four - Advanced Pivot Mechanics. We completed the shooting of this module last week. It is a ton of material. drills and exercises - will likely need to be divided into two separate videos because of the length.

Arm Swing Illusion video goes into great detail on how to de-construct the Illusion from your Swing Map, and explains the relationship of the arms to the pivot and how to get those two primary pieces of the puzzle to sync up.

We also cover Pivot Mechanics in a basic fashion in Module One videos.

[Jim Waldron]

Here is the trailer for my new video: Module One Part C - Swing Map drills.

A total of 19 drills/exercises designed to quickly imprint new movement patterns into your subconscious mind Swing Map. Almost two hours viewing time.

[url="http://youtu.be/6Q5Y-5F3xBA"]http://youtu.be/6Q5Y-5F3xBA[/url]

I am really proud of this one, we have used all off these drills for the past 23 years in our award-winning Great Shot! ballstriking "boot camp" golf schools. They work, and they work pretty quickly.

[Silky]

Yes, you should be proud of this video module, I can see that it is full of gems. Objectively, the best information about the golf swing, ever. I wish I had this information 30 years ago!

This thread as its namesake addresses the backswing. But in my opinion, your Transition, Tilt Switch and Pivot Thrust sequence is way way more valuable. It is swinging from the ground up, multistage firings of muscle groups with proper geometry of hand path and club head path.

I have managed to incorporate these gems in my current swing to the point that my 3 iron is now usable and am thinking of getting rid of the hybrid

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1445819837' post='12505952']
Yes, you should be proud of this video module, I can see that it is full of gems. Objectively, the best information about the golf swing, ever. I wish I had this information 30 years ago!

This thread as its namesake addresses the backswing. But in my opinion, your Transition, Tilt Switch and Pivot Thrust sequence is way way more valuable. It is swinging from the ground up, multistage firings of muscle groups with proper geometry of hand path and club head path.

I have managed to incorporate these gems in my current swing to the point that my 3 iron is now usable and am thinking of getting rid of the hybrid
[/quote]


Great to hear the videos are helping you so much to strike the ball better! And well said on your description of the forward swing sequence. "From the ground up and from the inside out" has been a saying here at Balance Point for well over two decades.

[Ted Williams]

The new module video series looks excellent.Nice job Mr Waldron

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1445914586' post='12511406']
The new module video series looks excellent.Nice job Mr Waldron
[/quote]

Thanks! A lot of thought, time and energy went into these new videos. I am really happy with how they have turned out so far. We finished taping Modules Three through Seven in the past two months, and will be busy with the editing process this coming winter. Last module - number 8 - taping will have to wait until better weather returns here in Oregon in the Spring. Modules Four (Pivot Mechanics), Five (wrist and right arm mechanics and release) and Six (going through the entire swing in a lot of technical detail, based on six swing segments, and how to blend the pieces into a whole motion) are each long enough - a ton of material and drills - to require two videos of around 1.5 - 2 hours long each.

I am also doing a total redo on our mental game, short game and putting game manuals, and turning them into e-books.

[larssonlegend]

Hi,

I have been following this thread and trying to put into action the ASI concepts. I am striking the ball a lot better . One question I have is there a relation to the moving away at 45 to pulling or pushing. By that I mean if I over or under do it wil lthe consequence be a push or a pull. My misses now seem to be straight left or straight right . I.e. solid contact with no spin bt heading off in wrong direction. I think its when I don't quite get this angle right as I have experimented making it shallower and I seem to pull more.

One thing I noticed on my swing speed radar is if i do nothing with arms the speed is higher than when I go for it with the arms which all ties in with Jim's teachings.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='larssonlegend' timestamp='1446219689' post='12528728']
Hi,

I have been following this thread and trying to put into action the ASI concepts. I am striking the ball a lot better . One question I have is there a relation to the moving away at 45 to pulling or pushing. By that I mean if I over or under do it wil lthe consequence be a push or a pull. My misses now seem to be straight left or straight right . I.e. solid contact with no spin bt heading off in wrong direction. I think its when I don't quite get this angle right as I have experimented making it shallower and I seem to pull more.

One thing I noticed on my swing speed radar is if i do nothing with arms the speed is higher than when I go for it with the arms which all ties in with Jim's teachings.
[/quote]

Good to hear you are seeing some success with the basic concepts here. Yes - all things being equal, too much to the right of mid-line with the left arm to chest angle will tend to cause a push, and too little - a pull. This is one of the main reasons why establishing that angle to the proper amount is really, really important - it eliminates a lot of other factors that could come into play that would cause several kinds of bad shots. But - in your case, there is really no way to know for sure without taking a lesson and finding out precisely why those misses are happening.

The dirty little secret of the golf swing is that the golf swing is really complex and a there are many, many causes for any bad shot you can name. The odds of correct self-diagnosis and then following that with the right remedy - especially if you are a mid to high handicap - are close to zero.

[starsail85]

Jim

Is the change in the push away angle for different clubs because of the different amounts of forward bend you recomend for different clubs?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446224071' post='12529106']
Jim

Is the change in the push away angle for different clubs because of the different amounts of forward bend you recomend for different clubs?
[/quote]

The pushaway angle is the same for all clubs - 45 degrees with left arm to chest during takeaway. That angle will then change during second half of backswing due to pivot momentum leaking into upper arm joints, and yes - there is more momentum causing this on a driver than on a wedge, due to more upright spine angle with driver, ie more energy leaking into horizontal dimension.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1446224240' post='12529118']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446224071' post='12529106']
Jim

Is the change in the push away angle for different clubs because of the different amounts of forward bend you recomend for different clubs?
[/quote]

The pushaway angle is the same for all clubs - 45 degrees with left arm to chest during takeaway. That angle will then change during second half of backswing due to pivot momentum leaking into upper arm joints, and yes - there is more momentum causing this on a driver than on a wedge, due to more upright spine angle with driver, ie more energy leaking into horizontal dimension.
[/quote]

Thanks

Is it then correct to say that momentum leaking into the horizontal dimension is responsible for the longer swings we see with longer clubs?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446225752' post='12529242']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1446224240' post='12529118']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446224071' post='12529106']
Jim

Is the change in the push away angle for different clubs because of the different amounts of forward bend you recomend for different clubs?
[/quote]

The pushaway angle is the same for all clubs - 45 degrees with left arm to chest during takeaway. That angle will then change during second half of backswing due to pivot momentum leaking into upper arm joints, and yes - there is more momentum causing this on a driver than on a wedge, due to more upright spine angle with driver, ie more energy leaking into horizontal dimension.
[/quote]

Thanks

Is it then correct to say that momentum leaking into the horizontal dimension is responsible for the longer swings we see with longer clubs?
[/quote]

Yes - exactly. Along with the fact that there is less muscle resistance to rotation and tilting of the pivot when you have a more upright posture/s angle. It is why you cant pivot as much with an L wedge v driver - maybe 85 degrees with L wedge and 95 degrees or even more with a driver. Spine angle with L wedge is close to 45 degrees, and more like 25 degrees with driver.

This fact also has a huge influence on Tempo in the golf swing, since you need just one swing speed or Tempo for consistency of shotmaking. That means you use your driver Tempo as the baseline for all the clubs. Same Tempo, different RPM speeds for L wedge and driver.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1446226516' post='12529342']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446225752' post='12529242']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1446224240' post='12529118']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446224071' post='12529106']
Jim

Is the change in the push away angle for different clubs because of the different amounts of forward bend you recomend for different clubs?
[/quote]

The pushaway angle is the same for all clubs - 45 degrees with left arm to chest during takeaway. That angle will then change during second half of backswing due to pivot momentum leaking into upper arm joints, and yes - there is more momentum causing this on a driver than on a wedge, due to more upright spine angle with driver, ie more energy leaking into horizontal dimension.
[/quote]

Thanks

Is it then correct to say that momentum leaking into the horizontal dimension is responsible for the longer swings we see with longer clubs?
[/quote]

Yes - exactly. Along with the fact that there is less muscle resistance to rotation and tilting of the pivot when you have a more upright posture/s angle. It is why you cant pivot as much with an L wedge v driver - maybe 85 degrees with L wedge and 95 degrees or even more with a driver. Spine angle with L wedge is close to 45 degrees, and more like 25 degrees with driver.

This fact also has a huge influence on Tempo in the golf swing, since you need just one swing speed or Tempo for consistency of shotmaking. That means you use your driver Tempo as the baseline for all the clubs. Same Tempo, different RPM speeds for L wedge and driver.
[/quote]

What are the RPM speeds you mention here? Eg driver is bigger turn and thus needs to be a faster turn RPM to keep same tempo?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446228044' post='12529476']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1446226516' post='12529342']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446225752' post='12529242']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1446224240' post='12529118']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446224071' post='12529106']
Jim

Is the change in the push away angle for different clubs because of the different amounts of forward bend you recomend for different clubs?
[/quote]

The pushaway angle is the same for all clubs - 45 degrees with left arm to chest during takeaway. That angle will then change during second half of backswing due to pivot momentum leaking into upper arm joints, and yes - there is more momentum causing this on a driver than on a wedge, due to more upright spine angle with driver, ie more energy leaking into horizontal dimension.
[/quote]

Thanks

Is it then correct to say that momentum leaking into the horizontal dimension is responsible for the longer swings we see with longer clubs?
[/quote]

Yes - exactly. Along with the fact that there is less muscle resistance to rotation and tilting of the pivot when you have a more upright posture/s angle. It is why you cant pivot as much with an L wedge v driver - maybe 85 degrees with L wedge and 95 degrees or even more with a driver. Spine angle with L wedge is close to 45 degrees, and more like 25 degrees with driver.

This fact also has a huge influence on Tempo in the golf swing, since you need just one swing speed or Tempo for consistency of shotmaking. That means you use your driver Tempo as the baseline for all the clubs. Same Tempo, different RPM speeds for L wedge and driver.
[/quote]

What are the RPM speeds you mention here? Eg driver is bigger turn and thus needs to be a faster turn RPM to keep same tempo?
[/quote]

Yes - exactly. It means your goal is same length of time measured in seconds from start to finish with all clubs, but bigger range of motion with driver and smaller with L wedge means slower rpm speed of shoulder girdle rotation with the L wedge compared to driver.

Its a complex issue in the golf swing, and I devote much of Module Eight to this and some related topics. You need to understand how time and space are two sides of same coin to see through this Illusion. Most golfers really struggle with this one. It is one of the main causes of the Hit Impulse.

[starsail85]

Ok Jim here is one for you

Half swing wedge shot, same tempo and slower rpm?

[SmoothTempo]

Jim, not to interrupt the nice discussion with Mizuno, but what are you thoughts on single length/lie angle irons?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1446230227' post='12529656']
Ok Jim here is one for you

Half swing wedge shot, same tempo and slower rpm?
[/quote]

No - different tempo and rhythm for wedges, long game shots and chips/pitches.

[quote name='SmoothTempo' timestamp='1446231079' post='12529736']
Jim, not to interrupt the nice discussion with Mizuno, but what are you thoughts on single length/lie angle irons?
[/quote]

I really dont know anything about them so cannot comment.

[larssonlegend]

Just back from the range and have to say i've never hit the ball better in 30 years playing golf. I'm 7 handicapper so always been semi decent striker but tonight was concentrating on tilt switch and cocking/uncocking /hinging wrists. I saw great results when i stared at a spot on mat when doing the switch and at same time uncocking straight down . Irons were crisp high and long.

Took a while to get it right with driver, what helped was imagining a ball just before real ball (probably low point of swing) So i hit real ball on up and stayed behind it.

Really excited about my golf . Just like to thank Jim and Kiwi for starting thread.

[solarbear88]

If you could only afford one of the dvd's which one would you buy? Or just get the ebook?

[starsail85]

Here is another question

Putter head tempo stays the same regardless of length of stroke

Eg shorter strokes are slower than longer strokes that are faster

Agree all strokes take same time?