The NBA basketball thread 2013-2014

[baseballfrk8998]

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1393254715' post='8734068']
[quote name='baseballfrk8998' timestamp='1393123646' post='8725432']
Parker was incredible tonight.

Jeff is right, he doesn't play great defense.. Yet! He's freakishly athletic though and makes so many things happen on the offensive end. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was the 1st pick in the draft.

The problem with Embiid is that his biggest asset is also his biggest liability.. He's huge and it's pretty much impossible to draft big men well in the NBA because it's such a crap shoot. For every Roy Hibbert or Dwight Howard in the league, there is a Greg Oden, Hasheem Thabeet and a Kwame Brown lurking.

If I'm a GM, I'd rather take as much of a sure thing as you are likely to see (Parker, Wiggins) over someone like Embiid who, like Jeff said, has unlimited potential, but also has the greatest chance (IMO) to flop/bust.

I'm not saying you never draft big men because you absolutely have to.. But do you draft a big man over players like Parker or Wiggins? I know what Portland's answer would be.
[/quote]

One of the knocks on Parker is that he isn't as athetic as most people thought - he certainly doesn't have elite athleticism. He doesn't move well laterally - similar to a McDermot. You can still be a great NBA player without elite athleticism (Pierce, Carmelo, etc) but your ceiling, as Jeff said, is lower.
[/quote]

You may be right.. I haven't watched a ton of CBB this season. The several games I've watched Parker, he's had some crazy putback dunks where he was way above the rim. That's why I assumed he was just crazy athletic.

[somaplr]

One of the arguments in the "pro" Jabari camp is that he's never really gotten in shape from his injuries over the summer and that's why he looks "doughy". Your right, he can get off the floor once, but I think most NBA GM's concerns are his body and that he lacks the ELITE level of athleticism.

While I wouldnt consider him being fat, he certaily doesn't have muscularture and low body fat of the other athletes in this Top Draft Pick category - I think he needs to lose about 15 lbs and transform similarly to what Hibbert did over the off season.

Some of these guys may end up staying anyways - I think he is one of them. I really wish there was a two year rule.

[mnplayer]

I don't see there being any chance that Jabari stays. He's the most NBA ready as far as basketball skills go, he doesn't need to come back to school to get into better shape.

[somaplr]

[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393262575' post='8734940']
I don't see there being any chance that Jabari stays. He's the most NBA ready as far as basketball skills go, he doesn't need to come back to school to get into better shape.
[/quote]

I meant to say he's one that is "considering" staying - over half the NBA GM's think he's staying

[MtlJeff]

I agree with Somap that a 2 year rule would be great. It's hard to turn down the money so i understand why they leave, but i wonder how many careers would have been better off if they stayed

Anthony Davis did an interview with Jalen Rose where he said the guys just have no idea how physical the NBA is. You just get pushed around so much. And this was a guy who averaged 12/7 as a 19 year old rookie and was one of the most touted big men in a while. He also said the NBA is not a developmental league, if you can't play in many cases you don't and you end up not improving. Look at early on with Anthony Bennett, he was sitting out games as a #1 pick. They NBA is not a league where they coddle you. I wonder how a guy like Darko Milicic's career might have been different if he had played 2-3 years at a US college.

All the people calling the Jrue Holiday swap from last year a total demolition of a trade, aren't factoring in things like Nerlens Noel played hardly any college ball, is rail thin and raw, and hasn't played basketball in over a year. He'll likely start his career without having played competitive hoops in 2 years and he's raw and skinny. The guy might just never make it, i mean you don't want to think that but you don't know.

What about a guy like Derrick Favors or Enes Kanter of the Jazz? Long wingspans, good athletes and big. What if they'd stayed 2-3 years in college and developped an offensive game instead of moving around the NBA. Would they be further along then they are? Both guys don't quite seem to "get it" yet

Tristan Thompson, can't shoot....Tyreke Evans....can't shoot. Would they have learned in college? Who knows

[MtlJeff]

it's still early but Ben Mclemore is another good example of a guy who may never get a chance. The Kings already have shopped him. What if he got traded to a contender who didn't play him....He's struggling with his shot, he's a skinny guy who's been a little lost on both ends.

The guy as say, a junior, would have dominated college and come out ready to be a star...He might never make it but you hope he does. But even in Sacramento he's not a feature player and isn't going to get a quality plays run for him etc

Would be nice to see Wiggins work on his shot, Embiid work on overall offense....etc. Julius Randle get arm extensions so he doesn't look like a tyrannosaurus rex

[TheGameChanger]

The Big Guys are better off staying in college for 2 years,

I wasn't sold on Mclemore before the draft. However the draft was supposed to be weak. I'm very interested in seeing what Noel does when he ends up playing. Hope He Added some muscle.

With All the talk about Parker. His Team Mate Rodney Hood has looked great.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393205865' post='8731254']
I'm not sure I agree with Wiggins being like LeBron offensively. I never see him demand the ball, and he doesn't seem to want to take a ton of shots every game, but he doesn't handle the ball and facilitate the way that LeBron does, or even Iggy to some extent. I really think he's more likely to watch and never get a shot than to take 30 in a game. He needs to be more aggressive, whether he's going to be a scorer or a facilitator or a bit of both. I agree he's more likely to defer to his teammates, but not as a facilitator like LeBron, more like I'll shoot it if I'm open but otherwise I'll just pass it back.

I'd really like to see both Wiggins and Embid stay another year, but I'm sure it's hard to walk away for being a surefire top 3 pick. Parker and Randle look 100% NBA ready to me but I think Wiggins and Embid would really benefit from another year at Kansas. Embid has already hinted that he might stay, he basically said he wasn't sure if he was ready for the NBA, and it seemed like he was talking about the lifestyle as much as basketball.
[/quote]

I didn't mean to compare James and Wiggins' offensive games because i agree they are different. Lebron you could tell early on was a really gifted passer. I don't see that with Wiggins. James was also a better ball handler then Wiggins as a 19 year old

I just mean Wiggins doesn't seem to have the "i'm the best player on the court" look. Something that early on people said about James. Even before he won the first title Kobe took shots at him for passing up the last shot in an allstar game. I think Wiggins will fight that

[tocino]

I like the 2 year rule for college especially if the NBA would develop their d-league into a true farm system. If you want to improve yourself while getting an education then you go to college. If you want to improve yourself while getting paid, d-league. I'm not sure how it is in the east coast but I know the warriors and the houston rockets each have their own dedidcated team that runs just about the same plays they do on the big squad. It makes for an easier transition if/when they call up people.

[MtlJeff]

Zach Lowe in his sidebar did an interesting fake trade today...Normally i hate Westbrook trades but how about this one:

Wolves get:
-Westbrook
-Perkins

OKC gets
-Rubio
-Pekovic
-Barea

So Russell gets reunited with soul mate and best friend Kevin Love, maybe keeping both of them in minnesota. OKC gets a very good low post scorer and a pass first passing savant

I didn't get infuriated at that one. It's actually not that bad

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1393263068' post='8734992']
[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393262575' post='8734940']
I don't see there being any chance that Jabari stays. He's the most NBA ready as far as basketball skills go, he doesn't need to come back to school to get into better shape.
[/quote]

I meant to say he's one that is "considering" staying - over half the NBA GM's think he's staying
[/quote]

wouldn't it be hilarious if Philly tanks the crap out of the season (which is happening regardless), and then Dante Exum goes to a US college, and Parker/Wiggins/Embiid stay in school LOL

They may need to hold out Nerlens Noel another year and hire a hitman to break Thad Young's leg

[baseballfrk8998]

I know it was against LAL, but Indiana got 50 points from their bench in their first game with Turner playing. If they get production like that, they're going to give Miami all they want and then some.

[TheGameChanger]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1393382539' post='8746306']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1393263068' post='8734992']
[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393262575' post='8734940']
I don't see there being any chance that Jabari stays. He's the most NBA ready as far as basketball skills go, he doesn't need to come back to school to get into better shape.
[/quote]

I meant to say he's one that is "considering" staying - over half the NBA GM's think he's staying
[/quote]

wouldn't it be hilarious if Philly tanks the crap out of the season (which is happening regardless), and then Dante Exum goes to a US college, and Parker/Wiggins/Embiid stay in school LOL

They may need to hold out Nerlens Noel another year and hire a hitman to break Thad Young's leg
[/quote]

Dante wants to be a laker from what I've read.

[tocino]

It's amazing how little separation there is between the 6-9 spots in the western conference. 1 or 2 losses and it feels like you can drop out of the playoff picture entirely!

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1393430276' post='8749366']
It's amazing how little separation there is between the 6-9 spots in the western conference. 1 or 2 losses and it feels like you can drop out of the playoff picture entirely!
[/quote]

crazy to think a team like the Warriors could miss the playoffs!

Crazy to think OKC might have to play GSW in round 1! I mean....would they be the best #8 seed ever?

I assume they'll eventually finish 5-6th,....but you're right, a couple of losses drops you a lot

[mnplayer]

[quote name='TheGameChanger' timestamp='1393390460' post='8747258'] [quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1393382539' post='8746306'] [quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1393263068' post='8734992'] [quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393262575' post='8734940'] I don't see there being any chance that Jabari stays. He's the most NBA ready as far as basketball skills go, he doesn't need to come back to school to get into better shape. [/quote] I meant to say he's one that is "considering" staying - over half the NBA GM's think he's staying [/quote] wouldn't it be hilarious if Philly tanks the crap out of the season (which is happening regardless), and then Dante Exum goes to a US college, and Parker/Wiggins/Embiid stay in school LOL They may need to hold out Nerlens Noel another year and hire a hitman to break Thad Young's leg [/quote] Dante wants to be a laker from what I've read. [/quote]

Saw this today too, some GM's think he might try and force his way to the Lakers. Stuff like refusing to workout for other teams to discourage them from drafting him, not sure how true any of it is but I doubt LA has the pieces to get him even if he did try to force through a trade to LA.

[TheGameChanger]

[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393468310' post='8754374']
[quote name='TheGameChanger' timestamp='1393390460' post='8747258'] [quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1393382539' post='8746306'] [quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1393263068' post='8734992'] [quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393262575' post='8734940'] I don't see there being any chance that Jabari stays. He's the most NBA ready as far as basketball skills go, he doesn't need to come back to school to get into better shape. [/quote] I meant to say he's one that is "considering" staying - over half the NBA GM's think he's staying [/quote] wouldn't it be hilarious if Philly tanks the crap out of the season (which is happening regardless), and then Dante Exum goes to a US college, and Parker/Wiggins/Embiid stay in school LOL They may need to hold out Nerlens Noel another year and hire a hitman to break Thad Young's leg [/quote] Dante wants to be a laker from what I've read. [/quote]

Saw this today too, some GM's think he might try and force his way to the Lakers. Stuff like refusing to workout for other teams to discourage them from drafting him, not sure how true any of it is but I doubt LA has the pieces to get him even if he did try to force through a trade to LA.
[/quote]

Lakers getting a top 4 pick will solve this. I personally think they'll end up with number 1 pick somehow.

[TheGameChanger]

Wouldn't be shocked if Westbrook is gone in the offseason if OKC don't make the Finals.

[baseballfrk8998]

Jeremylin.net

That place is classic. You guys will get a kick out of it.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='TheGameChanger' timestamp='1393480671' post='8755846']
Wouldn't be shocked if Westbrook is gone in the offseason if OKC don't make the Finals.
[/quote]

It would have to get Kevin Durant's blessing, which i can't imagine he would give, unless he and Russell aren't as good a friends as it seems, and they got some crazy package in return for him. Otherwise OKC would be the team that traded away 2 top 15 players in 3 years. I mean you could basically guarantee Durant would not be back when his contract is up. I can't think of many cases where a team has had the best record in a conference 2 years in a row (assuming), won the conference the year prior to that, and traded their second best player away for no real reason other then twitter

Teams (especially the Thunder) don't make decisions based on what casual fans, and Skip Bayless thinks. Zach Lowe wrote in his recent article that Twitter almost exploded when they lost to the Clippers with people saying the usual stuff, that they are better without him. Most of these people probably didn't even notice he only played 24 minutes in that game, wasn't involved in many of the real significant plays, and Reggie Jackson played 34 minutes and played terribly. But no, twitter says it's Westbrook's fault because he missed a late 3 (Jackson also missed a wildly irresponsible shot with the game tied, and Durant missed back to back open 3's with a couple of minutes left)

It must suck to be Westbrook, by all accounts he seems like a really good dude who is liked by teammates, but casual fans absolutely despise him for reasons unknown, yet love Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo who haven't had any more success

[mnplayer]

Have we really decided that OKC are a better team without Westbrook because of a 30ish game run without him where KD and the bench players played unbelievably out of their mind? There was no way Jackson, Lamb, and Durant were going to play that well the rest of the year.

[TheGameChanger]

I just can't see Westbrook and Durant winning a title together however that is my opinion with the team currently constructed. I'm Sure People will disagree. I hope for OKC case they can get rid of Perkins in the offseason and get a guy like Gorat or Jordon Hill in free agency along with another Shooter.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='mnplayer' timestamp='1393563864' post='8763116']
Have we really decided that OKC are a better team without Westbrook because of a 30ish game run without him where KD and the bench players played unbelievably out of their mind? There was no way Jackson, Lamb, and Durant were going to play that well the rest of the year.
[/quote]

Since Westbrook has come back (3 games) they have actually played Jackson more then Westbrook. They are bringing him back fairly slow. His fist 2 games back weren't great but he didn't play a ton. Against the Cavs he played really well....but in the 3 games he's played 23,24 and 29 minutes

It's just bad timing they've lost 3 in a row, but 2 of those games were against arguably top 5-6 teams in the league

It's also hard to win a title, trading a superstar because you don't win one is a big decision, really you're more likely to get worse then better. A lot of people said Lebron would not win a title (really they did) and Durant is still young

[somaplr]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1393554334' post='8762272']
[quote name='TheGameChanger' timestamp='1393480671' post='8755846']
Wouldn't be shocked if Westbrook is gone in the offseason if OKC don't make the Finals.
[/quote]

It would have to get Kevin Durant's blessing, which i can't imagine he would give, unless he and Russell aren't as good a friends as it seems, and they got some crazy package in return for him. Otherwise OKC would be the team that traded away 2 top 15 players in 3 years. I mean you could basically guarantee Durant would not be back when his contract is up. I can't think of many cases where a team has had the best record in a conference 2 years in a row (assuming), won the conference the year prior to that, and traded their second best player away for no real reason other then twitter

Teams (especially the Thunder) don't make decisions based on what casual fans, and Skip Bayless thinks. Zach Lowe wrote in his recent article that Twitter almost exploded when they lost to the Clippers with people saying the usual stuff, that they are better without him. Most of these people probably didn't even notice he only played 24 minutes in that game, wasn't involved in many of the real significant plays, and Reggie Jackson played 34 minutes and played terribly. But no, twitter says it's Westbrook's fault because he missed a late 3 (Jackson also missed a wildly irresponsible shot with the game tied, and Durant missed back to back open 3's with a couple of minutes left)

It must suck to be Westbrook, by all accounts he seems like a really good dude who is liked by teammates, but casual fans absolutely despise him for reasons unknown, yet love Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo who haven't had any more success
[/quote]

Well, how do you define success? Rondo has a chip and Paul is has been in the Top 5 of PER for like 6 years straight with 2 or 3 of those years being in the Top 3. I'm not arguing that Rondo is better than Westbrook, but I do believe Paul is - I'm not sure that's even debatable. If I had the opportunity to trade Westbrook for Paul straight up, I think I'd do it, and I think OKC would probably do it as well. It gives you the best PG in the game and probably 2-3 more years of him at a high level. That'd be tough to turn down for them.

I do believe Russell's organized choas is beautiful - and I love watching him play. He's just one of the, if not the most, classic 90/10 guys Simmons example. Where 90% of what he does is beautiful, but that 10% of what he doesn't do well is glaring and drives SOME people crazy. He's just one of those players that doesn't fit in the classic PG mold, and with Durant playing as well as he is - it's always tough to upset the apple cart. He's in a very tough situtation and doesn't deserve the amount of small criticism he gets.

Speaking of apple carts, Danny Granger to LA is huge for them with all the injuries they've had. This will be very interesting to see how he meshes.

[somaplr]

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

[gambit]

Caron Butler is now a member of the OKC Thunder. Excellent pick up adding toughness and depth.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1393611488' post='8765840']
Can't. Stop. Laughing.
[/quote]

that's amazing!!! LOL

i didn't see that one today

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1393604246' post='8765046']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1393554334' post='8762272']
[quote name='TheGameChanger' timestamp='1393480671' post='8755846']
Wouldn't be shocked if Westbrook is gone in the offseason if OKC don't make the Finals.
[/quote]

It would have to get Kevin Durant's blessing, which i can't imagine he would give, unless he and Russell aren't as good a friends as it seems, and they got some crazy package in return for him. Otherwise OKC would be the team that traded away 2 top 15 players in 3 years. I mean you could basically guarantee Durant would not be back when his contract is up. I can't think of many cases where a team has had the best record in a conference 2 years in a row (assuming), won the conference the year prior to that, and traded their second best player away for no real reason other then twitter

Teams (especially the Thunder) don't make decisions based on what casual fans, and Skip Bayless thinks. Zach Lowe wrote in his recent article that Twitter almost exploded when they lost to the Clippers with people saying the usual stuff, that they are better without him. Most of these people probably didn't even notice he only played 24 minutes in that game, wasn't involved in many of the real significant plays, and Reggie Jackson played 34 minutes and played terribly. But no, twitter says it's Westbrook's fault because he missed a late 3 (Jackson also missed a wildly irresponsible shot with the game tied, and Durant missed back to back open 3's with a couple of minutes left)

It must suck to be Westbrook, by all accounts he seems like a really good dude who is liked by teammates, but casual fans absolutely despise him for reasons unknown, yet love Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo who haven't had any more success
[/quote]

Well, how do you define success? Rondo has a chip and Paul is has been in the Top 5 of PER for like 6 years straight with 2 or 3 of those years being in the Top 3. I'm not arguing that Rondo is better than Westbrook, but I do believe Paul is - I'm not sure that's even debatable. If I had the opportunity to trade Westbrook for Paul straight up, I think I'd do it, and I think OKC would probably do it as well. It gives you the best PG in the game and probably 2-3 more years of him at a high level. That'd be tough to turn down for them.

I do believe Russell's organized choas is beautiful - and I love watching him play. He's just one of the, if not the most, classic 90/10 guys Simmons example. Where 90% of what he does is beautiful, but that 10% of what he doesn't do well is glaring and drives SOME people crazy. He's just one of those players that doesn't fit in the classic PG mold, and with Durant playing as well as he is - it's always tough to upset the apple cart. He's in a very tough situtation and doesn't deserve the amount of small criticism he gets.

Speaking of apple carts, Danny Granger to LA is huge for them with all the injuries they've had. This will be very interesting to see how he meshes.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with anything you said. I've said before Paul is a better point guard right now. All i meant was that no one really seems to criticize Paul, at least not to the degree that Russell gets hammered. I mean why doesn't CP3's playoff record get brought up more? People say the Thunder will never win with Westbrook, but are the Clippers winning the title every year? Is Mario Chalmers the best point guard in the game? Rondo has never led a top 10 (i think maybe even top 15) NBA offense, why doesn't that get brought up? But every year people say Westbrook for Rondo straight up is the best trade in the history of basketball. What is Westbrook doing that is so bad

Nothing against those guys, and i don't think NBA insiders or great writers like Zach Lowe are saying that. But it's just he takes a lot more critisism due to playing with Durant and the expectations. It's hard to win in a league with Lebron. They shouldn't blow up their team because they are losing to arguably one of the best players ever, or even a team like the Clippers that has arguably 2 of the top 10 players in the NBA

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='gambit' timestamp='1393627461' post='8767518']
Caron Butler is now a member of the OKC Thunder. Excellent pick up adding toughness and depth.
[/quote]

i thought it was a good move, he can shoot the ball and is a veteran. I mean even if he's a 6 inch taller Derek Fischer it won't hurt them

[TheGameChanger]

Granger to Clippers
Butler to OKC
Jimmer to Chicago (Looks Likely)