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Why does my D0 hybrid feel perfect but my D3 5 iron feels like a tennis racket?

 imabev ·  
imabevimabev Members  133WRX Points: 47Posts: 133 Fairways
Joined:  in WRX Club Techs #1

The D0 hybrid feels perfect to me - I can feel the club head in my hands more than any other club. Most of my irons at D2-D3 feel ok but nothing like the feel of the hybrid. I don't think it's a "mass" thing because my 3 and 5 wood are D3 and they feel light towards the head also.

It seems opposite to me that a D0 gives me more feeling of the club head. Is this how it works? How can I hunt down getting the same feel out of my irons?

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  • geochitowngeochitown Members  2395WRX Points: 368Handicap: 11Posts: 2,395 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #2

    what are the shafts that you are using in the hybrid and the 5 iron?

    swingweight feels tend to be different because of differing shaft weights

    absolute swingweight values doesn't transfer from irons to hybrids to woods, each tends to have their own sweet spot

    Posted:
    Lead Tape lovingly applied - Driver through GW
    TEE XCG7 Beta +1* to 11.5* - Testing at 43" w/ Matrix 7M3 stiff
    TEE XCG7 Beta 4W 16.5* - Matrix 8M2 Stiff
    TEE XCG7 Beta 22*H - Aldila Rogue 130 Black 85H TS
    TEE XCG7 Beta 25*H - Diamana Thump i465ct 4i shaft stiff 
    Wishon 560MC's 5-PW (27,31,35,39,43.5,48) at -1/2" length KBS Tour C-Taper Lite R
    Vokey SM4 52-08F S200
    Wishon HM wedges 56 and 60 Wishon Stepless steel Stiff
    SC Futura X5r 33' flownecked by Bastain-cerakote sniper gray-silver dots-white flange sight line-SS Flatso 2.0

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  • jvincentjvincent Members  1732WRX Points: 989Posts: 1,732 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #3

    Swingweight measures the ratio of weights on either side of the fulcrum. You can have a 200lb club that swingweights at D0.

    Total weight of the two clubs would be the first thing to look at. Extra heavy or light grips can also "fool" a swingweight scale.

    Posted:

    Cobra SZ 9* : Tour AD TP 7-S
    Cobra F9 Tour 4W : Tour AD TP 8-S
    Cobra ForgedTec 3-iron : Nippon Modus3 105-S
    Srixon Z785 4-PW : Nippon Modus3 120-S
    Cleveland RTX3 50, 54, 58 : Nippon 115-S Wedge
    Piretti Potenza 370g : Breakthrough Technology Stability Shaft - 34"

  • imabevimabev Members  133WRX Points: 47Posts: 133 Fairways
    Joined:  #4

    The Ping hybrid (#4) has a TFC 419 shaft S flex. The Callaway CF16 5i has a Nippon Tour 120 X flex. Both standard length, both with Lamkin Sonar mid size grips. Total weight of the hybrid is 370g, the 5i is 425g.

    Posted:
  • geochitowngeochitown Members  2395WRX Points: 368Handicap: 11Posts: 2,395 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #5

    your answer lies in the difference in shaft weights, total club heft

    TFC 419 Hybrid: soft regular, regular, stiff, x-stiff (weights ranging from 64g-77g)

    Nippon Tour 120X

    Posted:
    Lead Tape lovingly applied - Driver through GW
    TEE XCG7 Beta +1* to 11.5* - Testing at 43" w/ Matrix 7M3 stiff
    TEE XCG7 Beta 4W 16.5* - Matrix 8M2 Stiff
    TEE XCG7 Beta 22*H - Aldila Rogue 130 Black 85H TS
    TEE XCG7 Beta 25*H - Diamana Thump i465ct 4i shaft stiff 
    Wishon 560MC's 5-PW (27,31,35,39,43.5,48) at -1/2" length KBS Tour C-Taper Lite R
    Vokey SM4 52-08F S200
    Wishon HM wedges 56 and 60 Wishon Stepless steel Stiff
    SC Futura X5r 33' flownecked by Bastain-cerakote sniper gray-silver dots-white flange sight line-SS Flatso 2.0

  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #6

    SW values cant be used for compare of different clubs, thats what you have found out, and TOTAL weight is a more important parameter, but you dont specify play lengths either, only "standard", but look at length difference and do the math as "Grams pr inch" in total weight progression. Below 10 grams or above 22 grams is both "way off" and want feel the same.

    You have 55 grams difference here, but they are most likely not 5.5 inch apart, (10 grams pr inch), and with the steepest progression they must be 2.5 inch apart (22 grams pr inch). Most players fits into a total weight progression of 14 to 18 grams pr inch play length.

    14 grams pr inch = 3.92 inch length difference,/ 18 grams pr inch = 3.05 inch length difference, so if the clubs you compare has a shorter or longer difference than this numbers, its shaft weight progression that off and then they will not feel like the same no matter what we do.

    Again SW values is useless for compare of different clubs, just like flex labels is useless for compare of different shafts.

    Posted:

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  • imabevimabev Members  133WRX Points: 47Posts: 133 Fairways
    Joined:  #7

    So then if we strip this down a bit to get to a starting point: If I love the feel of the hybrid at 9.375 grams/inch (375g/40"), should I use that as a starting point and progress 14-18 gr/in?

    Incidentally the 5i is 38.375" at 425g = 11.07gr/in. If we use the 14-18g rule/per inch from the hybrid the 5i should be 23g-29g heavier than the hybrid, or about 30 g lighter than what it is now.

    Posted:
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 2, 2020 2:46pm #8

    No...your Hybrid is 40.00", your #5i is 38.375 Difference is only 1.625

    ....and you have 55 gram progression on only 1.625" =33.84 grams pr inch, so you are WAY outside the MAX of 22

    = Iron weight is too high, or Hybrid too low, so its seem like that #5 iron have a shafts thats at least 12 grams higher than it should have been to feel more like the hybrid.


    THINK IRONS,in a classic set we have the same grip, and the same "constant wgt shafts", its only heads that change in weight with 7 grams pr club who becomes 14 grams pr inch....

    The progression rate you have here is 33.84 grams pr inch, who would have been 17 grams instead of 7 grams between clubs in a set, so your irons and hybrids is very far off each other. If we have uses a shaft like AMT we would see a progression rate where about 3 grams came from the shaft and 7 from the head = 10 grams between clubs or 20 grams pr inch...yours is 33.84 grams pr inch...progression is too steep.

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

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  • imabevimabev Members  133WRX Points: 47Posts: 133 Fairways
    Joined:  #9

    OK then I have some issues. I just weighed and remeasured my clubs (slight change in the 5i) to get a gr/in ratio idea and some of the progressions are inconsistent. I built these clubs myself and I have also added lead tape to the heads of 6i through PW. I attached a spreadsheet of my club length and weight. "Spread" is what I think should be the calculation for progression between clubs of the next shortest club in g/in.

    Should there be consistent progressions between woods and hybrids and irons, or should they be treated separately? What should my first steps be?


    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #10

    "should" is a useless word here, each club in the bag is really a fitting object of its own, but we love "short cuts and systems", but your bag is a big mess, and i cant really help you to fix that but here is a few observations.

    Lets start with both ends, you got 325 grams to 480 grams over 10.125 inches = 154 grams / 10.125 = 15.2 grams pr inch...this is within that numbers i gave you of 14 to 18 grams pr inch as TW progression

    Your favorite club??? is the hybrid thats 40" and 370 grams

    No matter direction you try to find a system, there is non in your bag, except that the longest and shortest clubs ends with a progression within the norm range, the others is off an quite a bit.

    Example there is only 0.25" from your 3W to your 5W (norm is 1.0"), and they are 10 grams apart ( all seems to be head weight) who gives a crazy difference to SW value and a total weight progression of 40 grams pr inch between those 2 clubs, so the lights is blinking, something is way off.

    Why is there only 0.25 from your #7 to #8 , and then its 0.75 from #8 to #9?...#7 and #8 has the same weight too, your GW should have a higher weight than PW...

    i see mostly lack of logic and clubs with a weight they probably should not have, they bump up and down, and way to much to be a good fit.

    Back to basics...if total weight progression is below 10 grams or above 22 grams pr inch, something is off (norm area 14 to 18 grams pr inch), your average (longest and shortest) is 15.2 grams and looks fine, but the rest dont belong to that slope, neither does the club who seems to be your favorite (Hybrid), so maybe all the others is off?

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

  • imabevimabev Members  133WRX Points: 47Posts: 133 Fairways
    Joined:  #11

    Thanks for your candor, Howard! Lots of good info there. I have a swingweight/club scale but I am measuring club length manually. I went back and remeasured my iron lengths and it changed things slightly but not enough to matter significantly. I am going to remove lead tape and reweigh irons and test it out at the range. The primary goal was to chase swing weight but I am learning there is more to it than that.

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #12


    Swing weight is a useless parameter, its only useful to make a set of irons, a set of hybrids, a set of woods, but we cant move it between groups of clubs, and we shall never have it as a target. We must tune up one club in a set without even thinking of SW values, when the club works as we want it, we can measure it to get a short cut for the other. If we do it the other way and let the scale guide us, we are more stupid then the scale is, and the scale is as stupid as anything can be, it was NOT designed as a oracle or guide, its made to help us to match a club that already works. SW values dont represent a certain resistance or feel of head weight either, so simply forget that scale to judge clubs with.

    It all starts with play length, then total weight (and progression), then comes balance, and if we use the SW system, we always have to do the testing first, tune up, then measure the SW value, we can never make this right by shooting for a SW value and think "D3" is my preference....thats total lack of understanding of what that scale does, so those who has "D3" as preference, better be more specific than that and add "in irons using this play length, that shaft and that grip", if not they simply have no clue, or preference and have been fooling them self for along time. We can build a 1000 combinations all to "D3", and non of them will feel the same.

    Since that hybrid seems good, you have a case where that SW scale could be used, and thats to build another hybrid.

    First alter Total weight progression to 14-18 grams pr inch play length difference, then make the SW value D0, then weight and balance will be a good copy of the club you got, thats who we cane use that instrument, its useless for most other tasks we seen it used for like when someone change to MID size grips and think the scale tells him to add head weight, but it dont,. its the user who tries to use the SW scale for a task it was never designed to do and cant help out with.

    Posted:

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    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

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