Lie Angles; New vs. Old, Theoretical vs. Practical

[scomac2002]

I like to query the group as to your collective experiences with lie angles on irons and how they've played for you versus the theoretical ideal.

 

A few years ago I was fitted for a set of Ping i25's, yellow dot +1/4" in TPC 189 R. Essentially the static fitting was confirmed with dynamic results including use of a lie board. I've had mixed results with those clubs in use since that time with a variability in control being the biggest complaint.

 

The various sets of vintage irons that I have played in the past couple of years are all quite a bit flatter in lie angle than the Pings. Results have been more consistent in terms of dispersion and accuracy to target. The Apex Plus that I'm currently playing the most are significantly better at flying online towards target than the Pings ever were and they are bog standard lie which is 2° flatter in lie angle than the Pings. Divots are nice and square with no evidence of being toe heavy.

 

I'm left wondering if my swing has changed significantly enough to favour a flatter lie angle or if this has something to do with the amount of droop in the graphite shaft versus a steel shaft. Any thoughts on this? How have your own experiences impacted your choice of lie angle in your clubs?

[NRJyzr]

Sco, I'm thinking droop could be involved somewhat, though it's related to the exact shafts in play, not so much graphite vs steel. There are steel shafts that would give you similar droop. :)

 

Another possible factor, something that affected me for a great while... if you learned the game on "standard" lie golf clubs and only relatively recently discovered you need something a bit more upright, your swing is accustomed to the extra release required to get a straighter flight out of a too flat club. When you swing something more upright, you get draws and/or pulls.

 

A couple random thoughts before I head in to the office for a meeting...

[birly-shirly]

In terms of "theoretical ideal" - I'd argue that it doesn't really exist. I guess you're talking about static fitting recommendations based on body measurements, but really the test is hitting balls. Both changes in your swing and changes in the club set up will likely change what "your numbers" are. As NRJyzr says, the numbers are very much specific to how YOU swing THAT club.

 

Even dynamic fitting has its issues. Some people seem to subscribe to a view that toe-side impacts mandate a more upright lie. Others have had a bad experience with lie boards. And some fitters appear to be fixated on "perfect" horizontal scorelines at impact - even if it means flattening a club that is already going to the right.

 

I still think a second hand loft and lie machine is some of the best money I've ever spent on golf gear. Trial and error beats any rule of thumb for specs, including how clubs should progress from one to another through the set. Makes cheaply bought sets of irons perform like champs. And I can still hardly believe how out of spec some of the old forged sets I've picked up have been. I've moved some hosels easily 6* to get them in line.

[baloo]

Some dynamic fitting methods are much better than others. I usually fit into 1 upright statically and on a lie board, but I actually need 2-3 flat.

 

I went to a Taylormade Performance lab and they fit me into 3 flat with their motion capture system. I only have vintage clubs now, but 2-3 flat is where I'm happiest. As mentioned above, the shaft also matters because of toe droop.

 

At the end of the day, I prefer feel and comfort over a dynamic fitting, so I say use what you like to look at and can comfortably swing.

[TimV]

I'm also wondering if club length is making at least part of the difference.

[scomac2002]

Sco, I'm thinking droop could be involved somewhat, though it's related to the exact shafts in play, not so much graphite vs steel. There are steel shafts that would give you similar droop. :)

 

Another possible factor, something that affected me for a great while... if you learned the game on "standard" lie golf clubs and only relatively recently discovered you need something a bit more upright, your swing is accustomed to the extra release required to get a straighter flight out of a too flat club. When you swing something more upright, you get draws and/or pulls.

 

A couple random thoughts before I head in to the office for a meeting...

 

As I recall the clubs I learned on were not particularly flat. Having said that I wonder if the flatter lie angles favour my outside-in swing path taking a touch of the pull out of the club face. I don't have to manipulate the Hogans at all to get the ball to go where I want to versus the Pings that I was always fiddling with my set-up trying to correct the lefts.

[scomac2002]

Some dynamic fitting methods are much better than others. I usually fit into 1 upright statically and on a lie board, but I actually need 2-3 flat.

 

I went to a Taylormade Performance lab and they fit me into 3 flat with their motion capture system. I only have vintage clubs now, but 2-3 flat is where I'm happiest. As mentioned above, the shaft also matters because of toe droop.

 

At the end of the day, I prefer feel and comfort over a dynamic fitting, so I say use what you like to look at and can comfortably swing.

 

When I first acquired these Hogans I anticipated that I would need to modify them in some way to get acceptable results. Fortunately, I decided to just swing em and see how they played first without even bothering to change the grips. I've been quite happy with the results so far, so I've been of the mind that if it ain't broke don't fix it! This has even got me considering going back to standard grips from mid size and then building up the bottom hand with a couple of extra wraps. Right now I'm playing more different grips in more different sizes than I can shake a stick at yet I've been getting along just fine with the hodge podge.

[scomac2002]

In terms of "theoretical ideal" - I'd argue that it doesn't really exist. I guess you're talking about static fitting recommendations based on body measurements, but really the test is hitting balls. Both changes in your swing and changes in the club set up will likely change what "your numbers" are. As NRJyzr says, the numbers are very much specific to how YOU swing THAT club.

 

Even dynamic fitting has its issues. Some people seem to subscribe to a view that toe-side impacts mandate a more upright lie. Others have had a bad experience with lie boards. And some fitters appear to be fixated on "perfect" horizontal scorelines at impact - even if it means flattening a club that is already going to the right.

 

I still think a second hand loft and lie machine is some of the best money I've ever spent on golf gear. Trial and error beats any rule of thumb for specs, including how clubs should progress from one to another through the set. Makes cheaply bought sets of irons perform like champs. And I can still hardly believe how out of spec some of the old forged sets I've picked up have been. I've moved some hosels easily 6* to get them in line.

 

Isn't this the truth! Between piecing together sets by trial and error to find a combination of clubs that works best for me, it's probably taken 10 years to get to that point! A lot of it was probably very expensive tuition. It's funny how you can luck into some things right from the get-go, but it takes years to learn that not all that glitters is gold! In some ways I have to think that the hickory era's method of one club at a time has a lot of merit over the methods of today.

[BIG STU]

Soco ------Absolutely correct! I hardly adjust lies on my clubs if I can hit them to begin with. My Callys I will not mess with period they were custom built and speced at the factory but not for me. I am actually the 3rd owner. The Old Toski Macs I did throw the PW and 9 iron on the machine to check the lofts when I first got them but the lies are good for me. I have the factory build sheet on the Callys somewhere and I know the lofts and lies on them and I have them written down in my personal notebook. They are hitting great so I do not mess with them.

Someone mentioned in a previous post that they have a out to in swing and a upright club causes them to hook the ball. Goes to show everyone is different. I have a out to in swing by design to combat a bad rope hook problem. Now if I have a club too flat I will hook the crap out of the ball. Too upright and I tend to block a shot.

[jonnygrouville]

Like it. A lot of my clubs were custom fit. For someone else. Decades before I was born.

 

[scunny]

Lie is all about where the loft points in its influence on direction(Face Plane Tilt) so when i'm fitting and coaching players its getting the player happy with where the ball starts and then its subsequent curve rather than the markings on the sole or divots. I use the face and line method now but the emphasis is always on the players comfort with how the ball flight plays