Classic project for the winter...

[jonnygrouville]

Spending some time over the winter trying to bring something back to its former glory. My golf swing!

 

Have been getting stally and flippy (the two dwarves who were too busy down the range to mine precious gems), rotating arms too soon on the downswing. Now trying to bring in some of the old school stuff. Remember shallow golf swings? Bent right arms at impact?

 

If anyone gives a $/!t...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So a bit better all in all. Shallow, keeping back some arm rotation and a bit more pivot through the ball.

 

Plenty of winter to go, so hopefully a more classic swing by summer...

[BIG STU]

Like it of course I am old school anyhow. I actually had to shorten mine last winter. My swing is sorta complicated due to i used to auto self correct and reroute the club. When one gets older the hands and senses do not work with the brain like they used to.

[stixman]

Very impressive Jonny, it's a most worthy project.

 

Me, I'm still on the exhortations from 'Double Bogey Blues'!

[jonnygrouville]

I've shortened my arm swing, but wish I had more hip turn. Curse of the X Factor! I am sure I speak for many people when I say damn you Jim McClean! Damn you to the bowels of hell!

 

[jonnygrouville]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk9oPANsftc

 

The beauty of the swings only matched by the ugliness of the putting strokes. Probably an indication of what greens used to be like.

 

[birly-shirly]

Really solid looking right there Jonny. If you're done with that swing, please send it north where I could use it.

[scomac2002]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk9oPANsftc

 

The beauty of the swings only matched by the ugliness of the putting strokes. Probably an indication of what greens used to be like.

 

Thanks for posting the link. I really enjoyed watching that. Yes the putting strokes are pretty wristy compared to what we see today, but as you say, one would expect the condition of the greens to be different today.

 

What really caught my attention was how smooth and relaxed the swings were compared to the way many really go after the ball today particularly with the driver. It's no surprise to me why so many modern era players are suffering back injuries the way in which they lash out at the ball. It has ruined Tiger, but he had a good run of ten years, so maybe that's about all we can expect in this day and age -- hit the tour in their early 20's and they're cooked by their early 30's.

 

We also should take note that you don't have to be super long when you're in the fairway all the time. Hogan was "only" 250 off the tee, but he was always in the fairway. He had no problem with a 7000 yard course playing that way. It ain't the length, it's the control that counts, something that has been completely lost in modern club design, at least in the way in which they are marketed! We make golf equipment; we're here to sell you stuff, we're not here to help you play better!

[BIG STU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk9oPANsftc

 

The beauty of the swings only matched by the ugliness of the putting strokes. Probably an indication of what greens used to be like.

 

Thanks for posting the link. I really enjoyed watching that. Yes the putting strokes are pretty wristy compared to what we see today, but as you say, one would expect the condition of the greens to be different today.

 

What really caught my attention was how smooth and relaxed the swings were compared to the way many really go after the ball today particularly with the driver. It's no surprise to me why so many modern era players are suffering back injuries the way in which they lash out at the ball. It has ruined Tiger, but he had a good run of ten years, so maybe that's about all we can expect in this day and age -- hit the tour in their early 20's and they're cooked by their early 30's.

 

We also should take note that you don't have to be super long when you're in the fairway all the time. Hogan was "only" 250 off the tee, but he was always in the fairway. He had no problem with a 7000 yard course playing that way. It ain't the length, it's the control that counts, something that has been completely lost in modern club design, at least in the way in which they are marketed! We make golf equipment; we're here to sell you stuff, we're not here to help you play better!

I can remember back in the day when the reverse C was the thing. Now my old man who was a golf pro had degree also in physical fitness and training in fact he had a job at a small college one time as the Athletic trainer. He told me and explained to me about the reverse swing along with a violent swing would do to one's body in time. looking back the only golfer that I ever saw that did not have back problems with the reverse C was Colin Montgomerie. His swing was and still is smooth as silk. Now I was fast as heck and did the rerouting thing but I was somewhat smooth. At 60 I have not had any back problems that are prolonged. I did learn my lesson about 8 years ago. My buddy called me one day and the new Hathaway driver heads had came in and he had built a couple up for demos. It was cold that day and I jumped out of the wrecker I was driving straight to the range and started pounding balls with absolutely no warm up. I felt it that night and absolutely could not get out of bed the next morning. Finally went to my Doc. Turns out I had stretched my lower back and side muscles. I was laid up for about a week. Man it was almost as bad as kidney stones. I was lucky no permanant or lingering damage. I learned my lesson. I do mobility exercises every day and really warm up especially in cold weather before even attempting to hit a ball. I also take ibuprofen before playing to help keep me limber my doc says it is ok. It was cold this morning and I was on the range early but I had limbered up at home and again at the range. I hit I would say at least 30 balls with the wedges before doing some needed Driver work. Played today and it was cold but I stayed loose and did not hit at it hard. I turn the mass pretty good to be a 300 lb old fat man

[jonnygrouville]

The criticisms of the reverse C also seemed to sound the death knell of secondary axis tilt and being behind the ball, but you need to do both, you just need to do them right.

 

Like losing height. My head used to drop loads as I learned watching Grouville senior who has a huge dip into the ball. "Keeping my height" and "covering the ball with my chest" turned my striking to the smelly brown stuff.

 

[HoldenCornfield]

Spending some time over the winter trying to bring something back to its former glory. My golf swing!

 

Have been getting stally and flippy (the two dwarves who were too busy down the range to mine precious gems), rotating arms too soon on the downswing. Now trying to bring in some of the old school stuff. Remember shallow golf swings? Bent right arms at impact?

 

If anyone gives a $/!t...

 

 

So a bit better all in all. Shallow, keeping back some arm rotation and a bit more pivot through the ball.

 

Plenty of winter to go, so hopefully a more classic swing by summer...

 

Good for you, Jonny, a worthy project for sure. Especially when done in conjunction with the classic sticks. Actually, it may only be possible with the shorter, flatter, heavier clubs of old. The modern clubs -- long, light and upright -- may very well be responsible for your stall and flip, at least that's my opinion.

 

I began the same sort of project in late 2012 after becoming rather disgusted with my golf game. Just before giving up on the whole thing I took some video to see what I was doing wrong. What I saw was rather ghastly -- my swing had disintegrated into an extremely upright, steeply disconnected arm swing. Well, says I, that explains all of my back pain, at least.

 

The details of my epiphany have become muddled now in my addled brain, I can't remember if it was my first acquistion of classic clubs (Hogan Medallions and a set of Hogan mahogany persimmons with black inserts -- I remember that much!) that led me to the study of the classic swing or if it was a re-reading for the first time in 20+ years of Hogan's Five Fundamentals that led me to ebay in search of classic Hogan clubs.

 

Regardless, I ended up at John Erickson's site advancedballstriking where, admittedly, at first glance I thought he was completely off his rocker. But the more I read and experimented, the more intrigued I became. I estimate I hit 35,000 - 40,000 golf balls in the next 18 months, all without back pain (the right elbow, that's a different story!) as I worked to incorporate the flat, body driven pivot method.

 

My journey continues today, for sure. I may never reach my destination, an 18 hole round of level par or better. You've done that countless times and are already a much more accomplished golfer than 99% of those who ever don the togs and stride the fairways, yet you still seek improvement.

 

That's the beauty of this game, isn't it? Complete mastery is unobtainable, yet the game compels us to continually re-endeavor.

 

And the best version of this great game is the one played with persimmon woods and forged steel irons.

 

[steps off soapbox]

[jonnygrouville]

Amen to that brother.

 

[Kirasdad]

+1 on your amen, Johnny

[jonnygrouville]

Looking at those putting strokes, might the putters have had something to do with it?

 

I know with hickory I get a better strike from it with a bit of wrist, but even Ironmasters and so on seem to respond better to a different sort of stroke as the modern pendulum approach doesn't work as well.

 

Maybe size and location of the sweetspot? Tricky to hit on the up and find the middle of the club.

 

[birly-shirly]

My guess would be that both strokes and putters were adapted to much slower green speeds. There is stimpmeter data from the late '70s that shows championship courses, incl Augusta, running between 7 and 10. But with the greens at Troon this year running between 9 and 10, they were described as "glacial".

 

On what must have been much, much slower greens in the '50s - I don't expect you could hit a ball 20 feet without a bit of wrist action, which becomes a bit easier with a lighter headweight.

[jonnygrouville]

 

Swing looking a little better. Still a bit of a stall, but club face behaving itself a little bit more. Camera on the ground is not flattering as the right elbow is staying in front more as well, just lagging behind a little into the ball.

 

Shallow too as not having any trouble getting Busson modified M85 up off the deck. I drop my right foot back a little with the longer clubs, so it always looks a little bit like a pull. Flush though!

 

[birly-shirly]

Looks good! Liking the slight laid off/rotary look. After watching your swing, youtube wants to show me Kendra Vallone and Monty Python. Not sure if that's a you-thing or a me-thing...

[sbboudreau]

Spending some time over the winter trying to bring something back to its former glory. My golf swing!

 

Have been getting stally and flippy (the two dwarves who were too busy down the range to mine precious gems), rotating arms too soon on the downswing. Now trying to bring in some of the old school stuff. Remember shallow golf swings? Bent right arms at impact?

 

If anyone gives a $/!t...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So a bit better all in all. Shallow, keeping back some arm rotation and a bit more pivot through the ball.

 

Plenty of winter to go, so hopefully a more classic swing by summer...

Don't they have heat where you're practicing? I should be doing the same, lord knows I need it.

[Juice__25]

Have you messed with foot flare in one or both of your feet? I kept messing with them till I found a square front foot, flared out back foot worked for me.

 

This really helped me with my hip turn and getting that desired X factor! Lol. It also secondarily helped me get rid of my stall.

[jonnygrouville]

Yes, trying to get the club more laid off, slightly flatter, slightly more open. Still that stall, but getting two woods up off the deck so can't be that bad.

 

It is cold, yes!

 

Trying to free up the hip turn, getting the right toe a little bit more flared out would help. Good idea...

 

[HoldenCornfield]

 

Swing looking a little better. Still a bit of a stall, but club face behaving itself a little bit more. Camera on the ground is not flattering as the right elbow is staying in front more as well, just lagging behind a little into the ball.

 

Shallow too as not having any trouble getting Busson modified M85 up off the deck. I drop my right foot back a little with the longer clubs, so it always looks a little bit like a pull. Flush though!

 

It does look good. One thing I noticed in your setup is that you're 'reaching' a little bit for the ball. The arms need to be a little more cohesive to the body in order to facilitate the bent right elbow at impact -- a tell-tale sign that one is powering thru impact with body rotation. If there's too much space the inclination is to stall the pivot and fling the hands/arms out at the ball -- the swinger's protocol.

 

Ask me how I know this, lol.

 

Its much harder to pull this off with the woods than the irons. With the greater centripetal force of the longer club the harder it is to keep it in proper orbit as it wants to shoot off to the right. Jackie Burke Jr has said that Hogan was big on muscle tension in the left armpit to counteract this.

 

BTW, my credentials for offering swing advice are as unassailable as your barber's on brain surgery. So, keep that in mind.

[jonnygrouville]

Credentials or no, I'm with you on all of that. Must be the blind leading the blind!

 

I have long arms so have always had to reach so my hands don't end up too low, toe of the club way up in the air. With persimmons and flatter older clubs, I could probably relax this more and have my hands back at a more natural height.

 

You're also right that this is easier with the irons. Definitely a more classic look.