Oceans Eleven Confessions to break a man's heart....

[DeNinny]

^ Piggy you may need to physically anchor that base to the floor. Rocks may not be enough weight depending on how hard you have to bend. Nice work!

[Pigems]

^ Piggy you may need to physically anchor that base to the floor. Rocks may not be enough weight depending on how hard you have to bend. Nice work!

 

Yeah, I just tried it with an old wedge. Loft isn't bad with this set up but Lie is tricky, the rig is a little more flexible then I'd like. Version 2.0 will have longer braces, a wider footprint and a 6x6 post instead of the 4x4. This will work for now though, after a few more modifications :)

[DeNinny]

^ Piggy you may need to physically anchor that base to the floor. Rocks may not be enough weight depending on how hard you have to bend. Nice work!

 

Yeah, I just tried it with an old wedge. Loft isn't bad with this set up but Lie is tricky, the rig is a little more flexible then I'd like. Version 2.0 will have longer braces, a wider footprint and a 6x6 post instead of the 4x4. This will work for now though, after a few more modifications :)

 

LOL, I looked at that and instantly was concerned that too much force would cause the base to slip. Safety issue!

 

Also wood will bend before metal does ('cause of the difference in the Young's, bulk, and shear moduli)!

 

And yeah lie adjustments will always need more force than loft because of how the head attaches to the hosel.

[billh17]

I consider single digit bounce low and medium in the 10-12 range.

 

Edit: What manufacturers define it as may be different and I doubt there is a standard from one to another.

 

thanks De.....

[Conrad1953]

I consider single digit bounce low and medium in the 10-12 range.

 

Edit: What manufacturers define it as may be different and I doubt there is a standard from one to another.

 

I agree and so Bill's 6 degrees on all is wedges is low. Sole width plays a

role too. Ping, for example, went away from bounce #s for a bit and just

had thin, medium and wide sole wedge options.

 

In Bill's case he has grooved his wedge play around what he has and

probably shouldn't change anything since it works well for him. What

many do anyway is open the face on their wedges at set up to expose

the bounce and raise up the leading edge. Of course this also increases

the loft and is a great way to go when you need to hit a short flopper.

 

For players that are skilled enough to use low bounce wedges out of

the sand, then they take the same wedge and open it up off grass lies

and negate the need to carry a higher lofted wedge, like a 60 and just

play with a 56 and have room at the top of their bag for another club.

 

I know we all tinker with our wedge set ups looking for that right mix

that works best for us. For me, I like having a 58-60 in there for full

shots under 100 yards that I'm going for ball first contact.

 

When I'm playing a lot I can move the ball around in my stance and hit

different shots with a 60 and have fun with it. It's a fun wedge to carry

but can be a dangerous one if you don't practice enough with it. I know

some guys that won't carry one cause they've stuck it in the ground or

hit skulls with it and want nothing to do with one, lol.

[DeNinny]

Conrad it does not take a skilled player to hit a low bounce wedge out of the sand. It makes sand shots easier for ALL players with the exception of players that are a HEAD CASE about low bounce. What it does is allow the player to hit out of the sand WITHOUT opening the face. The low bounce is so easy to cut through the sand there is no need to have to open up the face to reduce the higher drag created by the bounce. I would rather hit my low bounce 60 out of a bunker with a square face than my medium bounce 53/54 with an open face. It's an easier shot.

[billh17]

I consider single digit bounce low and medium in the 10-12 range.

 

Edit: What manufacturers define it as may be different and I doubt there is a standard from one to another.

 

I agree and so Bill's 6 degrees on all is wedges is low. Sole width plays a

role too. Ping, for example, went away from bounce #s for a bit and just

had thin, medium and wide sole wedge options.

 

In Bill's case he has grooved his wedge play around what he has and

probably shouldn't change anything since it works well for him. What

many do anyway is open the face on their wedges at set up to expose

the bounce and raise up the leading edge. Of course this also increases

the loft and is a great way to go when you need to hit a short flopper.

 

For players that are skilled enough to use low bounce wedges out of

the sand, then they take the same wedge and open it up off grass lies

and negate the need to carry a higher lofted wedge, like a 60 and just

play with a 56 and have room at the top of their bag for another club.

 

I know we all tinker with our wedge set ups looking for that right mix

that works best for us. For me, I like having a 58-60 in there for full

shots under 100 yards that I'm going for ball first contact.

 

When I'm playing a lot I can move the ball around in my stance and hit

different shots with a 60 and have fun with it. It's a fun wedge to carry

but can be a dangerous one if you don't practice enough with it. I know

some guys that won't carry one cause they've stuck it in the ground or

hit skulls with it and want nothing to do with one, lol.

 

About four years ago,i spent the better part of 3 months,working on my game from 150 in....paying special attention to the 65 to 115 area.

I worked very hard at it and it has turned out to be the best thing i have done for my game.The wedges were a gift,as a set,and i stayed with

them....i may or may not have built the swing around the clubs..lol all i know is that i taught myself how to hit them...i have 1/2...3/4...and full swing

with all 3... when i first made the move to get better in this area,i approached an instructor...and the 1st lesson,he wanted me to change my grip..'

hit a lower traj....and wanted to change the grips on the clubs......I never went back for lesson #2...lol

[DeNinny]

billh17, don't ever let anyone tell you, from a physics perspective, that higher bounce is better. AT BEST it will be equivalent, but never better.

[Michael C.]

It all depends on the sand and length of shot FOR ME! ;)

 

if the sand is hard or is only loose on top, I'll use a more square face. If it's fluffy...like you step into the bunker and sink into it a couple of inches then, I'll open it the face to expose more bounce and flange. Do you know why? Because I'm a genius with the short game. :taunt:

[Qqq123xx]

I use dynamite, quarter stick, to get out of bunkers. Fried egg or plugged a bit more.

[Pigems]

Wow do forged irons and wedges ever bend some easily. I checked and re set TP's forged Callaway wedges and it was waaaaay easier the the old Cast Titleist wedge I tried first.

[DeNinny]

It all depends on the sand and length of shot FOR ME! ;)

 

if the sand is hard or is only loose on top, I'll use a more square face. If it's fluffy...like you step into the bunker and sink into it a couple of inches then, I'll open it the face to expose more bounce and flange. Do you know why? Because I'm a genius with the short game. :taunt:

 

The other reason could be that you are drunk on high bounce marketing kool-aid. You reason you open the face is so that the bounce gives you LESS drag and resistance through the sand.

 

BTW my point is that when you open a stronger lofted 54-56 face, you are effectively creating a 60 loft. And you have REDUCED the drag force from the bounce. With a low bounce 60, the loft is already 60 when square and the drag from bounce is already low. There's no need to open the face because of this. So you get a more consistent result by reducing the variability of opening the face. It is harder to set a specific open face angle consistently than just setting the face square.

 

What you described is using the same club but lie conditions were different. What I'm describing is the same lie condition but using different clubs to achieve the same loft.

 

BTW feel free to ignore this if it doesn't help you. I'm doing it for those that want to understand the true physics of what is really going on.

[Michael C.]

It all depends on the sand and length of shot FOR ME! ;)

 

if the sand is hard or is only loose on top, I'll use a more square face. If it's fluffy...like you step into the bunker and sink into it a couple of inches then, I'll open it the face to expose more bounce and flange. Do you know why? Because I'm a genius with the short game. :taunt:

 

The other reason could be that you are drunk on high bounce marketing kool-aid. You reason you open the face is so that the bounce gives you LESS drag and resistance through the sand.

 

BTW my point is that when you open a stronger lofted 54-56 face, you are effectively creating a 60 loft. And you have REDUCED the drag force from the bounce. With a low bounce 60, the loft is already 60 when square and the drag from bounce is already low. There's no need to open the face because of this. So you get a more consistent result by reducing the variability of opening the face. It is harder to set a specific open face angle consistently than just setting the face square.

 

What you described is using the same club but lie conditions were different. What I'm describing is the same lie condition but using different clubs to achieve the same loft.

 

BTW feel free to ignore this if it doesn't help you. I'm doing it for those that want to understand the true physics of what is really going on.

 

YES! I open the face to give me less drag. YES! Because the leading edge is up and bounce is allowing the club to skid and not dig. Wider sole = Better skid + less dig.

 

Exactly!!

 

Now, we're getting somewhere.

[DeNinny]

The other 100% theoretically correct reason that opening the face is not as ideal is because the bounce in the heel to toe direction will create a lower resistance "channel" and the clubhead will tend to travel in this direction which is NOT the same direction as the path. When the face is square, the resistance by the bounce is even because that "channel" is square to the path.

[Michael C.]

The other 100% theoretically correct reason that opening the face is not as ideal is because the bounce in the heel to toe direction will create a lower resistance "channel" and the clubhead will tend to travel in this direction which is NOT the same direction as the path. When the face is square, the resistance by the bounce is even because that "channel" is square to the path.

 

EXACTLY! And this why you open the stance in direct relation to the face. The ball will, even in the sand, take off in the direction of the face with cut spin.

[DeNinny]

It all depends on the sand and length of shot FOR ME! ;)

 

if the sand is hard or is only loose on top, I'll use a more square face. If it's fluffy...like you step into the bunker and sink into it a couple of inches then, I'll open it the face to expose more bounce and flange. Do you know why? Because I'm a genius with the short game. :taunt:

 

The other reason could be that you are drunk on high bounce marketing kool-aid. You reason you open the face is so that the bounce gives you LESS drag and resistance through the sand.

 

BTW my point is that when you open a stronger lofted 54-56 face, you are effectively creating a 60 loft. And you have REDUCED the drag force from the bounce. With a low bounce 60, the loft is already 60 when square and the drag from bounce is already low. There's no need to open the face because of this. So you get a more consistent result by reducing the variability of opening the face. It is harder to set a specific open face angle consistently than just setting the face square.

 

What you described is using the same club but lie conditions were different. What I'm describing is the same lie condition but using different clubs to achieve the same loft.

 

BTW feel free to ignore this if it doesn't help you. I'm doing it for those that want to understand the true physics of what is really going on.

 

YES! I open the face to give me less drag. YES! Because the leading edge is up and bounce is allowing the club to skid and not dig. Wider sole = Better skid + less dig.

 

Exactly!!

 

Now, we're getting somewhere.

 

You may want to reread it more clearly because what I stated has nothing to do with your faux logic that doesn't match the physics of what is actually happening. Less digging was never mentioned in my points. And I never differentiated between high and low bounce (to your point about why YOU open the face for some shots).

 

Opening the face simply reduces drag compared to keeping it square. Now, if you open a lower bounce wedge the same amount as a higher bounce wedge, the LOWER bounce wedge has the less drag because it ALWAYS does when ALL ELSE IS EQUAL.

 

You dig the same with both clubs. You operate on a FALSE ASSUMPTION that there is a different amount of "dig". The higher bounce club, ALL THINGS EQUAL, ALWAYS digs SLOWER.

 

Seriously, please read my points carefully. You may understand them better. And you may get somewhere.

[Michael C.]

Lower bounce has less drag. Drag is the resistance of force applied. Higher bounce has more drag. More resistance. Opening the face INCREASES drag by exposing more flange.

 

If the force of the club is into the turf, higher bounce has more drag and more resistance to the ground/sand or whatever substrate the club is trying to force it's way into. More drag = less dig. Drag is the resistance.

 

A leading edge that is round will not cut into the turf as a sharper leading edge. Would you rather cut a steak with a sharp knife or a butter knife? A sharp knife because a butter knife has more resistance. More drag.

 

This was Sarazens idea with the sand wedge. A plane lifts because of drag...resistance to the air below. Higher bounce and wider sole has more drag and less dig to the turf below. The wider the sole and bounce high enough to still get the leading edge well below the equator of the ball is insurance. If you hit the ground a little behind the ball, the more drag/resistance you have to the turf the better chance you have of hitting it clean and not fat. Especially on a short game wedge shot.

[DeNinny]

Lower bounce has less drag. Drag is the resistance of force applied. Higher bounce has more drag. More resistance. Opening the face INCREASES drag by exposing more flange.

 

If the force of the club is into the turf, higher bounce has more drag and more resistance to the ground/sand or whatever substrate the club is trying to force it's way into. More drag = less dig. Drag is the resistance.

 

A leading edge that is round will not cut into the turf as a sharper leading edge. Would you rather cut a steak with a sharp knife or a butter knife? A sharp knife because a butter knife has more resistance. More drag.

 

This was Sarazens idea with the sand wedge. A plane lifts because of drag...resistance to the air below. Higher bounce and wider sole has more drag and less dig to the turf below. The wider the sole and bounce high enough to still get the leading edge well below the equator of the ball is insurance. If you hit the ground a little behind the ball, the more drag/resistance you have to the turf the better chance you have of hitting it clean and not fat. Especially on a short game wedge shot.

 

See ALL my other posts if you ever want to get anywhere.

 

Opening the face REDUCES the drag. This is unequivocally true and 100% supported by the physics.

 

Everything else you stated is just rehash and repeat. My other posts already refute everything you just stated. No use going in a circle anymore.

 

Also I HIGHLY advise reading "Physics for Scientists and Engineers" by Douglas C. Giancoli (or an equivalent physics book) before you try to make any more "theoretical" conclusions about the physics. I promise you it will change your perspective of the physics of bounce AND the notion that the clubhead, the shaft, the hands and arms of the golfer will ALL reroute, in the middle of the shot mind you, all because of a MINISCULE amount of bounce differences and because of SOFT sand.

[Chief Illiniwek]

You guys are gonna make Deninny's head explode.

 

Missed league last night cuz I was sick. Who gets sick in May?

[DeNinny]

You guys are gonna make Deninny's head explode.

 

Missed league last night cuz I was sick. Who gets sick in May?

 

LOL it's not even close to exploding. This is basic fluid mechanics and conservation of energy and momentum to me. And I'm not the one misinterpreting the arguments. (And I'm just trying to help!)

 

Ugh I hate getting sick when the weather is nice. Get well soon, Chief.

[Michael C.]

You guys are gonna make Deninny's head explode.

 

Missed league last night cuz I was sick. Who gets sick in May?

 

Lmao! We're like brothers in here. Some people would get mad but we're all good. Besides, I'm not incorrectly applying the laws of physics. I'm just trying to help. :cheesy: :taunt:

 

Have you seen the drawing?? ;)

 

Sorry to hear your sick, Chief. I wondered if you played with impending storms coming through last night.

[DeNinny]

 

... Besides, I'm not incorrectly applying the laws of physics. I'm just trying to help. :cheesy: :taunt:

 

...

 

Actually you are. Stating that opening the face increases drag is a clear example. Another example is thinking the clubhead reroutes.

 

Until you read that book, you will continue to misunderstand.

[Conrad1953]

You guys are gonna make Deninny's head explode.

 

Missed league last night cuz I was sick. Who gets sick in May?

 

We could start our own golf league and call it the "Exploding Heads"

golf league. And with all the musicians in here we can compliment

with the the "Exploding Heads" band.

 

In fact, it's time to start "Confesssions 12 - Exploding Heads want to know." :cheesy:

[Michael C.]

 

... Besides, I'm not incorrectly applying the laws of physics. I'm just trying to help. :cheesy: :taunt:

 

...

 

Actually you are. Stating that opening the face increases drag is a clear example. Another example is thinking the clubhead reroutes.

 

Until you read that book, you will continue to misunderstand.

 

I did make one mistake in an earlier post. I said I open the face to reduce drag. That's not why I do it. And I don't remember stating anything about the club rerouting.

[BIG STU]

Conrad it does not take a skilled player to hit a low bounce wedge out of the sand. It makes sand shots easier for ALL players with the exception of players that are a HEAD CASE about low bounce. What it does is allow the player to hit out of the sand WITHOUT opening the face. The low bounce is so easy to cut through the sand there is no need to have to open up the face to reduce the higher drag created by the bounce. I would rather hit my low bounce 60 out of a bunker with a square face than my medium bounce 53/54 with an open face. It's an easier shot.

Ninja you are giving away all of my secrets!!!

[DeNinny]

 

... Besides, I'm not incorrectly applying the laws of physics. I'm just trying to help. :cheesy: :taunt:

 

...

 

Actually you are. Stating that opening the face increases drag is a clear example. Another example is thinking the clubhead reroutes.

 

Until you read that book, you will continue to misunderstand.

 

I did make one mistake in an earlier post. I said I open the face to reduce drag. That's not why I do it. And I don't remember stating anything about the club rerouting.

 

If you assume the two clubs have different travel paths, most definitely they are rerouting. Whether you say one club digs or the other doesn't as much, you for sure are assuming there is rerouting going on.

 

Again, just a few examples of your continued misunderstanding of the complete physics.

[DeNinny]

Conrad it does not take a skilled player to hit a low bounce wedge out of the sand. It makes sand shots easier for ALL players with the exception of players that are a HEAD CASE about low bounce. What it does is allow the player to hit out of the sand WITHOUT opening the face. The low bounce is so easy to cut through the sand there is no need to have to open up the face to reduce the higher drag created by the bounce. I would rather hit my low bounce 60 out of a bunker with a square face than my medium bounce 53/54 with an open face. It's an easier shot.

Ninja you are giving away all of my secrets!!!

 

LOL my bad, Grand STU-brah. But it isn't much of a secret when you understand the complete physics and want to use that knowledge to your advantage. Still friends?

[Michael C.]

 

... Besides, I'm not incorrectly applying the laws of physics. I'm just trying to help. :cheesy: :taunt:

 

...

 

Actually you are. Stating that opening the face increases drag is a clear example. Another example is thinking the clubhead reroutes.

 

Until you read that book, you will continue to misunderstand.

 

I did make one mistake in an earlier post. I said I open the face to reduce drag. That's not why I do it. And I don't remember stating anything about the club rerouting.

 

If you assume the two clubs have different travel paths, most definitely they are rerouting. Whether you say one club digs or the other doesn't as much, you for sure are assuming there is rerouting going on.

 

Again, just a few examples of your continued misunderstanding of the complete physics.

 

Swinging the same club two different ways is not rerouting. One swing has one path the other swing has different path. I don't have one swing for a club, especially, my 58* wedge. I swing differently depending on the shot I want to hit.

 

Now hitting the ground CAN reroute a club from its intended path through deflection.

[Conrad1953]

LOL, I think we need an OGA subdivision........drum roll...........DOGS or

Detrimental Of Golf Subdivision of the OGA.

 

When Ninjaw's head explodes on any of us he can banish us into the DOGS

as punishment.

 

Once a year there will be a tournament between the DOGS and the NAGS,

aka Ninja Approved Golf Subdivision, to determine which group will represent

the OGA at the annual WRX charity to raise funds for the pursuit of a goal to

raise money to find a cure for those things deemed curable by the NAGS,

namely DOG Disorder notwithstanding, for which there is no cure but the

goal is a noble one even so and to pursue it is good for charity and raising

money is fun especially if it is OPM

[Conrad1953]

Conrad it does not take a skilled player to hit a low bounce wedge out of the sand. It makes sand shots easier for ALL players with the exception of players that are a HEAD CASE about low bounce. What it does is allow the player to hit out of the sand WITHOUT opening the face. The low bounce is so easy to cut through the sand there is no need to have to open up the face to reduce the higher drag created by the bounce. I would rather hit my low bounce 60 out of a bunker with a square face than my medium bounce 53/54 with an open face. It's an easier shot.

Ninja you are giving away all of my secrets!!!

 

LOL, I'm glad that made sense to you STU, especially opening the face to reduce drag

created by the bounce caused by opening the face. Ninja is a sneaky master troller.