Match Play - Handicaps

[hbear]

Tees for sure make a difference. This is where I believe the course rating can get skewed as they consider a scratch player to average about 250 off the tee, etc.
If you are a better player that can hit it well, you are certainly better equipped to play way back at 7000+ yards vs. a short hitter that is "Scratch" from 6400 yards who is going to struggle playing a "Scratch" player from the back tee. I get how course rating is supposed to address this, but I often see the shorter player struggle more than the additional 2-3 shots the course rating suggest they should. Especially if it now brings more trouble in play off the tee or they can no longer cut off doglegs etc. We've got plenty of guys at our course that can shoot even or under par from 6600 yards, but struggle to break 75 from 7000 due to the added length. Conversely the guys that play well at 7000 yards easily shoot the same or often better as they move up tee boxes.

Along those lines, put your "12" boss on the back and I'm almost certain you'll find the match to be much more in your favor. Proximity to the hole dramatically decreases as handicap goes up. Hitting 4 irons and hybrids into greens makes for a much longer day than hitting 6 and 7 irons.

[vtnerf]

[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438835018' post='12087592']
One thing that I ithink has a bigger impact and works for or against players is the tees they play. I have decent length and this works out to me shooting similar scores regardless of the tees I play from because I end up laying up on certain holes instead of going as aggressive when I play the forward tees just based on positioning. Since that is the case, my handicap would be higher if I played the forward tees, kind of a weird thing about my game. Might just be the set up of my home course as well. But I do think back tees will deflate handicaps a little more than normal.

I am like you and don't get usually more than 2 or 3 birdies a round but get a lot of pars and not more than 4-5 bogeys a round. If I get hot I shoot a few under par, even at a course with like a 74-75 rating. This makes my handicap pretty volatile.

I really was not trying to be fascetious but honestly wanted to understand how it can be fair. I think against most players it will be more evenly matched like everyone is saying. I think I may be playing against one of the outliers, lol
[/quote]

Ok, so you say you can get hot and shoot a few under par on a round. Let's say that's 4 birds and 2 bogeys.
You also say that your boss will have 10 pars and 8 bogey or worse holes. First off, that's not a 12...but we'll go with that scenario anyway.
If he's getting 12, there are 4 holes, in theory, that he wins with the pars that he's getting a pop on.
ON the flip side, there are 4 holes that, in theory, you are winning because of the birds you have.
Sounds pretty even so far....
That leaves 10 holes. You are going to have a few bogeys, and he's going to have 4 holes that have bogey or worse. So that tips the scales by 2 in your favor.
End of the day, you shoot 70. He shoots 82, and you close him out on 16.

This isn't going to be the case every time. You aren't going to shoot 70, and he's capable of shooting worse than that any time out. Believe it or not, the match is fair because of the system that has be laid out. Just because he's volatile doesn't mean he's favored every time out. His handicap is based on the rounds he has played. And those holes, good and bad, are accounted for in that calc.

Say one of the blowup holes is on a hole where he gets one of the 12 strokes. Well, he just wasted the stroke, and you won the hole. Say he blows up on the #17 cap hole, you can win it with a bogey without even giving him a stroke, a free one for you. Remember, you are going to win EVERY hole. And you aren't going to win every match. If you are that afraid of hi, either ensure his cap is accurate or don't play him. Going in thinking you are defeated, you've already given him the advantage.

[cb24]

[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438862149' post='12088362']
[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438835018' post='12087592']
One thing that I ithink has a bigger impact and works for or against players is the tees they play. I have decent length and this works out to me shooting similar scores regardless of the tees I play from because I end up laying up on certain holes instead of going as aggressive when I play the forward tees just based on positioning. Since that is the case, my handicap would be higher if I played the forward tees, kind of a weird thing about my game. Might just be the set up of my home course as well. But I do think back tees will deflate handicaps a little more than normal.

I am like you and don't get usually more than 2 or 3 birdies a round but get a lot of pars and not more than 4-5 bogeys a round. If I get hot I shoot a few under par, even at a course with like a 74-75 rating. This makes my handicap pretty volatile.

I really was not trying to be fascetious but honestly wanted to understand how it can be fair. I think against most players it will be more evenly matched like everyone is saying. I think I may be playing against one of the outliers, lol
[/quote]

Ok, so you say you can get hot and shoot a few under par on a round. Let's say that's 4 birds and 2 bogeys.
You also say that your boss will have 10 pars and 8 bogey or worse holes. First off, that's not a 12...but we'll go with that scenario anyway.
If he's getting 12, there are 4 holes, in theory, that he wins with the pars that he's getting a pop on.
ON the flip side, there are 4 holes that, in theory, you are winning because of the birds you have.
Sounds pretty even so far....
That leaves 10 holes. You are going to have a few bogeys, and he's going to have 4 holes that have bogey or worse. So that tips the scales by 2 in your favor.
End of the day, you shoot 70. He shoots 82, and you close him out on 16.

This isn't going to be the case every time. You aren't going to shoot 70, and he's capable of shooting worse than that any time out. Believe it or not, the match is fair because of the system that has be laid out. Just because he's volatile doesn't mean he's favored every time out. His handicap is based on the rounds he has played. And those holes, good and bad, are accounted for in that calc.

Say one of the blowup holes is on a hole where he gets one of the 12 strokes. Well, he just wasted the stroke, and you won the hole. Say he blows up on the #17 cap hole, you can win it with a bogey without even giving him a stroke, a free one for you. Remember, you are going to win EVERY hole. And you aren't going to win every match. If you are that afraid of hi, either ensure his cap is accurate or don't play him. Going in thinking you are defeated, you've already given him the advantage.
[/quote]

4 doubles and 4-5 bogeys is a 12 on the course we play, don't even know why you would try to argue that.

Also if I am only shooting that lower score 20% of the time, explain how you can expect that more consistently? It 100% matters how you get to the handicap which includes tees that are played and other factors. It's naive to say otherwise. There always outliers and some are consistently outliers. Unfortunately for me I play against one of the outliers.

[cb24]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1438839474' post='12087770']
Tees for sure make a difference. This is where I believe the course rating can get skewed as they consider a scratch player to average about 250 off the tee, etc.
If you are a better player that can hit it well, you are certainly better equipped to play way back at 7000+ yards vs. a short hitter that is "Scratch" from 6400 yards who is going to struggle playing a "Scratch" player from the back tee. I get how course rating is supposed to address this, but I often see the shorter player struggle more than the additional 2-3 shots the course rating suggest they should. Especially if it now brings more trouble in play off the tee or they can no longer cut off doglegs etc. We've got plenty of guys at our course that can shoot even or under par from 6600 yards, but struggle to break 75 from 7000 due to the added length. Conversely the guys that play well at 7000 yards easily shoot the same or often better as they move up tee boxes.

Along those lines, put your "12" boss on the back and I'm almost certain you'll find the match to be much more in your favor. Proximity to the hole dramatically decreases as handicap goes up. Hitting 4 irons and hybrids into greens makes for a much longer day than hitting 6 and 7 irons.
[/quote]

I agree with this the most. For it to be evened out properly we should probably play the back tees and the forward tees every other time. I am at a huge advantage from the back tees but struggle to really take advantage of the closer proximity (end up with maybe 1 or two more birdies) but the further away impacts the 12 more.

[vtnerf]

[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438918761' post='12093912']
There always outliers and some are [b]consistently outliers[/b]. Unfortunately for me I play against one of the outliers.
[/quote]
Those are called sandbaggers.
My advice is to not play your boss because he's in your head and you've already expected to lose before you even tee it up.

[ZPVB]

Sometimes playing further back can be an advantage because you have more room for misses. I shot 72 this past weekend from 6900 and 74 from 6500.

[YoungJedi]

I highly guarantee 99% of higher handicap players don't use ESC. if they get a 10, they enter it in their score rather than a 7 or 8 per ESC.

That's why people bag. They shoot 100 because of a bunch of holes that put them with quads and whatnot...but don't take out the extra strokes per ESC. that's why I don't play handicap stuff.

Straight medal play for me.