Match Play - Handicaps

[ZPVB]

I wanted some advice on how to talk the professional at my shop to change the handicap format for match play events. As of right now we have a system that in any match play event everyone plays 100% handicap and strokes off the low man. 9 out of 10 times I'm the low man in the group.

 

This has led to absurd situations where I am giving a stroke to guys on 10 to 15 holes, including par 3s. I understand playing 100% handicap in stroke play because on some holes my competitors will make 7s and 8s and the worst I will shoot is bogey, but match play completely makes the higher handicappers' "big scores" a wash.

 

I've suggested that we play 70% handicap to try to curb the absurd results or we all play off of par, but I've been told that "this is just how it is supposed to be done."

 

As an example in our recent club championship I played an 18 hole match play against a 14 handicap. I played as a four handicap, so on ten holes after he hit his drive he was lying zero. He beat me 2 and 3 (the guy was also five over after 16 holes to my three over after 16 holes, so it was obvious he was a pretty big sandbagger, he went on to win the championship).

[hbear]

I feel your pain, but the stats show that even at 100% caps, the lower handicap golfer still has the advantage.

Strokes should be allotted against the low man, that is in effect to give the higher capper the stroke on the hardest hole (greatest differential between skilled and unskilled golfers) where they will need it the most.

You can argue the variance in scores as well, but the math still shows the lower capper still has the advantage....unfortunately as the low guy you will HAVE to play to your cap in order to compete.

What you are bringing up has not as much to do with handicapping, but more with sandbagging......we know there really is only one way to completely eliminate that. (And that is playing heads up) However I find those that advocate that tend to be the low guys already....and unless they are really good, their tune changes in a hurry if they are grouped with a bunch of +3 or +4 golfers.

I know a few guys that play off a 3 or 4 and HATE giving shots to the higher guys. Stating something to the effect of "they should practice more, they should play better, and why do I get penalized for getting better).....however those same guys cry foul when they don't get shots vs. the scratch or plus guys.....

[ZPVB]

I guess the real issue is weeding out the sandbaggers. It just seems to me that full handicaps in Match Play is inherently unfair. I'm 10 shots better on stroke play than a 14, hell I'd give a 14, 15 strokes in stroke play, but when I have to birdie to halve holes, it just not fun.

[duffer987]

Hopefully he beat you 3 & 2 and not 2 & 3, or you left some holes out there

As far as talking to your pro, the "I don't like it so..." argument isn't going to fly. You need to poll your club mates first and then present a proposal from a group to show it's more than just one guy having a whinge. Maybe ask them to continue at 100% for the official tourney results, but in parallel track the events if they used 85-90% and see if results would be any different. Might turn out it's just a bunch of hullabaloo for nothing and results would largely be the same. 70% just sounds like you want a large advantage as you typically give strokes.

Net events are what they are though. In the end I'd say either stomach the bad/questionable results or don't play.

[hbear]

To that same effect, there are holes where you will win with pars or even halve with bogey....

If caps are legit, it should make for a good match.

I used to think the same way as you, but math, stats and probabilities have changed it. I still don't play in net events though; not because I don't believe in handicaps...I just don't want to deal with baggers. (I've had matches where I was -3 GROSS playing off zero and still down at the turn!!)

[ZPVB]

It was 2 and 3, although I almost left after ten holes when the guy (the 14) I played against was +1 (the dude hit a 160 yard bunker shot to three feet for birdie). I think what I'll propose to the club is better flighting, that is a max difference between strokes between competitors.

[gaikentm]

I work as an Assistant Pro Shop manager as my summer job(teacher full time). We have the same problem in our 2 man men's league. This is the solution we have done to resolve the issue.
1. We went to 90% of handicaps. We play 9 holes so this averaged out to 1 hole less of the person getting a shot.
2. We went to an extra flight to tighten up the dispersion between the top 2some and the bottom 2some.
3. We started to adjust handicaps for the league based on league scoring after week 3. This was a massive help and really brought people to where they should have been. I play with many of these guys and they blew up there caps to be better positioned to win.
As of talking to your pro approach with a group data approach and with a high ranking person in the club that always looks good. It sounds like if you guys just adjusted your handicaps to league performance you will be good. Let me know if you need any other ideas but I think you guys can fix the problem easily with this. We all have been sandbagged and it sucks this will hopefully even the playing field.

[vtnerf]

[quote name='ZPVB' timestamp='1433787763' post='11712248']
This has led to absurd situations where I am giving a stroke to guys on 10 to 15 holes, including par 3s. I understand playing 100% handicap in stroke play because on some holes my competitors will make 7s and 8s and the worst I will shoot is bogey, but match play completely makes the higher handicappers' "big scores" a wash.

I've suggested that we play 70% handicap to try to curb the absurd results or we all play off of par, but I've been told that "this is just how it is supposed to be done."

As an example in our recent club championship I played an 18 hole match play against a 14 handicap. I played as a four handicap, so on ten holes after he hit his drive he was lying zero. He beat me 2 and 3 (the guy was also five over after 16 holes to my three over after 16 holes, so it was obvious he was a pretty big sandbagger, he went on to win the championship).
[/quote]

Why is this absurd? Its the system. See page 15. [url="http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handi_Ref_Manual.pdf"]http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handi_Ref_Manual.pdf[/url]

And, like was said above, it shouldn't be 2 & 3. The first number is the number of holes up, and the second numbers is the number of holes remaining. If it was 2 & 3, he was 2 up with 3 holes to go. You still had a chance to tie or win.

Just because you are the lower cap does not automatically mean that you win. As they say, that's why they play the game. You lost, 3&2 hopefully, but it could have easily gone the other way. Don't bash an entire system because you lost a single match. You still have to go out and beat your opponent, no matter the number of strokes.

[ZPVB]

It is absurd to decide a club championship in match play with full handicaps.

[vtnerf]

[quote name='ZPVB' timestamp='1433856647' post='11717888']
It is absurd to decide a club championship in match play with full handicaps.
[/quote]
If the club championship is set up as match play, then it's not absurd. Check the link I posted. You know, the USGA Handicap System Reference Guide.
Full handicaps is how it's done.

Now, a better argument on your end may be that it should be straight up medal play be flights, for the true club championship. Many of the clubs around here have both competitions, but the club champ is determined by 36 holes of stroke play, no caps, just flighted. The match play with caps determines another "trophy" but is still played under the guidelines of the USGA system. Doesn't seem absurd to me.

[seven dewey]

In my hometown, the way they ran the club championship was pretty good. Day 1 they played stroke play to determine flights, so you had to shoot your way into the championship flight, assuming that is where you wanted to be. Then they just flighted everything on down to the last flight and day 2 was basically just a long day of 9-hole match play...no handicaps. People never sandbagged day one, cause nobody wanted to play in a worse flight than they should be in just to try to win that flight.

[seajohn]

[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1433853453' post='11717620']
Just because you are the lower cap does not automatically mean that you win. As they say, that's why they play the game. You lost, 3&2 hopefully, but it could have easily gone the other way. Don't bash an entire system because you lost a single match. You still have to go out and beat your opponent, no matter the number of strokes.
[/quote]

If your opponent a good enough sandbagger, you have no chance to beat them.

[rkristopheranderson]

If it is a club championship, then I agree that playing full handicaps in Match play out of the gate is frustrating. As others have suggested, it would be preferable to have a weekend of qualifying via match play and then flight match play (I played some county tourneys set up like this and the people who won the title were the people who should have been playing for the title--I never contended, but hAd a blast slugging it out in my flight).

My club is trying a month long match play tourney and our pro set it up as twotourneys in one: each match is both a gross and net match. I guess the sandbagger and the sticks will be happy!

[cb24]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1433791140' post='11712694']
I feel your pain, but the stats show that even at 100% caps, the lower handicap golfer still has the advantage.

Strokes should be allotted against the low man, that is in effect to give the higher capper the stroke on the hardest hole (greatest differential between skilled and unskilled golfers) where they will need it the most.

You can argue the variance in scores as well, but the math still shows the lower capper still has the advantage....unfortunately as the low guy you will HAVE to play to your cap in order to compete.

What you are bringing up has not as much to do with handicapping, but more with sandbagging......we know there really is only one way to completely eliminate that. (And that is playing heads up) However I find those that advocate that tend to be the low guys already....and unless they are really good, their tune changes in a hurry if they are grouped with a bunch of +3 or +4 golfers.

I know a few guys that play off a 3 or 4 and HATE giving shots to the higher guys. Stating something to the effect of "they should practice more, they should play better, and why do I get penalized for getting better).....however those same guys cry foul when they don't get shots vs. the scratch or plus guys.....
[/quote]

What stats are you referring to? I am curious. I think what people forget about match play is it really matters what type of golfer you are playing against. If you are playing with a guy who blows up on 4 holes a round and keeps it together for most of the rest and their handicap is double digit because of that then you are screwed. I know from experience. I am a 0 and play against my boss who is a 12. Course handicap brings it down to 10 stroke holes for him. My handicap is a lot lower based on 4 hot rounds (which most people don't understand handicap is designed to show potential). For me to beat my handicap I have to have a really good round. For him he gets hot on a few holes and can beat his handicap. It's not fair imo especial since a blowup hole just hurts him to lose 1 hole. If it was stroke play the effect would be much greater. Help me understand how that leads to a fair match?

Side question, does anyone play with pushes where tied holes keep stacking until someone wins? We have played that and it crushes me.

[vtnerf]

Just because you have the lower cap doesn't mean that you automatically should win. On the flip side, a higher cap shouldn't be expected to win because he only has a few blow up holes, and plays the rest steady. (Keep in mind that statistically speaking, those blow up holes should occur on the lower cap holes, so they should be won by the lower cap...)



Taken from another site...
[url="http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/54859/width/639/height/244"]http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/54859/width/639/height/244[/url]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]Just two bell curves aligned at their 25% line. As we know, since our handicap is the best 10 of the last 20, the better half of our scores count (the top 50%). Among the top 50%, half will be better and half will be slightly worse than the average.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]So the thinner bell curve shows the distribution above or below net par for the low handicapper while the wider bell curve shows the distribution above or below net par for the high handicapper.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]Given a large enough sample size, it's almost guaranteed that a high handicapper will post a lower net score than a low handicapper. It's even [i]more[/i] certain that a higher handicapper will post a HIGHER score than a low handicapper, again given a large enough sample size.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]But one-on-one, if both handicappers have followed the rules for handicapping, the match should be fairly even with a slight edge to the lower handicapper.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]I used to play in a skins game against a bunch of high handicappers. The odds of them shooting an exceptional score for ONE HOLE were incredibly high. I'd often have to make eagle just to wipe out a guy in my own [i]foursome[/i].[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
Then there's this:[/background][/size][/color][color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[url="http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/picking.html"]http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/picking.html[/url][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
And also check out this:[/background][/size][/color][color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[url="http://probablegolfinstruction.com/Statistics/team2.htm"]http://probablegolfinstruction.com/Statistics/team2.htm[/url][/background][/size][/color]

[cb24]

[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438788592' post='12083042']
Just because you have the lower cap doesn't mean that you automatically should win. On the flip side, a higher cap shouldn't be expected to win because he only has a few blow up holes, and plays the rest steady. (Keep in mind that statistically speaking, those blow up holes should occur on the lower cap holes, so they should be won by the lower cap...)



Taken from another site...
[url="http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/54859/width/639/height/244"]http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/54859/width/639/height/244[/url]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]Just two bell curves aligned at their 25% line. As we know, since our handicap is the best 10 of the last 20, the better half of our scores count (the top 50%). Among the top 50%, half will be better and half will be slightly worse than the average.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]So the thinner bell curve shows the distribution above or below net par for the low handicapper while the wider bell curve shows the distribution above or below net par for the high handicapper.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]Given a large enough sample size, it's almost guaranteed that a high handicapper will post a lower net score than a low handicapper. It's even [i]more[/i] certain that a higher handicapper will post a HIGHER score than a low handicapper, again given a large enough sample size.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]But one-on-one, if both handicappers have followed the rules for handicapping, the match should be fairly even with a slight edge to the lower handicapper.[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[color=#0000cd]I used to play in a skins game against a bunch of high handicappers. The odds of them shooting an exceptional score for ONE HOLE were incredibly high. I'd often have to make eagle just to wipe out a guy in my own [i]foursome[/i].[/color][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
Then there's this:[/background][/size][/color][color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[url="http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/picking.html"]http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/picking.html[/url][/background][/size][/color]
[color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
And also check out this:[/background][/size][/color][color=#181818][size=3][background=rgb(253, 252, 250)]
[url="http://probablegolfinstruction.com/Statistics/team2.htm"]http://probablegolfinstruction.com/Statistics/team2.htm[/url][/background][/size][/color]
[/quote]

So are you saying all handicaps are equal if they have the same number for match play? Also I am not saying the low should win every time, but it should be a fair match.

[vtnerf]

That stats show it's a fair match. In fact, it shows that the low has a slight advantage when playing at 90% of cap, and low man at 0, only giving shots to the higher cap.

[crich88848]

In my club they max out index at 21.5. This usually plays to the advantage of everyone sitting right around that index. They get the maximum amount of strokes, and never have to give any strokes.

[vtnerf]

[quote name='crich88848' timestamp='1438800954' post='12084324']
In my club they max out index at 21.5. This usually plays to the advantage of everyone sitting right around that index. They get the maximum amount of strokes, and never have to give any strokes.
[/quote]
Why do you say this? They have that index because of their scoring history. (As long as they aren't baggers, but that's another discussion.) It's not like they randomly assigned the cap to these players. And they don't give strokes because their cap is higher than anyone else's.

[cb24]

[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438793514' post='12083570']
That stats show it's a fair match. In fact, it shows that the low has a slight advantage when playing at 90% of cap, and low man at 0, only giving shots to the higher cap.
[/quote]

How did the stats represent someone who blows up on a few holes in match play? I ask honestly because I didn't see that in there. There was a listing of the average players but not all averages are applicable or else there wouldnt be above or below average.

[vtnerf]

[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438805673' post='12084810']
[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438793514' post='12083570']
That stats show it's a fair match. In fact, it shows that the low has a slight advantage when playing at 90% of cap, and low man at 0, only giving shots to the higher cap.
[/quote]

How did the stats represent someone who blows up on a few holes in match play? I ask honestly because I didn't see that in there. There was a listing of the average players but not all averages are applicable or else there wouldnt be above or below average.
[/quote]

It shows their handicap. Not how they arrive there. And honestly, that really doesn't matter, because that's already factored into the handicap. Just the cap that matters.
Under ESC, if a 12 has 3 quads per round, they can't post them for handicapping purposes (unless they are on par 3's because 7 is the max score.)

[crich88848]

[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438802254' post='12084454']
[quote name='crich88848' timestamp='1438800954' post='12084324']
In my club they max out index at 21.5. This usually plays to the advantage of everyone sitting right around that index. They get the maximum amount of strokes, and never have to give any strokes.
[/quote]
Why do you say this? They have that index because of their scoring history. (As long as they aren't baggers, but that's another discussion.) It's not like they randomly assigned the cap to these players. And they don't give strokes because their cap is higher than anyone else's.
[/quote]

I meant because the handicaps that fall above them have to play at a lower index then they really are. During match play the max handicap they allow is 21.5. So anyone that is above that has to play at that lower index. I should've been more clear. I fully understand the handicap system and agree with it. I play in a club that had plus handicaps all the way up to 35.

[cb24]

[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438806522' post='12084892']
[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438805673' post='12084810']
[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438793514' post='12083570']
That stats show it's a fair match. In fact, it shows that the low has a slight advantage when playing at 90% of cap, and low man at 0, only giving shots to the higher cap.
[/quote]

How did the stats represent someone who blows up on a few holes in match play? I ask honestly because I didn't see that in there. There was a listing of the average players but not all averages are applicable or else there wouldnt be above or below average.
[/quote]

It shows their handicap. Not how they arrive there. And honestly, that really doesn't matter, because that's already factored into the handicap. Just the cap that matters.
Under ESC, if a 12 has 3 quads per round, they can't post them for handicapping purposes (unless they are on par 3's because 7 is the max score.)
[/quote]

It wouldn't properly account for someone who has a few doubles and triples a round and a lot of pars. They would have a significant advantage in match play over stroke play. That's just what my boss is and it sucks to play against in match play.

[hbear]

Also this article sums up some of what was posted.

http://www.scottishgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/Myths-and-Misconceptions1.pdf

Skip to Page 11 for the match play summery. Similar stats as Dean Knuth.

As posted, erratic players (blow up big then shoot pretty good) are already covered in the results (which is what really matters). In your example you assume the low guy plays well on the holes the higher guy blows up on. In reality it's just as probable the low guy cards a relatively big score on that same hole to win or tie. (bogey beats net double, or double ties net double). Over the course of 18 holes it usually evens out....and of course with stats the more often the matches occur the single round variability gets reduced to show the low guy has the advantage.

[hbear]

[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438823617' post='12086526']
[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438806522' post='12084892']
[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438805673' post='12084810']
[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438793514' post='12083570']
That stats show it's a fair match. In fact, it shows that the low has a slight advantage when playing at 90% of cap, and low man at 0, only giving shots to the higher cap.
[/quote]

How did the stats represent someone who blows up on a few holes in match play? I ask honestly because I didn't see that in there. There was a listing of the average players but not all averages are applicable or else there wouldnt be above or below average.
[/quote]

It shows their handicap. Not how they arrive there. And honestly, that really doesn't matter, because that's already factored into the handicap. Just the cap that matters.
Under ESC, if a 12 has 3 quads per round, they can't post them for handicapping purposes (unless they are on par 3's because 7 is the max score.)
[/quote]

It wouldn't properly account for someone who has a few doubles and triples a round and a lot of pars. They would have a significant advantage in match play over stroke play. That's just what my boss is and it sucks to play against in match play.
[/quote]

It is accounted for. On the holes your boss blows up on, you can also win by playing bad. He's gifted you those holes in which it gets evened out by him beating you on others. I'm sure there are holes where he makes net birdie to your bogey....so the stroke didn't really factor on those holes. In the end it washes out.

Cap is certainly potential, you posting 4 low rounds brings your cap down. Problem is less about the capping system (assuming your boss is not a bagger) but more likely your inability to play at a level close enough to your cap/potential.

[cb24]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1438825929' post='12086786']
[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438823617' post='12086526']
[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438806522' post='12084892']
[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438805673' post='12084810']
[quote name='vtnerf' timestamp='1438793514' post='12083570']
That stats show it's a fair match. In fact, it shows that the low has a slight advantage when playing at 90% of cap, and low man at 0, only giving shots to the higher cap.
[/quote]

How did the stats represent someone who blows up on a few holes in match play? I ask honestly because I didn't see that in there. There was a listing of the average players but not all averages are applicable or else there wouldnt be above or below average.
[/quote]

It shows their handicap. Not how they arrive there. And honestly, that really doesn't matter, because that's already factored into the handicap. Just the cap that matters.
Under ESC, if a 12 has 3 quads per round, they can't post them for handicapping purposes (unless they are on par 3's because 7 is the max score.)
[/quote]

It wouldn't properly account for someone who has a few doubles and triples a round and a lot of pars. They would have a significant advantage in match play over stroke play. That's just what my boss is and it sucks to play against in match play.
[/quote]

It is accounted for. On the holes your boss blows up on, you can also win by playing bad. He's gifted you those holes in which it gets evened out by him beating you on others. I'm sure there are holes where he makes net birdie to your bogey....so the stroke didn't really factor on those holes. In the end it washes out.

Cap is certainly potential, you posting 4 low rounds brings your cap down. Problem is less about the capping system (assuming your boss is not a bagger) but more likely your inability to play at a level close enough to your cap/potential.
[/quote]

So lets just do the math. A 12 that has 3 doubles and a triple every round also gets 1 birdie a round. That means on 8 holes he is shooting above par and 10 holes shooting par or better. How does that even out properly if he is getting strokes on 12 holes? Please help me understand because that scenario is not properly accounted for in match play versus stroke play. That is just reality.

I agree that I need to play to my potential better but doesn't it seem like its unfairly hurting me also that my handicap is a lot lower from the few good rounds? People talk about the handicap system like its so perfect, in the real world it's anything but that. But hey this is the Internet not the real world

[Bushwood Country Club]

[quote name='ZPVB' timestamp='1433792315' post='11712846']
It was 2 and 3, although I almost left after ten holes when the guy (the 14) I played against was +1 (the dude hit a 160 yard bunker shot to three feet for birdie). I think what I'll propose to the club is better flighting, that is a max difference between strokes between competitors.
[/quote]
I thnk what an earlier commenter meant is that "2 and 3" means he was up 2 with 3 to play - so you should still be playing. Otherwise, it's "3 and 2"...

[hbear]

[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438828137' post='12087014']
So lets just do the math. A 12 that has 3 doubles and a triple every round also gets 1 birdie a round. That means on 8 holes he is shooting above par and 10 holes shooting par or better. How does that even out properly if he is getting strokes on 12 holes? Please help me understand because that scenario is not properly accounted for in match play versus stroke play. That is just reality.

I agree that I need to play to my potential better but doesn't it seem like its unfairly hurting me also that my handicap is a lot lower from the few good rounds? People talk about the handicap system like its so perfect, in the real world it's anything but that. But hey this is the Internet not the real world [/quote]

I never said the handicap system is perfect....just that literally data on over 100k of recorded rounds (which include examples of players like you mention, vanity cappers as well) show that over time (e.g. Not just one round) the lower capper has the advantage. The KEY is over multiple data points/rounds. In one round anything can happen.

I agree on your proposed math, you better play well that day. However it is no different than the scratch player that theoretically makes 3 doubles and 6 birdies. Guess what? Over the course of multiple rounds that guy doesn't average 6 birdies a round. Nor do I suspect your 12 makes a birdie, a wack of pars NO bogeys and everything else is doubles and triples every round.

I'm a true 0.0 index right now and I only average 1.6 birdies a round, just under than 11pars, just under than 5 bogey, and the rest others. Sure on good days I'm making 4 birdies and keeping my bogeys at 3 or 4 with the rest pars. Or 15 pars, a couple bogeys and a birdie. But ON AVERAGE my stats are what my stats are. That is the key to the stats for match play....based not on a single round but many. And over time the lower player has the slight advantage.

It might not seem fair to be "penalized" for playing well, but just because you are the low guy does not mean you should automatically win.

Again if caps are correct the low guy has the advantage. The numbers are the numbers and they support that.

[hbear]

An example of a recent tournament round (sped up greens, thicker rough, tougher pins, etc) I made 4 birdies, 13 pars and took a 9 on a par 4. Shot a 4 over 75. Given my course rating is 73.7, I played below my index with ESC and would've been a handful for the greater majority of players that round of it were match play.

That is NOT my typical round based on averages.

[cb24]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1438832657' post='12087402']
[quote name='cb24' timestamp='1438828137' post='12087014']
So lets just do the math. A 12 that has 3 doubles and a triple every round also gets 1 birdie a round. That means on 8 holes he is shooting above par and 10 holes shooting par or better. How does that even out properly if he is getting strokes on 12 holes? Please help me understand because that scenario is not properly accounted for in match play versus stroke play. That is just reality.

I agree that I need to play to my potential better but doesn't it seem like its unfairly hurting me also that my handicap is a lot lower from the few good rounds? People talk about the handicap system like its so perfect, in the real world it's anything but that. But hey this is the Internet not the real world [/quote]

I never said the handicap system is perfect....just that literally data on over 100k of recorded rounds (which include examples of players like you mention, vanity cappers as well) show that over time (e.g. Not just one round) the lower capper has the advantage. The KEY is over multiple data points/rounds. In one round anything can happen.

I agree on your proposed math, you better play well that day. However it is no different than the scratch player that theoretically makes 3 doubles and 6 birdies. Guess what? Over the course of multiple rounds that guy doesn't average 6 birdies a round. Nor do I suspect your 12 makes a birdie, a wack of pars NO bogeys and everything else is doubles and triples every round.

I'm a true 0.0 index right now and I only average 1.6 birdies a round, just under than 11pars, just under than 5 bogey, and the rest others. Sure on good days I'm making 4 birdies and keeping my bogeys at 3 or 4 with the rest pars. Or 15 pars, a couple bogeys and a birdie. But ON AVERAGE my stats are what my stats are. That is the key to the stats for match play....based not on a single round but many. And over time the lower player has the slight advantage.

It might not seem fair to be "penalized" for playing well, but just because you are the low guy does not mean you should automatically win.

Again if caps are correct the low guy has the advantage. The numbers are the numbers and they support that.
[/quote]

One thing that I ithink has a bigger impact and works for or against players is the tees they play. I have decent length and this works out to me shooting similar scores regardless of the tees I play from because I end up laying up on certain holes instead of going as aggressive when I play the forward tees just based on positioning. Since that is the case, my handicap would be higher if I played the forward tees, kind of a weird thing about my game. Might just be the set up of my home course as well. But I do think back tees will deflate handicaps a little more than normal.

I am like you and don't get usually more than 2 or 3 birdies a round but get a lot of pars and not more than 4-5 bogeys a round. If I get hot I shoot a few under par, even at a course with like a 74-75 rating. This makes my handicap pretty volatile.

I really was not trying to be fascetious but honestly wanted to understand how it can be fair. I think against most players it will be more evenly matched like everyone is saying. I think I may be playing against one of the outliers, lol