Water hazd, lost & found...

[golf-ccc]

Help me do the counting....pls

Here's the deal.

Par four 410 yds, watter hazard (watter channel that runs along the hole) to the left and OOB to the right that also run along the hole, both hazards run from tee to green.

My playing partner drives his ball that clearly goes into the watter channel to the left, some 200 yds forward. He plays a provisional ball in case we cannot find his first ball. The prov. goes to the center of the fairway and it's ok to play.

We start looking for his ball and he says he found it in the watter channel that is cemented and decides to play that ball from there. He lifts his provisional and procedes to play from the hazard. He manages to get the ball out of the hazard but its unplayable in the middle of bushes, so he has to take one penalty stroke in order to continue.

Thats when we find his original ball that never went into the hazard and is totally playable, so the ball in the hazd was a wrong ball and his prov. was already lifted. By that time we already passed the position where the lost ball was last seen.

He then decides that he'll play the original (first drive) ball under the Hit the wrong ball rule and scores a 6!!!!

In my opinion he should have replaced the provisional to the original spot, and continue to play under the wrong ball rule and score an 8 at least.

I lost count with so many breached....any thoughts???

[2zlinks]

I think I might have to pull out my abacus for this one. This much I know. One of the options when you hit a ball in a water hazard is that you can replay the shot, with the same consequences as if it were hit OB, stroke and distance. Once your partner found his ball in the hazard he has to play his "provisional" from the fairway because he has, in effect, chosen this option by hitting a second tee ball. For that reason it is never advisable to play a provisional when your ball may have gone in a water hazard.

 

When your partner picked up his "provisional" without marking it he would incur a one stroke penalty(Rule 20-1). Sounds to me like he should be hitting 5 from the fairway.

[paulyb]

You can only play a provisional ball if you think it is OB or lost outside a water hazard.

[golf-ccc]

Thanks for clarifing things...

 

The ball could have been lost outside the water hazard so he played a provisional ball....I mean, it was a pronunced hook that could actually passed over the channel and landed in the rough of a paralel hole.

 

My counting is:

 

1 First drive

Searching begins and one ball is found in the bottom of the cemented channel.

** By lifting his provisional ball he indicates that it will no longer play it and that he found his first shot, so by then, the only ball in play is the first one**

2 Penalty for hitting a wrong ball from the hazard.

3 **Realizes his first drive is playable** Approach to green--- lands short

4 Slice shot passes over the green

5 Approach on the green

6&7 Two putts.

 

Still he scores a six!!! damn it!!

 

Thanks for your comments......

[2zlinks]

Just so you know your not penalized for hitting a wrong ball in the hazard. Not sure where you came up with a score of 6. Once he found his original ball in the hazard he has to play his second tee shot. Since he picked that up, that would be a penalty. 3 off the tee, plus the penalty he is lying 4, hitting 5 from the fairway.

[spro]

If i understand you correctly, he found his original ball in the hazard. Once he found his original ball in the hazard, he cannot play the provisional ball. - You can only play a provisional when the ball is lost outside a hazard, or out of bounds. So, unless he did not announce he was hitting a provisional ball, he has to play the original ball. The ball he played out of the hazard that was not his doesn't matter - no penalty.

[Seve424]

Do you guys remember when Norman did something similar? I think your friend made more than a 6.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=17...&type=story

[golf-ccc]

Nop, the ball in the hazard was someone elses ball. Both drives were in the fairway, the first one much longer than any of us expected, must have hit a cart path or something since we all clearly saw it going towards the channel or even the paralel fairway.

 

My partner hit the ball lying in the hazard thinking that it was his first drive, prior to that he already lifted the provisional ball.

 

Now, the fact that many of us thought that the ball could have jumped to the paralel hole is that happened many times in the past so it was not crazy to belive it could be lost since a 160 yds line of dividing bushes block your vision from the tee in order to clearly see the ball going into the water or the next hole.

 

Tha example with Normans case is very similar to mine, except that Greg played a provisional for the ball in the water hazard which is clearly a breach. My partner did because his drive could be lost.

 

What if Norman "thinks" the ball is not in the hazard and maybe its lost. What if he said he was playing a provisional because he thinks his drive is lost??

 

Under doubt, can you play a provisional calling your shot for a possible lost ball?

[2zlinks]

Nop, the ball in the hazard was someone elses ball. Both drives were in the fairway, the first one much longer than any of us expected, must have hit a cart path or something since we all clearly saw it going towards the channel or even the paralel fairway.

 

My partner hit the ball lying in the hazard thinking that it was his first drive, prior to that he already lifted the provisional ball.

 

Now, the fact that many of us thought that the ball could have jumped to the paralel hole is that happened many times in the past so it was not crazy to belive it could be lost since a 160 yds line of dividing bushes block your vision from the tee in order to clearly see the ball going into the water or the next hole.

 

Tha example with Normans case is very similar to mine, except that Greg played a provisional for the ball in the water hazard which is clearly a breach. My partner did because his drive could be lost.

 

What if Norman "thinks" the ball is not in the hazard and maybe its lost. What if he said he was playing a provisional because he thinks his drive is lost??

 

Under doubt, can you play a provisional calling your shot for a possible lost ball?

 

Yes you can play a provisional for a possible lost ball. If you then find that your first ball is in a hazard you have to play the "provisional" ball. As I stated before, one of the options you have when your ball lies in a hazard is to play the shot over. By hitting a second shot from the tee your playing partner effectively chose this option (even if he didn't know his first shot was in the hazard) and no longer has the option of playing out of the hazard, or the other options that would have been available to him had he not hit his second tee shot.

[Newman]

Nop, the ball in the hazard was someone elses ball. Both drives were in the fairway, the first one much longer than any of us expected, must have hit a cart path or something since we all clearly saw it going towards the channel or even the paralel fairway.

 

My partner hit the ball lying in the hazard thinking that it was his first drive, prior to that he already lifted the provisional ball.

 

Now, the fact that many of us thought that the ball could have jumped to the paralel hole is that happened many times in the past so it was not crazy to belive it could be lost since a 160 yds line of dividing bushes block your vision from the tee in order to clearly see the ball going into the water or the next hole.

 

Tha example with Normans case is very similar to mine, except that Greg played a provisional for the ball in the water hazard which is clearly a breach. My partner did because his drive could be lost.

 

What if Norman "thinks" the ball is not in the hazard and maybe its lost. What if he said he was playing a provisional because he thinks his drive is lost??

 

Under doubt, can you play a provisional calling your shot for a possible lost ball?

 

Yes you can play a provisional for a possible lost ball. If you then find that your first ball is in a hazard you have to play the "provisional" ball. As I stated before, one of the options you have when your ball lies in a hazard is to play the shot over. By hitting a second shot from the tee your playing partner effectively chose this option (even if he didn't know his first shot was in the hazard) and no longer has the option of playing out of the hazard, or the other options that would have been available to him had he not hit his second tee shot.

 

That's incorrect. The provisional ball rule only applies to a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard, or OB. If you find your ball in the hazard you must either proceed under Rule 26-1, or play it as it lies. If you decide to play the "provisional" instead, you've broken Rule 20-7 Playing from a wrong place.

[2zlinks]

Nop, the ball in the hazard was someone elses ball. Both drives were in the fairway, the first one much longer than any of us expected, must have hit a cart path or something since we all clearly saw it going towards the channel or even the paralel fairway.

 

My partner hit the ball lying in the hazard thinking that it was his first drive, prior to that he already lifted the provisional ball.

 

Now, the fact that many of us thought that the ball could have jumped to the paralel hole is that happened many times in the past so it was not crazy to belive it could be lost since a 160 yds line of dividing bushes block your vision from the tee in order to clearly see the ball going into the water or the next hole.

 

Tha example with Normans case is very similar to mine, except that Greg played a provisional for the ball in the water hazard which is clearly a breach. My partner did because his drive could be lost.

 

What if Norman "thinks" the ball is not in the hazard and maybe its lost. What if he said he was playing a provisional because he thinks his drive is lost??

 

Under doubt, can you play a provisional calling your shot for a possible lost ball?

 

Yes you can play a provisional for a possible lost ball. If you then find that your first ball is in a hazard you have to play the "provisional" ball. As I stated before, one of the options you have when your ball lies in a hazard is to play the shot over. By hitting a second shot from the tee your playing partner effectively chose this option (even if he didn't know his first shot was in the hazard) and no longer has the option of playing out of the hazard, or the other options that would have been available to him had he not hit his second tee shot.

 

That's incorrect. The provisional ball rule only applies to a ball that may be lost outside of a water hazard, or OB. If you find your ball in the hazard you must either proceed under Rule 26-1, or play it as it lies. If you decide to play the "provisional" instead, you've broken Rule 20-7 Playing from a wrong place.

 

I know that you cannot play a provisional ball when your shot is in a hazard. In the stated scenerio they thought the ball was lost and therefor hit what they deemed to be a provisional shot. Had the original ball been lost, or outside the hazard this would have been acceptable, but once they found the original in the hazard he then has 4 options (assuming it was a lateral water hazard) 1. Play it as it lies in the hazard, 2. Play the next shot two club lengths from where the ball entered the hazard, 3. Line of site from where the ball entered the hazard (not sure if that is the correct terminology), or 4. Hit the shot over again, in this case from the tee.

 

My contention is that once he reteed, he in effect took the first ball out of play (because it was in the hazard) by choosing option 4 even if he didn't realize it at the time.

[Newman]

Actually, he stated in the original post "My playing partner drives his ball that clearly goes into the watter channel to the left". If his playing partner is proceeding under this assumption, whether it's actually the case or not, he can't declare a provisional. (see Decision 27-2a/2). The moment he plays another ball from the tee, under the belief that his ball is in the hazard, he has just played his 3rd shot.

 

 

 

What his partner should have originally done was gone and searched for the ball in the hazard. Because he didn't, that's when things went haywire.

[Seve424]

Yeah, once it's clearly in the hazard the next ball you hit is in play. Once he picks that ball up it's a mess.

[golf-ccc]

I agree with you guys.

 

The next part of the counting is that the ball found and played at the bottom of the hazard was not his first drive, but my partner actualli hit it....that one stroke penalty for wrong ball, by that time he already lifted his provisional ball....but licky him he found his first one 40 yds ahead...

[jdhallissey]

I agree with you guys.

 

The next part of the counting is that the ball found and played at the bottom of the hazard was not his first drive, but my partner actualli hit it....that one stroke penalty for wrong ball, by that time he already lifted his provisional ball....but licky him he found his first one 40 yds ahead...

 

 

Your wrong again- not to sound like an Word not allowed. I took a rules offical class for 2 years on this stuff. In a hazard you can play the ball that you think is yours, If you can't see your marks you may play the ball. When the ball is out of the hazard and you realize that it is not your ball. There is no penalty. You just have to find your ball. Meaning you can hack 30 balls out of the hazard within the 5 mins. IF none of them are yours then you have actually 5 options, the four stated above and the 5th that hardly gets used but you can go to the other side of the water hazard keeping the same line and going no closer to the hole drop within 2 clubs of that hazard.

 

Going back to the ruling- your playing partner never played a ball that was past his original did he? If not he picked up his provisional and played the ball from the hazard. That was not his and he found his ball up the rough ahead of the other provisional he will play his first ball as if nothing else happened on that hole. So he takes no penatly on that hole from the tee-shots. Remember the golf rule book is a great thing! I have read it many of times and also own the decisions on golf rulings too.

[golf-ccc]

Thank you very much indeed for clearing out things.

 

I've read many times your post but still want to make a redundant question since this post has become very schoolastic for me.

 

You can actually hit as many balls lying in a hazard as you can/want WITHOUT a single stroke of a penalty? What I'm understanding it that the "hit the wrong ball" rule doesn't apply with balls played from a hazard.

 

Another one, when my partner lifted his provisional ball which was a much shorter drive than his first one, he actually didn;t have a ball in play since the ball in the hazard was not his and his first one was lost (found later by lick when searching for the ball be play from the hazard)....If we never found his first drive, what would be the ruling?

 

 

Thanx again...

[Cameron Circle T]

That is correct, wrong ball rule does NOT apply in a hazard when you cannot see the markings or positively identify the ball. You can do exactly as the poster stated, with no penalty.

[Andariego]

Here's the deal.

 

Par four 410 yds, watter hazard (watter channel that runs along the hole) to the left and OOB to the right that also run along the hole, both hazards run from tee to green.

 

My playing partner drives his ball that clearly goes into the watter channel to the left, some 200 yds forward. He plays a provisional ball in case we cannot find his first ball. The prov. goes to the center of the fairway and it's ok to play.

 

We start looking for his ball and he says he found it in the watter channel that is cemented and decides to play that ball from there. He lifts his provisional and procedes to play from the hazard. He manages to get the ball out of the hazard but its unplayable in the middle of bushes, so he has to take one penalty stroke in order to continue.

 

Thats when we find his original ball that never went into the hazard and is totally playable, so the ball in the hazd was a wrong ball and his prov. was already lifted. By that time we already passed the position where the lost ball was last seen.

 

He then decides that he'll play the original (first drive) ball under the Hit the wrong ball rule and scores a 6!!!!

 

In my opinion he should have replaced the provisional to the original spot, and continue to play under the wrong ball rule and score an 8 at least.

 

I lost count with so many breached....any thoughts???

wow this is good stuff. I don't have a clue about complex rulings like this but I will be Judge Judy.

 

1. The provisional tee shot doesn't matter. It was never in play.

 

2. After hitting the ball out of the hazard it was identified as the wrong ball.

 

3. The correct ball was found in the hazard and and the player took 4 shots to get down from there.

 

4. This ruling is based on the good faith assumption that the ball removed from the bushes as an unplayable lie, was still not identified. Its also based on the assumption that there is no penalty for hitting a provisional when you don't need to.

 

I've reviewed the testimony and the score is 6.

[Andariego]

WOW was I wrong. I ran this scenario by the head pro at my club this morning, who is a rules freak. He showed me these 3 item on the USGA website:

 

Rule 27-2

 

Provisional Ball Played for Ball that may be in Water Hazard

 

Q. Kim`s ball is played and goes towards a water hazard. She elects to play a provisional ball in case the ball is in the water hazard. What is the ruling?

 

A. A player may not play a provisional ball for the sole purpose of the original ball being in a water hazard. The second ball Kim played from the teeing ground is the ball in play under penalty of one stroke. Kim must play her fourth stroke with the second ball. (See Decision 27-2a/2)

 

 

 

 

27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard

 

 

Q. A player’s tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?

 

A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of “Provisional Ball,” is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

 

15-3 Wrong Ball

 

a. Match Play

If a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball that is not in a hazard, he loses the hole.

There is no penalty if a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball in a hazard. Any strokes made at a wrong ball in a hazard do not count in the player’s score.

If the wrong ball belongs to another player, its owner must place a ball on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.

If the player and opponent exchange balls during the play of a hole, the first to make a stroke at a wrong ball that is not in a hazard, loses the hole; when this cannot be determined, the hole must be played out with the balls exchanged.

b. Stroke Play

If a competitor makes a stroke or Strokes at a wrong ball that is not in a hazard, he incurs a penalty of two strokes.

There is no penalty if a competitor makes a stroke at a wrong ball in a hazard. Any Strokes made at a wrong ball in a hazard do not count in the competitor’s score.

The competitor must correct his mistake by playing the correct ball or by proceeding under the Rules. If he fails to correct his mistake before making a stroke on the next teeing ground, or in the case of the last hole of the round, fails to declare his intention to correct his mistake before leaving the putting green, he is disqualified.

Strokes made by a competitor with a wrong ball do not count in his score.

If the wrong ball belongs to another competitor,its owner must place a ball on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.

(Lie of ball to be placed or replaced altered — see Rule 20-3b.)

(Spot not determinable — see Rule 20-3c.)

 

The pro said since the first tee ball was clearly hit into the water hazard. When he played the provisional, it became the ball in play. The player then found the first tee ball in the hazard, and hit it back into play. It doesn't matter how many strokes were played from here. THE PLAYER COMPLETED THE HOLE WITH THE WRONG BALL . The player did not correct his mistake before the next teeing ground. He loses the hole in match play, and is disqualified in stroke play.

 

The pro said there is a new local rule adopted by some courses, allowing a provisional ball for a shot clearly hit into a hazard, to aid the pace of play.