Left shoulder in backswing

[jut111]

Could be mistaken, but I believe he's referring to independent shoulder motion, not shoulder movement caused by side bend.

[TB07]

Could be mistaken, but I believe he's referring to independent shoulder motion, not shoulder movement caused by side bend.

 

The whole thread is about elevating the left shoulder or not. He said let the shoulder "elevate" and it "can't turn 90 to spine (left shoulder down)".

[jut111]

The left shoulder can move down in relation to the ground yet still elevate from an anatomical perspective. I think that's what Newton is saying. If his argument is that it doesn't move down in relation to the ground, well that's ridiculous and not much of a thread.

[isaac newton]

When you say elevate, do you mean as in a shrug, or more protraction?

 

Raise, lift ....Elevate. I guess that is what you would call a shrug?

 

Suggest you take your grip, Elevate the left shoulder an inch toward the left ear then take your BS.

Your extension of left arm will increase around 10 inches.

The reason to do this is not to increase width and not to wear a hole in your golf shirt.

Its a meaningless detail whether the shoulder gets closer to the ground or not in BS.

 

The REASON to elevate the left shoulder during our BS is to allow left hand to be further from your torso than right hand at top of BS. Now you know why Hogan had a cup in his left wrist?

 

So now, what is the reason to move left shoulder down for the BS? or 90 degrees to the spine....to get closer to the ground? to make left arm shorter?

 

http://www.mbmyoskel...r-range-motion/

[Macogardy]

Your right it's very natural to shrug left shoulder up in relation to your upper body as you engage that shoulder to lift your arm. Although biomechanically in 3D space the shoulder may show it overall moving down and back

[TB07]

I don't think when the OP asks if shoulder should move down and Monte answers that it should, that they are saying down relative to the spine angle.

[isaac newton]

Your right it's very natural to shrug left shoulder up in relation to your upper body as you engage that shoulder to lift your arm. Although biomechanically in 3D space the shoulder may show it overall moving down and back

 

Thank you.

 

 

The golf club and our are levers, as is the scapular system. Engaging those levers to multiple force is lag.

 

To maximize lag, we simply have to have the levers working in the same plane. ie both arms and golf club... slot.

Cant do it be mimicking positions.

[isaac newton]

I don't think when the OP asks if shoulder should move down and Monte answers that it should, that they are saying down relative to the spine angle.

 

 

Monte's proper turn of shoulders, demonstrated with video below has forward tilt then turns shoulder joints with stick held against his shoulders, 90 degrees to his spine. Both left and right shoulder joints working in unison with spine movement, if we are to believe what Monte demonstrates.

 

That is clearly down relative to forward tilt and 90 degrees to spine, (perpendicular).

 

Truth is left and right scapula have a huge ROM independent of each other and independent of the spine.

When we elevate both shoulders we can turn left scapula to our right 20 degrees and right scapula 20 degrees back to the left... without moving or twisting the spine.

 

 

[isaac newton]

I don't think when the OP asks if shoulder should move down and Monte answers that it should, that they are saying down relative to the spine angle.

 

OP asked if left shoulder should elevate up as in shrugging one's shoulders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

During the backswing should the left shoulder rise in conjunction with the arms lifting?

 

As a reference point, if one is standing straight up and I'd call this a neutral position. And if the left shoulder lifts as in shrugging one's shoulders, I'd call that rising.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Left shoulder in backswing ?

... I'll say it's not that important.

For the backswing .. concentrate on the right hip.

The higher and deeper you get the right hip, the lower the left shoulder will be.

 

Just like Lag isn't a goal it is an indication of a good swing. (You can't add lag to a swing) ... you can't add left shoulder down by purposely concentrating on moving it. I can't see how that would be possible.

 

In the backswing it seems like the right side has a much more active role in shaping the backswing than the left .. why ? because it LEADS the left. Really the left side is just getting dragged around by an active right side.

 

For the left shoulder in the backswing ...

Think of the weight of the left arm (throw in the club's weight if you want) .... do you really think it can impact (ie. lead) what the rest of the upper body (torso + head + right arm) will do ? It just doesn't have the mass to do it !

 

I think of it like this ... it is easier for the left side to move if the right side gets out of the way.

and the opposite is true in the downswing .. the left side of the body dictates what the right can do.

 

Overactive / Purposeful movement of the left shoulder results in that faux shoulder turn that has been discussed. It's where your shoulders LOOK turned alot (when viewed face on) ... but they aren't.

 

In the backswing ... the right hip dictates how low the left shoulder will get. The way I see it ... the shoulders are relatively passive things kinda just pasted onto the chest wall via the scapula. Shoulder motion is mostly dictated by the torso and the hips move the torso. The only other element to think about is the arms and club which can impact the shoulders but I think their impact has been overstated.

 

 

Q: Left shoulder in backswing ?

A: Not a major player.

 

Q: Do you want left shoulder down ? Then think right hip up (and deep). How do you accomplish that ? straighten the right leg as you bend the left knee.

 

In a flat shoulder turn ... the left shoulder is closer to the ball target line at P4 than it should be and is too high from the ground ... contrast that with ... a deep right hip turn (right hip moves deep to the ball target line and higher than at address) ... allows the the left shoulder to move down more and it ends up further away from the ball target line than a flat turn.

 

Why have people talked about left shoulder low and completely missed the left shoulder deep ? or have I just missed it ? Maybe the 3D people talk about it ?

I assume we are talking about very small distances ... but they are important inches IMO :)

[isaac newton]

Left shoulder in backswing ?

... I'll say it's not that important.

For the backswing .. concentrate on the right hip.

The higher and deeper you get the right hip, the lower the left shoulder will be.

 

Just like Lag isn't a goal it is an indication of a good swing. (You can't add lag to a swing) ... you can't add left shoulder down by purposely concentrating on moving it. I can't see how that would be possible.

 

In the backswing it seems like the right side has a much more active role in shaping the backswing than the left .. why ? because it LEADS the left. Really the left side is just getting dragged around by an active right side.

 

For the left shoulder in the backswing ...

Think of the weight of the left arm (throw in the club's weight if you want) .... do you really think it can impact (ie. lead) what the rest of the upper body (torso + head + right arm) will do ? It just doesn't have the mass to do it !

 

I think of it like this ... it is easier for the left side to move if the right side gets out of the way.

and the opposite is true in the downswing .. the left side of the body dictates what the right can do.

 

Overactive / Purposeful movement of the left shoulder results in that faux shoulder turn that has been discussed. It's where your shoulders LOOK turned alot (when viewed face on) ... but they aren't.

 

In the backswing ... the right hip dictates how low the left shoulder will get. The way I see it ... the shoulders are relatively passive things kinda just pasted onto the chest wall via the scapula. Shoulder motion is mostly dictated by the torso and the hips move the torso. The only other element to think about is the arms and club which can impact the shoulders but I think their impact has been overstated.

 

 

Q: Left shoulder in backswing ?

A: Not a major player.

 

Q: Do you want left shoulder down ? Then think right hip up (and deep). How do you accomplish that ? straighten the right leg as you bend the left knee.

 

In a flat shoulder turn ... the left shoulder is closer to the ball target line at P4 than it should be and is too high from the ground ... contrast that with ... a deep right hip turn (right hip moves deep to the ball target line and higher than at address) ... allows the the left shoulder to move down more and it ends up further away from the ball target line than a flat turn.

 

Why have people talked about left shoulder low and completely missed the left shoulder deep ? or have I just missed it ? Maybe the 3D people talk about it ?

I assume we are talking about very small distances ... but they are important inches IMO :)

 

 

Just like Lag isn't a goal it is an indication of a good swing. (You can't add lag to a swing) ... you can't add left shoulder down by purposely concentrating on moving it. I can't see how that would be possible.

 

Please define the lag you are saying isnt a goal.

 

You certainly can add lag to a swing.. and it starts with using the left scapula in a specific way. I digress.

Your definition of lag, please

[SunkTheBirdie]

Your definition of lag, please

Ooops. This thread is about the left shoulder. I'll happily talk about lag elsewhere.

 

So how about my outlined shoulder plane theory ?

[SunkTheBirdie]

Trying to poke holes in the theory ....

- maybe the scapula moves a fair amount on the chest wall ?

- the shoulder moves in 3D, so you need to account for depth, height, and the other dimension (distance along the ball target line from the ball).

[TB07]

I don't think when the OP asks if shoulder should move down and Monte answers that it should, that they are saying down relative to the spine angle.

 

 

Monte's proper turn of shoulders, demonstrated with video below has forward tilt then turns shoulder joints with stick held against his shoulders, 90 degrees to his spine. Both left and right shoulder joints working in unison with spine movement, if we are to believe what Monte demonstrates.

 

That is clearly down relative to forward tilt and 90 degrees to spine, (perpendicular).

 

Truth is left and right scapula have a huge ROM independent of each other and independent of the spine.

When we elevate both shoulders we can turn left scapula to our right 20 degrees and right scapula 20 degrees back to the left... without moving or twisting the spine.

 

 

 

So you are saying hogan doesn't move his left shoulder down relative to his FORWaRD TILT right?

[isaac newton]

I don't think when the OP asks if shoulder should move down and Monte answers that it should, that they are saying down relative to the spine angle.

 

 

Monte's proper turn of shoulders, demonstrated with video below has forward tilt then turns shoulder joints with stick held against his shoulders, 90 degrees to his spine. Both left and right shoulder joints working in unison with spine movement, if we are to believe what Monte demonstrates.

 

That is clearly down relative to forward tilt and 90 degrees to spine, (perpendicular).

 

Truth is left and right scapula have a huge ROM independent of each other and independent of the spine.

When we elevate both shoulders we can turn left scapula to our right 20 degrees and right scapula 20 degrees back to the left... without moving or twisting the spine.

 

 

 

So you are saying hogan doesn't move his left shoulder down relative to his FORWaRD TILT right?

 

I stated what I stated. How you want to twist those words is up to you.

 

If you disagree with a statement Ive made, Im open to discuss what i stated, not your interpretation (alternate fact) of what was stated.

[isaac newton]

Your definition of lag, please

Ooops. This thread is about the left shoulder. I'll happily talk about lag elsewhere.

 

So how about my outlined shoulder plane theory ?

 

My position is that clubhead speed is a result of lag.

 

My point is that we move the left shoulder in a particular way for a reason.

Im saying, that elevating the left shoulder before and/or during the BS extends the reach of the left arm which results in increase in lag.

 

you seem to be about describing a move of left shoulder 90 degrees to spine, for sake of describing.

 

Yes ,if we slide our right hip back to our right, our spine will tilt and left shoulder will go down, and right leg will straighten.

That is my point. Hips are apart of the pelvic basin, which is connected to our vertebrae. When right hip slides the spine is moved with it and to counter balance, our head moves in opposite direction. Thats anatomy, not golf swing. Similarly if left shoulder joint moves down, the right hip slides back to the right, and right leg straightens. Neither describes a proper BS, IMO.

 

If turning shoulder joints 90 degrees to spine in BS with right hip sliding behind, right leg straightening

doesnt contribute to lag?

How does it contribute to the golf swing?

[SunkTheBirdie]

The best way to flatten your swing plane is to laterally sway, especially your upper body, off the golf ball.

 

Q: Do you want left shoulder down ? Then think right hip up (and deep).

 

Has anyone seen any golf animations with an accurate skeleton performing the swing ?

[jut111]

 

 

$25 bucks at Walmart. Glows in the dark too. Why don't you make one?

[Ghost of Snead]

 

 

$25 bucks at Walmart. Glows in the dark too. Why don't you make one?

 

Hysterical ... might keep him off the forums for awhile. Where would we go for swing advice ?

[Fade]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKnf4lmmDCw[/media]

[SunkTheBirdie]

Left shoulder in backswing ?

... I'll say it's not that important.

For the backswing .. concentrate on the right hip.

The higher and deeper you get the right hip, the lower the left shoulder will be.

 

Just like Lag isn't a goal it is an indication of a good swing. (You can't add lag to a swing) ... you can't add left shoulder down by purposely concentrating on moving it. I can't see how that would be possible.

 

In the backswing it seems like the right side has a much more active role in shaping the backswing than the left .. why ? because it LEADS the left. The right hip getting deep early creates the space to enable the left shoulder to get low. Really the left side is only able to use space that is created by the right side getting out of the way.

 

For the left shoulder in the backswing ...

Think of the weight of the left arm (throw in the club's weight if you want) .... do you really think it can impact (ie. lead) what the rest of the upper body (torso + head + right arm) will do ? It just doesn't have the mass to do it !

 

I think of it like this ... in the backswing it is easier for the left side to move if the right side gets out of the way.

and the opposite is true in the downswing .. the left side of the body dictates what the right can do. In the DS, GG gets the left side out of the way early to create power. Makes sense to me.

 

Overactive / Purposeful movement of the left shoulder results in that faux shoulder turn that has been discussed. It's where your shoulders LOOK turned alot (when viewed face on) ... but they aren't.

 

In the backswing ... the right hip dictates how low the left shoulder will get. The way I see it ... the shoulders are relatively passive things kinda just pasted onto the chest wall via the scapula. Shoulder motion is mostly dictated by the torso and the hips move the torso. The only other element to think about is the arms and club which can impact the shoulders but I think their impact has been overstated.

 

 

Q: Left shoulder in backswing ?

A: The ability of the left shoulder to go low is dependent on how deep you get the right hip in the backswing.

 

Q: Do you want left shoulder down in the backswing ? Then think right hip deep (deep = right hip get further from the ball target line than at address). How do you accomplish a deep right hip ? straighten the right leg as you bend the left knee.

 

In a flat shoulder turn ... the left shoulder is closer to the ball target line at P4 than it should be and is too high from the ground ... contrast that with ... a deep right hip turn (right hip moves deep to the ball target line and higher than at address) ... allows the the left shoulder to move down more and it ends up further away from the ball target line than a flat turn.

 

Why have people talked about left shoulder low and completely missed the left shoulder deep ? or have I just missed it ? Maybe the 3D people talk about it ?

I assume we are talking about very small distances ... but they are important inches IMO :).

 

Deep right hip helps the Left shoulder get "low".

 

Addendum: Left side bend = deep right hip + left knee bend :).

 

Try this feel drill that isolates what the lower body does in the golf swing.

The thread also shows you that you cannot rotate your shoulders 90 degrees relative to your spine !

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1471390-shoulder-turn-left-knee-bend-right-leg-straighten-backswing/

[royourboat]

I like the enthusiasm STB, but simplifying aspects of anatomy to base a theory is fine for anecdotes, not for anything accurate. Your descriptions basically missed thoracic rotation and less importantly several scap muscles.

 

I like your idea, right hip high, left shoulder low, but I wouldn't say you've given any evidence to why there is a relationship.

 

I think more-or-less we want to swing the club on something resembling a plane. With the body we are given, it contorts to achieve this. Right hip may be high or level with left, but it should be rotated to aid vertebrae (mostly thoracic), scapulae and humerus create sufficient and safe range of motion of left arm and club on a 'plane'. The fact the clubhead CoM is not inline with the shaft axis and the body is irregularly shaped for the task, it distorts the 'plane' we try to achieve.

 

Monte and others answered the OP question. To add to this, if you are still "lifting" or "shrugging" shoulder to make a backswing, you may have some movement deficiencies.

[shantaspine28]

great Stuff