low handicaper, I swing from the inside on way down but hit out to in.. how?

[MWL]

any thoughts?

I have just been on a launch monitor today which showed that my swing path was out to in.. this is not the first time i have seen this.. all my shots on the simulation where going left. In play my bad shot is a pull hook.. and if I try and hold the face off I end up over cutting it and loosing it right.. I also video my swing a lot and the club is actually bang on plane on the way down, and seems to be approaching on a great path, shoulders are square at impact, if anything i dont turn my shoulders hard enough through the ball.. how can the camera be telling me one thing about my swing but the launch monitor another.. I know the LM is correct because my tee marks always run in one direction across the sole on the out to in path.. I play off a 5 handicap so i'm no chopper.. I also hit the mother of all pull hooks with my PW at the moment.. I have just reviewed my video again.. when viewed from down the line , despite the club being further behind me on the way down than a lot of pros and approaching from the inside the butt of the club almost disapears from view on the thorough swing by the time the club is waist high.. where as the good players i compare it to seem to release the club more down the line with the butt of the club/hands clearly visible and slightly out from the body by waist high on follow through.. Thanks in advance for any ideas I am really confused by this one..

[JeffMann]

Useful advice is much more likely if you post your swing video.

 

Jeff.

[pbjoe]

Your hands might be casting the club on an outside to in plane. For instance, your arms and everything has an inside to outside path, but your hands cast the club on an outside to in path relative to the plane that your hands are traveling on....get it? I believe this is my problem and next time i golf i will try to fix it myself. What you could try to do is feel that on your downswing instead of pushing with your hands into the target, try pulling the butt of the club down into the ball in an inside to outside path.

[mchepp]

I have a very similar problem. I watch my swing start down and I am on plane, then when the clubhead gets down to about my knee level I seem to almost cast the club outside the line and either hit a pull or a slice if the face is open.

 

The really frustrating part is that my practice swing definitely is coming from the inside. It must hve something to do with trying to "hit" the ball instead of swinging through the ball.

 

It is interesting that our problems are so similar.

[webmstrk9]

could it be the lack of rotation? Does it feel like your hips are stuck/not rotating? Does it feel your arms are outracing your lower body through the turn?

[hoganfan924]

I have just been on a launch monitor today which showed that my swing path was out to in.. this is not the first time i have seen this.. all my shots on the simulation where going left. In play my bad shot is a pull hook.. and if I try and hold the face off I end up over cutting it and loosing it right.. I also video my swing a lot and the club is actually bang on plane on the way down, and seems to be approaching on a great path, shoulders are square at impact, if anything i dont turn my shoulders hard enough through the ball.. how can the camera be telling me one thing about my swing but the launch monitor another.. I know the LM is correct because my tee marks always run in one direction across the sole on the out to in path.. I play off a 5 handicap so i'm no chopper.. I also hit the mother of all pull hooks with my PW at the moment.. I have just reviewed my video again.. when viewed from down the line , despite the club being further behind me on the way down than a lot of pros and approaching from the inside the butt of the club almost disapears from view on the thorough swing by the time the club is waist high.. where as the good players i compare it to seem to release the club more down the line with the butt of the club/hands clearly visible and slightly out from the body by waist high on follow through.. Thanks in advance for any ideas I am really confused by this one..

 

Very possible you have some misconceptions about "ball flight laws" as most golfers do. It is very easy to hit a mother of a pull hook with a divot that goes out to the right - just have the face shut at impact. It is completely incorrect that path is the primary determinent of the initial direction of the ball flight and this has been scientifically proven (see book "Search for the perfect Swing" by Cochran & Stobbs). By memory, the face angle of the club at ball separation has about 3 times more influence on initial direction of the ball flight than the path. Every try dropping a ball onto an angled surface? Doesn't bounce straight up, does it? So if you have a good In-to-in swing path (sounds like you do from your description) you are simply just shutting the face down at impact. If you don't turn your shoulders through (sounds like you don't based on your description as the shoulders should appear slightly open at impact), this can cause the arms to run off and the forearms to roll over and shut the face down, or you could just have too strong of a grip. If this is what your are doing, the LM and video are in complete agreement.

 

The mark that the tee leaves on the bottom of the club that makes it appear that you are hitting out to in may just mean that the lie of the club is too upright for you, this is especially true with woods, particularly if you are shorter than average, have short legs and long arms or swing relatively flat.

 

BTW, the way you describe your release as "the butt of the club going left" is very good, don't try "slinging it down the line," it's not the best way to release the club. Try doing it and you are taking a giant step backwards in your development as a ballstriker IMHO.

 

Good luck!

[FlemmingMertz]

Two possible scenarios, but off course they are just guesses, since we have no video:

 

Ball position.

It is perfectly possible to swing inside-out, but hit the ball outside in. Here's why. Generally we talk about outside-in or inside-out as the path the club takes from its position at the top of the backswing, to impact. But this is not really the truth, because you can manipulate this with your ball position. This is a bit technical, but allow me to continue.

 

The low point of the club will be somewhere below your left shoulder, if hitting right handed. Try gripping your driver with just the left hand, and without cocking your hand, swing it back a feet or two, and then down to the ball. We can agree, that in this litte swing, the club comes from the inside down to the low point, right? But what if I move the ball position out on the outside of my left foot? This means that the club will continue further then the low point, and since it rotates around my body, it will actually swing outside-in when contacting the ball.

 

I'm not saying that I think your ball position is a feet outside your leading foot when adressing it. But this displacement of the ball can happen during the swing, if you hang back, or fail to transfer the wait back to the ball. So as an experiment, move the ball back 3-4 inches. If you still hit it outside-in, it's your swing path thats flawed.

 

The other possibilaty is quick hips. It is actually possible to come down on plane, but if you fire your hips to fast, they will pull your shoulders around to quickly, leading to an outside-in path in the last part of your swing, all tough you where inside-out most of the way.

 

Both if these ideas are a bit technical, and just guesses, since I have not seen you hit. So lets see some video if possible, or lets hear how you do with your swing changes.

[MWL]

Thanks for all your help so far. I am 6"1, i have checked my ball position and it seems ok. I definately have trouble turning through the ball, which I have been working on recently, i tend to slide more than turn. I have posted a couple of videos on youtube. Here are the links: the first one is down the line, the second face on.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9tJJRdxafo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onXxUXSmWbE

 

Thanks again for your insight.

[JeffMann]

I have studied your swing using a swing analyser program. You have a superb swing, and it definitely is not out-to-in in the impact zone. It is possible that that you occasionally pull-hook the ball if you try to swing left, because "trying to swing left" may cause you to come slightly OTT with a small degree of shoulder roundhousing and it may also cause you to over-roll the wrists through the impact zone. You already have a horizontal hinge action and you don't want to exaggerate that feeling. I think that you get through the ball very well with no sign of an excessive slide. I would recommend that you do not ARTIFICIALLY try and swing left. Simply swing through the ball along a natural path. Your present swing path is superb, but because you are tall and therefore have a relatively upright swing, even a small degree of shoulder roundhousing will cause an out-to-in swingpath.

 

Jeff.

[MWL]

Thanks Jeff, I tried swinging more in to out today and just hooked every single approach shot... 0 greens in reg for 9 holes and only missed one fairway.. thats a first... so maybe i should just stick with things and try and play the fade.. I kind of panicked after getting custom fit and being told by the fitter that my swing was "rubbish", to swing more upright and loop back to the inside... i think i just get stuck and flip it using that kind of swing..

[webmstrk9]

Keep in mind, everyone has tendencies. Play to yours. I think the hardest shot to hit is dead straight. GL

[slicefixer]

AS your a good player I'd bet the ranch your ARMS are out of synch and BEHIND your body rotation.......Your core/trunk/torso is "draggin' your arms" on the downswing......NO width.....NARROW and INSIDE ARCs are created by the arms and subsequently the clubhead........feeling of being "handcuffed" or "jammed up" through impact........butt of the club is moving too much "inside-out" through most of the downswing......the body feels "spun out" through impact.......

 

When this happens and you TRY and unwind/rotate in the downswing the arms/club are LATE and by the time they enter the impact zone the body is "too far gone".....ie. OPEN and too much "on top"......As a result of being out of synch the club is traveling on too INSIDE a track through most of the downswing and when the body arrives in what SHOULD be your impact position and the club SHOULD be releasing the CLUB isn't there to release.......it's out of synch and behind your butt........

 

However, nobody told the body this so it continues to rotate LEFT and, as the body feels the club won't square, it REALLY power spins left which then throws the arms/club "out and over" and the clubhead is essentially "thrown" into a VERY steep and "over" path.........last second attempt to square the face by the core......

 

Result, you have a tendency to create some serious divots at times and they all point too far left and you hit wipes/pulls........MOST good players will react by ingraining some type of hang back and sling in an attempt to get the arms back out in front of the core and the clubhead on a shallower ARC and keep it on an inside path/ARC.........when this happens you go from diggin' trenches to hardly making a divot at all......and you go from wipes/pulls to drop kick hooks or even snappers on occasion........

 

Might be wrong, but, I'd bet that I'm at least "warm"...........:)

[JeffMann]

Tigersocks

 

I think that it is a mistake to try and avoid an out-to-in swingpath at impact by trying to swing from the inside. If the clubpath comes from too-inside it is going to result in hooks if the clubface is slightly closed at impact. You need to have a neutral approach, where the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line when it is the delivery position.

 

See this swing video showing the "pump it" drill which engrains a downswing movement that starts with the hips. Note how she demonstrates that the club must not be too-inside, or too-outside, when the right elbow is pulled toward the right hip area.

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/threa...+secret+to+golf

 

Note that she talks of the clubshaft bisecting the right forearm. Then, note that the clubshaft becomes parallel to the ball-target line when it reaches the delivery position (a point over the toe line when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground). That's a good path direction that is not too-inside or OTT.

 

Jeff.

[JeffMann]

Another point - look at this swing video of another amateur golfer.

 

http://media.putfile.com/mySwing1

 

Note how short his legs are relative to his entire body, and note his overall short body height. That means that when using a standard length club, he has to have flat clubshaft angle at address. By contrast, you are tall, and the butt end of your club barely reaches your mid-upper thigh. That means that your clubshaft angle at address is going to be much steeper. It is much easier to swing OTT and have an out-to-in swinpath in the peri-impact zone if the clubshaft angle angle at address is steeper. Have you ever experimented with longer clubs that will allow you to have a less steep clubshaft angle at address?

 

Jeff.

[Slugsy]

AS your a good player I'd bet the ranch your ARMS are out of synch and BEHIND your body rotation.......Your core/trunk/torso is "draggin' your arms" on the downswing......NO width.....NARROW and INSIDE ARCs are created by the arms and subsequently the clubhead........feeling of being "handcuffed" or "jammed up" through impact........butt of the club is moving too much "inside-out" through most of the downswing......the body feels "spun out" through impact.......

 

When this happens and you TRY and unwind/rotate in the downswing the arms/club are LATE and by the time they enter the impact zone the body is "too far gone".....ie. OPEN and too much "on top"......As a result of being out of synch the club is traveling on too INSIDE a track through most of the downswing and when the body arrives in what SHOULD be your impact position and the club SHOULD be releasing the CLUB isn't there to release.......it's out of synch and behind your butt........

 

However, nobody told the body this so it continues to rotate LEFT and, as the body feels the club won't square, it REALLY power spins left which then throws the arms/club "out and over" and the clubhead is essentially "thrown" into a VERY steep and "over" path.........last second attempt to square the face by the core......

 

Result, you have a tendency to create some serious divots at times and they all point too far left and you hit wipes/pulls........MOST good players will react by ingraining some type of hang back and sling in an attempt to get the arms back out in front of the core and the clubhead on a shallower ARC and keep it on an inside path/ARC.........when this happens you go from diggin' trenches to hardly making a divot at all......and you go from wipes/pulls to drop kick hooks or even snappers on occasion........

 

Might be wrong, but, I'd bet that I'm at least "warm"...........:)

 

Slicefixer, this is very familiar and sounds like an issue I have - do you have any recommendations as to how to go about sorting it out? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[bell812]

SliceFixer, that is my move! How do I stop?

[MWL]

Thanks Slice, Jeff..

 

my arms do indeed seem to be getting jammed and i either hold on and swipe it or flip it..