Oceans Eleven Confessions to break a man's heart....

[mdgboxx]

Pige - I'd seriously consider donating a man-grape to own that club-repair rig. Well done!. You're now in total control of your own destiny from the swing to the equipment. Dialed-in on all fronts at all times. OUTSTANDING!

 

As to the post-impact question. You guys are all pretty "fart smellers" so I doubt my two cents are going to change anyone's religion.

 

All I have to share is that in my own book - it matters. It doesn't have to matter to the extent a golfer makes some sort of "perfect" movements after impact/ So long as he is consistent with whatever the heck he does and can play it - then its all good as far as that goes.

 

But here are some of the things I personally believe the post impact motion signals.

 

IF - the timing of the start of takeaway to the top.... comes very close to the timing of the start of downswing to the dead-stop finish... then that golfer has BEAUTIFUL tempo.

 

IF - the arms, hands, shaft, and upper body all STOP together at the finish pose - then that golfer is NOT stalling along the way with ANY body parts - he is NOT hitting "at" the ball - but instead is accelerating smoothly all the way to the finish. He is getting his trail side (shoulder, hip, the whole smash) all the way over to his lead side.

 

IF - from down-the-line the club and arms disappear (hidden by his body blocking the camera view) then his trail side forearm is MOVING well and his hands are flipping less.

 

IF - from face one both arms extend fully for the first time AFTER impact - AND his hands travel up the follow-through plane right in front of his sternum... then he is TURNING THE MASS more so than flipping the hands.

 

IF - from down-the-line the head remains leaned more toward the ball wile the lead hip remains behind the lead heel for a long time after impact - that golfer is avoiding EE and typically has very good knee and hip turn action going on.

 

IF - from down-the-line the shaft re-appears from being momentarily blocked from view by the body... AND... its traveling on the same plane it was on in the downswing... And especially if the trail side wrist is flattened out and the lead wrist is bent backward (cupped) at that point... THAT guy has a 99% chance of delivering solid, whacks that fly straight - with all clubs but especially driver!

 

These are all examples of things that signal (to me at least) GOOD things are happening and they are revealed as much or more AFTER impact as anything going on before it.

 

Now do ALL of these little marks have to be hit perfectly? Do we absolutely HAVE to or are we doomed to terrible golf? - Are there a great many golfers who could probably care less about all this "analysis" voodoo and would just assume go play a fun round of golf regardless of this crap?

 

We all know the answers to those questions. We're pretty fart smellers at the end of the day. Just chiming in on the question "Does what happens after the strike really matter"? Well the freak'n ball is gone - so NO it doesn't. All I'm trotting out is that it sure as heck reveals a LOT about plane, tempo, timing, etc. Swing your swing - do your thing - and have fun in my book. No one has a "perfect" swing and most all of us owns way more "good" things than (IMO) we realize ourselves. Otherwise we would long ago have taken up needle point over golf.

 

Turning the mass and needle point all in the same post. Bravo Reason! :)

 

Put that one in there just to see if you'd catch it! LMAO.

 

Does moving suck a little less these days? New "digs" working out well? Any chance of a confessions party in your new back yard allowing the place to get trashed .... I mean inaugurated?

 

Thanks for asking. We are in week four of commuting from the newer place. Old farm house is being listed tomorrow. We have done a ton of work to get it ready. Fingers crossed that someone loves it as much as we have.

 

I am 5 min. from four courses. Not world class but would make for a pretty good golf party.

 

My golf game is in decline and in need of more reps.

 

Or maybe I just need to play my old, more forgiving Ping Eye II's. I was a six back when I gamed those. I will PM DeNinga and see if he thinks there is a correlation :)

 

PING. Play your Best!!

 

If I ever make it back up there we can have the battle of the "has been"

vs the "never was".

 

Smart money will be on the has been since he has been and the never

was never was

 

Say what? :cheesy:

 

TOOL,

Half a dozen came back, there gone again. :angry22:

[mdgboxx]

...

Ninja, you know I'm on board. The only thing I've ever 100% disagreed with you about is bounce. I was actually just looking at the difference between high and low bounce and trying to figure out a way to represent it as a percentage of total mass of the club head. I think that's the rub. Lower center of gravity. Blunt leading edge and lower center of gravity I should say.

 

Most of my relative experience with equipment design comes from whitewater kayaks. I think I've mentioned it before, but everyone always wants a more "user-friendly" design just like golf clubs. Not going to happen. You can only take material away or add it. The materials themselves are practically identical. There have certainly been a couple of very innovative design changes, true game changers, during my tenure paddling, but they are few and far between. Everything you change does in fact change performance, but none of it makes anything "easier." The exact same debate happens constantly as with golf clubs. Is it better to master a more "difficult to hit" design or just accept the "benefits" of a different design.

 

So Matt J, I'm glad you are mostly on board, and I never want to become a 'just trust me' person. It is far better and satisfying for me to finally convince a doubter that what I'm saying is 100% correct. And through being challenged and openly and respectfully discussing it is the way I like to get there. And (LOL) please 'trust me' in that I'm 100% open to being wrong. I just don't ever accept it without some counter proof or basis. This is how technical arguments in my profession are resolved.

 

And also thank you for sharing your thought process on the issue of bounce. That helps me a lot.

 

So in regards to your thought about a lower CG and more mass to create the higher sole curvature, and there is a more blunt leading edge, I see where you are coming from. But again those same points still support what I'm saying about the increased drag and energy required to move through ANY substrate. Let's cover them one at a time.

 

Lower CG. This one is easy. A lower CG puts the weight of the clubhead FARTHER away from the golfer. The total swing MOI is higher, by definition. And since the golfer has a fixed energy (again setting all other things equal) to swing, the higher MOI clubhead is theoretically SLOWER. And if you argue that the more mass helps to push dirt out of the way due to simple momentum, I can't disagree but as much as the lower mass helped in this regard, the issue of a slower velocity negates the benefit. And besides, just physically compare a low and high bounce club. That little extra mass is VERY minimal considering how much volume above the bounce comprises the rest of the clubhead. So I'm sorry, the lower CG does not play into the benefit of high bounce.

 

More rounded sole and blunt leading edge. This has already been explained before. To repeat: they will INCREASE the drag though ANY media and they will move turf out of the way, slowing down more than the lower bounce club in the process, BEFORE any rerouting of the clubhead path happens. Also remember that rerouting the clubhead REQUIRES that the shaft either bend and/or the swing fulcrum (which means hands, arms, and entire club) changes position in milliseconds of time. All caused by soft dirt! Sorry, ain't happening over the distance we are talking about. Plus again, literally look at the physical differences on the two clubs closely. It really isn't that much difference. And lastly per my 100% accurate CONCEPTUAL drawing, these features make it HARDER to make clean ball contact FIRST. And again this is regardless of the substrate that the ball sits on.

 

So I'm sorry but again there is nothing in the points you made that support that a high bounce club will dig less over the distance and time of concern. Your argument is saying that a higher drag and more imprecise design feature is helpful. The laws of physics don't support this.

 

As to your last paragraph, I agree that it is very rare for any club innovation to change the game. To me, when it happens, the game changes for EVERYBODY because it is a true breakthrough. Steel shafts, metal woods, polybutadiene ball. These were breakthrough innovations that EVERYBODY adopted because they truly changed the game. All the other "stuff" is just 'faux' innovation or very limited in practical application.

 

And as to your last point, you are getting into psychology and the psyche of the individual golfer. That's not my area and no longer science. All I can do is assess the complete science behind a 'feature' and then I just let the science define whether or not the feature helps or hurts based on that alone.

 

So in the case of high bounce, the science answer is that it HURTS. There is nothing in the science for sure that supports it being truly beneficial...but the manufacturers found a way to market it as such due to a VERY LIMITED presentation of the "science". Again only possible with the ignorant golfer.

 

An error occurred

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

 

Isn't it always when you most need them Likes?

[Conrad1953]

Yes Happy 60th Nogin Wacker and welcome to the club! Speaking of Sixty. Where is our friend?

 

He unregistered himself it seems and departed WRX and we are left

with a mystery.

[thug the bunny]

wha? Sixty has left?

[bscinstnct]

Ahh, Springtime had officially arrived.

 

How do we know this?

 

In NYC, you can tell because you are at the same Starbucks you went to all winter, but suddenly find yourself surrounded by absurdly hot babes who seemingly came out of nowhere. They just appear as if from some sort of winter hibernation

 

; )

[Conrad1953]

wha? Sixty has left?

 

It appears so Thug. Poof, gone.

[thug the bunny]

wha? Sixty has left?

 

It appears so Thug. Poof, gone.

 

And, as are the sands through an hour glass, so, are the days of our lives...

 

Wonder what happened..

[Matt J]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

[Michael C.]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

Bill is rehabbing his shoulder. He's still here. Sixty had a bout with a bacterial pneumonia or bronchitis. Both from Ohio. IIRC. Hope everything is okay with Sixty.

[DeNinny]

Ahh, Springtime had officially arrived.

 

How do we know this?

 

In NYC, you can tell because you are at the same Starbucks you went to all winter, but suddenly find yourself surrounded by absurdly hot babes who seemingly came out of nowhere. They just appear as if from some sort of winter hibernation

 

; )

 

It's all good until you see their winter bush.

[scotee]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

I have to agree with MJ. Sorry Ninge but I don’t quite get the bounce argument yet either. When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf. On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all. I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don’t have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works.

[DeNinny]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

...

 

Matt J, I find it funny that your argument to use a less precise instrument for those conditions is completely the opposite of beneficial according to the physics that I explained numerous times now. To quote...

 

..."It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit."...

 

I just explained that it is always a detriment under all those conditions. Also you provided ZERO science to support the last statement. Where is the benefit of "lack of precision" other than you stating it as such? This is what I meant about not providing anything to refute my claims. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but there is zero explanation in that. So let me indulge your point and argue it for you...

 

Let's start with this 100% CONCEPTUALLY accurate drawing again:

 

 

 

Ok, so again we have low bounce club A and high bounce club B with the assumption of ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL. Velocity, path, AoA, etc are all equal coming into contact with the ball.

 

Let's assume this is a tight lie, the more ideal case, to start. Also let's assume both are coming into impact cleanly and ball contact is good. It happens just before ground contact. The classic little ball hit before the big ball. In this regard, both clubs are equal. BUT...it required a perfect strike for the result to be equal.

 

Now envision both clubs being just a hair lower. This is starting to introduce golfer error into the equation. Again, the same error. Now look closely at the bottom of both clubs. If you lower both of them the same exact amount, which one hits the ground with more surface area? Obviously B does. This is the DETRIMENT of the lack of precision. It has a similar issue if you raise the club a little instead of lowering. Club B will hit the ball with the rounded part of the tip but club A still has a little bit of flat surface area for clean contact before its rounded tip hits the ball instead. Clearly club A allows for MORE margin of error by the golfer. You can raise and lower club A MORE than club B and still have an acceptable shot. I don't think we've ever disagreed on this scenario, but this sets up the rest of my points.

 

Ok so now let's replace the ground in the drawing with soft mud. The ball may sink in this mud a little, so you can envision it a little lower and instead of the straight line at the very bottom of the ball, now the ball creates a curved line. But note that still there is a "corner" for which to fit the leading edge of the club. And still it is easier to fit club A into that corner, even with mud as the substrate. Again, repeat the raising and lowering exercise and the club A still has cleaner ball contact. Lower both clubs the same amount and still club B hits the wet mud with more surface area. Raise both clubs the same amount and still club B hits the ball with the rounded tip first. So again, this is proof that the more imprecise club is still WORSE.

 

Ok so now let's put the ball on sand. Same issue. The more imprecise club B will still be harder to fit into the corner between the sand and the ball. Now let's assume that you want to hit the sand first and lower both clubs the same amount and such that their tip is already touching the sand in the picture. Now the issue isn't about ball contact first, instead it is simply that the clubhead SLOWS down more with club B. The sand is no different than air or any other media. The more rounded shape of club B has to displace MORE sand and thus has more drag force on the clubhead.

 

Now I know already that you *may* argue this and state that the bounce helps the clubhead from digging, but I disagree because again it will simply help to slow down the clubhead. Also I know "conventional wisdom" says that you open the clubhead to "activate the bounce" (<-LOL FALSE), but instead of conventional wisdom, here is why you open the clubface in the sand: By itself, opening the clubface for a sand shot makes the entire clubhead have LESS drag force so that you can more easily move the clubhead through the sand. This has NOTHING to do with the bounce. Simply put, opening the clubface in the sand is just like having less bounce. The open face does not displace as much sand and requires LESS force to push the clubhead through it. This is really why you open the clubface in the sand. Again, nothing to do with bounce. In the sand, you simply want the clubhead to move through it efficiently. Opening the face achieves this. So again, even when the media is sand, club A is better and club B is worse because it SLOWS the clubhead down.

 

Ok so now let's look at fluffy grass. Now imagine the ball is sitting on top of fluffy grass. Once again, applying the same thought experiment of raising and lowering both clubheads the same amount, club A results in cleaner ball contact. And again, if you lower both clubs enough so that the grass is contacted first, club A will cut through that grass with LESS resistance and drag than club B. And no, the fluffy grass is not rerouting the club B path any differently than club A. All club B does is require that MORE fluffy grass get moved out of the way.

 

Ok so now let's look at an unpredictable lie. I have no idea what you mean by this but again it doesn't matter. Club A will still allow for more error in raising and lowering the clubhead and still make cleaner ball contact compared to club B.

 

So sorry Matt J, your argument for a less precise clubhead being better in a tight lie, muddy lie, sand lie, fluffy grass lie, and unpredictable lie still does NOT hold water. In all of the cases, the more precise club, club A, allows for either more margin of error by the golfer himself, or it results in LESS loss of clubhead velocity. Both of these things are beneficial across all substrates.

 

And the only reason others have no issues with using a higher bounce club in these scenarios is that the detriment is simply LESS than the tight lie scenario. You keep claiming that others have such a good experience with high bounce clubs in fluffy lies and such, but I say it is just because the issue is LESSENED. You have to ask yourself, have you really and truly tested both types of clubs in a side by side test? Same loft but extremely different bounce and leading edge. I can tell you that I have done this with a 5* bounce MP-R 60 and a 12* bounce CG10 (or 11) 60. And by far the MP-R is better in ALL cases and different shots. I'm not saying you haven't tried this but I'm asking you to be honest with yourself (and no you cannot use other people to justify this...you just need to speak for yourself) and asses whether or not you really proved that high bounce was "best" for certain lies. Maybe it finally was "less bad" in those lies. I can tell you that there is ZERO science that will justify why your high bounce wedges were truly "better". But also I know that the margin of differences between a high and low bounce club are pretty minor so really the detriments that I state may not be that bad. But they are there and the physics supports that they are theoretically detrimental.

 

I have no issue with your last statement. Psychology plays the greater role anyway. I'm just saying that you are kidding yourself if you think there is any science that supports using a high bounce club in 99% of the lies you will face. And I am being generous by giving that 1%.

 

So if you want to continue with this discussion, all I ask is that you provide some basis for your point. I'm sorry, but this statement, to quote, has ZERO science to support it:

 

"Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience."

 

This is simply your personal opinion and belief. And I have no issue with it unless you want to claim there is some science behind it. And also note that I know a lot of people, in this thread as a matter of fact, that don't have the same experience as you just stated.

[Michael C.]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

 

[DeNinny]

Ninja, it's funny hearing you explain bounce. It's a soft medium, sand, fluffy grass, wet turf, an unpredictable lie. Exactly when the "lack of precision" is a benefit. It's a club instead of a scalpel. Sometimes I need to bludgeon more than pick. I just find it hard to argue against a lot of people having the same experience. I don't think is marketing b.s. I don't think turf interaction is b.s. A high bounce wedge is like a shovel wedge. I like to have one in the bag. One scalpel and one bludgeoning axe.

 

Truly, the crux of my argument is actually just go out there and find out. Find a few inexpensive, or expensive if you can afford it, clubs and go hit them. Why do we turn to strangers on the internet to explain everything? The world used to be full of magic. Now it's full of internet experts. Including me.

 

Sixty was still rehab'ing his shoulder, right? Perhaps he got sick of logging in and reading about golf. Too bad. I thought his prognosis was good and he was going to be back swinging soon. I enjoy the posts of this whole little community, but admit I don't track each of you that closely. Has anyone tried to reach out to him like we did to Judge and Hambone when they checked out? Anyone have any contact info?

 

I have to agree with MJ. Sorry Ninge but I don’t quite get the bounce argument yet either. When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf. On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all. I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don’t have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works.

 

I'm not going to repeat everything I've already stated to Matt J. If you are going to argue with me, all I ask is that you please read everything I've stated. I mention this because. All you have done is mention a technique above and you have NOT contrasted the same technique based on applying it the same way with both a high and low bounce club. And what I'm saying is if you perform those very same techniques using a high and low bounce club, you will find ALL the same shots easier with the low bounce club. Let's just look at a few of your specific points...

 

"When pitching or chipping on a tight wet lie for example, if I expose the sharp leading edge with forward shaft lean the club head will decelerate very quickly often to a dead stop when it digs into the turf."

 

If you expose a blunted leading edge the same exact way with shaft lean as mentioned above, then you will come to the same dead stop and you may even do it sooner. Again, all my points are based on ALL things equal. This argument you used is NOT a comparison of the two different bounce clubheads given the same type of shot.

 

"On the other hand if I expose the bounce with the handle back even with the club head, I can make a rounded shallow pass and slide the club under the ball hardly bruising the turf with the club continuing to move forward with much less deceleration. "

 

Again, you can do this technique with both high and low bounce clubs and the lower bounce club is ultimately thinner and will actually glide under the ball with LESS drag force than the higher bounce one. Again, it appears to me that you applied one technique that is different than shaft lean and then you are claiming it is the bounce that helped you. Sorry, it is simply the technique. And again, assuming the SAME technique, the lower bounce club is still (theoretically and 100% backed by the science) EASIER by comparison.

 

"Think of an ice cream scoop. The sharp edge will dig into the frozen stuff. If I try to scoop ice cream with the blunt round bottom of the spoon it will slide across and not scoop at all."

 

I have refuted this many times now. Rerouting the clubhead path will require that the "ice cream" physically makes the shaft bend more and/or makes the entire body of the arms, hands, and entire club to change position mid swing AND continue with the same energy into the ball. This ain't happening when you consider that soft ice cream (<- or mud or dirt or fluffy grass) has to actually move all that weight and reposition all of it without loss of velocity. Sorry, this won't happen. Instead what happens is that the ice cream simply SLOWS DOWN the more blunted edge club.

 

With this point, you are operating on false assumption that the clubhead can reroute based on a very soft media. The very soft media is just harder for the more blunted object to pass through it. And I completely "get" why you operate under this false assumption. The high bounce club manufacturers simply claim that this is what is happening and a lot of golfers simply fall for it. I am breaking down the COMPLETE physics for you and explaining it by considering the materials properties and the reality of how the clubhead can possibly reroute. The high bounce club manufacturers certainly didn't present the physics of needing the entire club, hands and arms to reroute in order for the clubhead path to change, but this is the reality and consideration of the COMPLETE physics.

 

"I was taught this placing dimes on the green and using a wedge with some bounce. Because the sole displaces the turf downward just a little, you can slide the wedge under the dime. I have even placed two dimes inches apart and collected both in the same pass. I make no divot and hardly a mark on the green. It is for me a more forgiving technique because I don’t have to be as precise in the delivery. Same for sand play. I can nip it close to the ball or enter the sand a few inches more behind the ball and both will produce acceptable forgiving results. "

 

Again, you are talking technique here and not the relative differences that the two different bounces will make whilst using the same technique. I challenge you to really try this exercise with the SAME technique but with different bounce clubs (same loft and everything else). I will tell you right now that the lower bounce club will be EASIER to slide under those dimes than the high bounce one, again using the same technique. Remember too, a low bounce club still has a rounded bottom and it still has a rounded leading edge. It's just that both of these are LESS than the high bounce club. But that low bounce rounded bottom will still help you based on what you described. With the lower bounce club you won't need to push as much turf downward to get under the dime. But also you need to have an open mind when you try the test. If you have a bias in your mind, then that will play into your results.

 

"I am not saying you are wrong. This is just my understanding of how bounce works."

 

And I'm just trying to expand your understanding. And I really do understand your perspective. I had it too until I really evaluated the science without the marketing bias of it. Everything I stated is supported by the laws of physics. If it is not, then I am all ears where I violated a law or just missed something. But I'm willing to bet I'm 100% right and take up the discussion with any PhD physicist.

[DeNinny]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

Remember too, that at that time, the 9i and all clubs had extremely flat bottoms compared to today's clubs. I've also stated that too flat is not good because that will increase drag when the clubhead path is curved.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that MANY pros, even the ones that state that bounce is your friend, in general are using the LOWER bounce wedges. They do this because they are EASIER to use than high bounce clubs for ALL shots. It's not because the club is harder to use and so only a pro can use it. That is ludicrous. Pros want to increase all of their shot chances and this is why they choose the LOWER (<- I did not say ZERO) bounce in general.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. And everyone was happy and fine operating under this (false) premise. For 1000s of years!

[Michael C.]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

[DeNinny]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

I gave one example to Matt J many pages ago. I'll leave it to you to find. Sorry, but I can only repeat myself so many times. I've explained all the reasons high bounce is detrimental already. So now if the same points come up, I'm just going to say "see my other posts".

[Michael C.]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

I gave one example to Matt J many pages ago. I'll leave it to you to find. Sorry, but I can only repeat myself so many times. I've explained all the reasons high bounce is detrimental already. So now if the same points come up, I'm just going to say "see my other posts".

 

My bad, my friend.

 

I'm just trying to....help you, help me help you. :taunt:

[DeNinny]

Why did Sarazen invent the sand wedge? Loft? No. I just watched an interview with him. The idea came to him after riding in an airplane and watching how the flaps worked. It gave him the idea to create a flange on the bottom of the club to keep it from digging. Before that players used a niblick, basically a 9i with a sharp leading edge and little bounce. The sand traps were considered a hazard. Now, since the invention of the sand wedge, players will often bail out into a trap. Why? The invention of the sand wedge with its bounce and wide flange.

 

GC did a 4 or 5 minute segment on the wedge with comments from Sarazen. When the segment was over and they went back to the desk, David Duval (major winner and former #1 player in the world David Duval) simply stated that bounce is your friend. The introduction of bounce has made the short game much easier. It was agreed that the sand wedge with its bounce and wide sole is one THE biggest game changers in the game of golf. For the good btw. ;)

 

Sarazen had a need and invented a club to fit that need.

 

Here's my challenge for you, Sir Ninja: Find a way to use physics to prove what 80+ years of the greatest players know about why bounce and wide soles on wedges are a good thing.

 

I've already risen to the challenge. I've already stated that some roundedness on the bottom of the club is good. That is still bounce. I'm NOT contradicting anything these "great players are saying". I'm just saying LESS bounce is better. I NEVER said ZERO bounce. Absolutely you want some curvature on the bottom of the club. But you only need as much as the natural swing arc.

 

So your challenge is already met. Now why don't you just get two different wedges with all things equal except an extreme difference in bounce? Then tell me what wedge was better in all cases.

 

Also note that the greatest scientists of their time once thought the world was flat. For 1000s of years!

 

So, would you say there are lies that a higher bounce wedge gives you an advantage?

 

I gave one example to Matt J many pages ago. I'll leave it to you to find. Sorry, but I can only repeat myself so many times. I've explained all the reasons high bounce is detrimental already. So now if the same points come up, I'm just going to say "see my other posts".

 

My bad, my friend.

 

I'm just trying to....help you, help me help you. :taunt:

 

I'm good, but thanks for the offer.

[Pigems]

Got a Tee time for 9:48 this morning. The sun is out, its actually NOT windy today(under 20km lol) and its supposed to reach 15*!! Should be a great day for Golf :)

[Michael C.]

Got a Tee time for 9:48 this morning. The sun is out, its actually NOT windy today(under 20km lol) and its supposed to reach 15*!! Should be a great day for Golf :)

 

Have a good round, sir.

[Matt J]

Ninja, I'm headed out to play a quick morning round, but I think the "bounce" issue is more philosophical than science. IMO, the question becomes how much resistance one is going to get off the turf to pinch the ball. More bounce allows one to come in a little steep and trust that the club isn't going to dig straight down. I think over millions of rounds players just figured out that if the miss a little fat and steep with a low bounce wedge it is far uglier than with a high bounce wedge.

 

Absolutely not true that pros aren't carrying a high bounce 56. Here's a WITB with DJ... he actually plays more bounce in all of his wedges than I do. 9 degrees in the 47 and 52 and ten in the 60, 12 degrees in his sand wedge.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/348792/dustin-johnson-witb-2016/

 

skullshot, what's the name of your book? I'd like to read it! And happy belated birthday!

[DeNinny]

Ninja, I'm headed out to play a quick morning round, but I think the "bounce" issue is more philosophical than science. IMO, the question becomes how much resistance one is going to get off the turf to pinch the ball. More bounce allows one to come in a little steep and trust that the club isn't going to dig straight down. I think over millions of rounds players just figured out that if the miss a little fat and steep with a low bounce wedge it is far uglier than with a high bounce wedge.

 

Absolutely not true that pros aren't carrying a high bounce 56. Here's a WITB with DJ... he actually plays more bounce in all of his wedges than I do. 9 degrees in the 47 and 52 and ten in the 60, 12 degrees in his sand wedge.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/348792/dustin-johnson-witb-2016/

 

skullshot, what's the name of your book? I'd like to read it! And happy belated birthday!

 

I never said there weren't pros that use high bounce wedges. I've also said the difference was marginal anyway.

 

I'm fine with it being a philosophical argument. It's certainly not been a technical one. There's zero science to support the benefit of a high bounce club compared to a low bounce one. Period. You can take this to the bank.

 

Those millions of rounds were simply players using the clubs they had to their best ability. Play a million rounds actually comparing two wedge bounces and get back to me. Or play a million rounds with just a high bounce one and be fine with the psychology of it.

[Michael C.]

You, obviously have your stilettos dug in on this bounce thing, Bronerdian. I say stilettos because if you wearing boots with a wide sole they wouldn't dig in. :cheesy: :taunt:

[DeNinny]

You, obviously have your stilettos dug in on this bounce thing, Bronerdian. I say stilettos because if you wearing boots with a wide sole they wouldn't dig in. :cheesy: :taunt:

 

Cause I got science on my side.

 

Seems like a few of you are dug in worse but on the side of psychology.

[Michael C.]

You, obviously have your stilettos dug in on this bounce thing, Bronerdian. I say stilettos because if you wearing boots with a wide sole they wouldn't dig in. :cheesy: :taunt:

Cause I got science on my side.

 

Seems like a few of you are dug in worse but on the side of psychology.

 

Well....lmao....I admit I'm a nutjob! :crazy:

[DeNinny]

You, obviously have your stilettos dug in on this bounce thing, Bronerdian. I say stilettos because if you wearing boots with a wide sole they wouldn't dig in. :cheesy: :taunt:

Cause I got science on my side.

 

Seems like a few of you are dug in worse but on the side of psychology.

 

Well....lmao....I admit I'm a nutjob! :crazy:

 

Yes you are, Brokettle!

[Qqq123xx]

You, obviously have your stilettos dug in on this bounce thing, Bronerdian. I say stilettos because if you wearing boots with a wide sole they wouldn't dig in. :cheesy: :taunt:

 

Cause I got science on my side.

 

Seems like a few of you are dug in worse but on the side of psychology.

I always preferred Sociology.

[Pigems]

Got a Tee time for 9:48 this morning. The sun is out, its actually NOT windy today(under 20km lol) and its supposed to reach 15*!! Should be a great day for Golf :)

 

Have a good round, sir.

 

It was an Up and Down round of 41/41 lol. Did manage to birdie 9 and 18 though. Playing in the wind is so frustrating lol.

[Pigems]

This was the kind of day it was, best shot of the day right there. 13rh hole, 7 iron...then, I Lipped out the putt and missed the 3 fitter coming back lol. It was just that kinda day today.

 

Oh and these are my new buddies. We shared a nutragrain bar lol