Anyone taken lessons at GolfTec?

[Solutions Etcetera]

I'm sorry but your arguments and justification for this are absurd. And you aren't doing Golftec any favors by defending their business policies... in fact I am a whole lot more ticked off now than before your last post.

*Yawn* I bet you're one of those guys who thinks that if a product with a 1-year warranty fails and must be replaced, the replacement product should carry and additional 1-year warranty, and not just the first year purchased with the product. Am I right? Be angry all you want, but you don't understand how business works, or plain English contracts for that matter. He bought FIVE lessons. He paid for FIVE lessons at the stated FIVE lesson price. This is pretty simple stuff.

Yeah, I guess I don't have any idea how business works... yet I have run my own, quite successfully, for almost a decade, with over 20,000 satisfied customers, and no complaints. Can you say the same? I didn't think so.

 

He bought $900 worth of lessons, used one third of them, and desired a refund for the balance, but received only half of that. Sure the "contract" may have indicated some vagaries about discounts not being honored with respect to refunds, but I am certain it didn't offer clear language that, if he cancelled early, the price for his used lessons would go up dramatically. You consider this fair. I maintain you have no understanding of the word.

 

Business is run one of two ways... In good faith, and treating every one of your customers in the same way in which you would want to be treated; And then of course doing everything legally possible to retain as much of the customer's money regardless of whether they are satisfied with the goods and services provided.

 

This is simply a matter of what is fair vs: what is legal. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it fair.

 

BTW... who said anything about warranty? Or did you just decide obfuscation was more effective than addressing the actual issue of fairness here?

 

In closing... Pints of millk are 1 dollar each, or 15 for 10 dollars. You buy 15 and drink the first 5. You find the remaining 10 pints to be spoiled before their expiration date. You return these ten pints (of which you paid $6.66 for), but you are informed you will only receive $5 dollars because you are returning some of the 15 you bought, and because of this, those first three you bought are now retroactively raised in priced to $5 instead of the $3.33 you originally paid for them. You think this is ok. I think you're nuts.

 

And one more thing... since you decided to bring up the issue of warranty. You take your car in to the dealer within a month of the expiration of the warranty because your transmission is acting up (grinding noises and improper shifting). They call to inform you they found no trouble. You pick up your car, but you neglect to verify your problem report is documented in writing. 45 days later the transmission fails. You have it towed back to the dealer and are told you need a new transmission at a cost of $2500 bucks. You just pay it, right? After all, its fair... your car is out of warranty.

 

Yeah right.

[ApexGrind]

Yeah, I guess I don't have any idea how business works... yet I have run my own, quite successfully, for almost a decade, with over 20,000 satisfied customers, and no complaints. Can you say the same? I didn't think so.

 

He bought $900 worth of lessons, used one third of them, and desired a refund for the balance, but received only half of that. Sure the "contract" may have indicated some vagaries about discounts not being honored with respect to refunds, but I am certain it didn't offer clear language that, if he cancelled early, the price for his used lessons would go up dramatically. You consider this fair. I maintain you have no understanding of the word.

 

I can see both sides.

 

Business is run one of two ways... In good faith, and treating every one of your customers in the same way in which you would want to be treated; And then of course doing everything legally possible to retain as much of the customer's money regardless of whether they are satisfied with the goods and services provided.

 

This is simply a matter of what is fair vs: what is legal. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it fair.

 

Well, there is *some* responsibility for the customer to understand what they are buying. The question here is if it was misrepresented. If there is a contract (I would expect one for a fairly high ticket service like $900) then the customer has some responsibility to read it?

 

BTW... who said anything about warranty? Or did you just decide obfuscation was more effective than addressing the actual issue of fairness here?

 

In closing... Pints of millk are 1 dollar each, or 15 for 10 dollars. You buy 15 and drink the first 5. You find the remaining 10 pints to be spoiled before their expiration date. You return these ten pints (of which you paid $6.66 for), but you are informed you will only receive $5 dollars because you are returning some of the 15 you bought, and because of this, those first three you bought are now retroactively raised in priced to $5 instead of the $3.33 you originally paid for them. You think this is ok. I think you're nuts.

 

Well... this is sort of an obfuscation as well right? "spoiled" milk? How about if the customer just brings back the 10 pints and says he just decided after drinking 5 that he really didn't want any more? The problem is with the price break for quantity. If the lesson plan was flawed or did not meet expectations then he should have asked for all his money back maybe. Otherwise you don't have a discount for quantity. You've just reduced the price for any lesson package. Why would anyone pay the higher per lesson price?

[Solutions Etcetera]

Well... I guess it depends on whether Golftec just assumes every dissatisfied customer is not dissatisfied at all but just out to screw them on the cost of lessons. A bit paranoid don't you think. I wonder if they so lack the confidence in the quality of their products and services that they feel this is necessary... or they are all just lawyered up.

 

In any event... it demonstrates little concern for the honest customer who is unhappy with the lessons.

 

But I think this poor old dead horse has been beaten enough. For those of you who've enjoyed your Golftec experience, I am happy for you. I don't agree with the way they run their business (refunds, expiration dates) so it is not for me, and I will clearly point that out to a friend or colleague should they ask.

 

That's all.

[stevestrike]

Let's take a look at this contract that, "may have indicated some vagaries about discounts not being honored with respect to refunds, but I am certain it didn't offer clear language that" (your words here)

 

Right near the top here: http://www.golftec.com/learningcenters/policies.html, and on the page he SIGNED when he purchased the lessons

Refunds on lesson packs and practice memberships are granted within 30 days from the date of purchase. Refunds are prorated based upon: (i) lessons taken or number of days elapsed since the date of purchase (whichever is applicable); and (ii) less quantity or package discounts given at time of purchase which shall no longer apply. There are no refunds given after 30 days from the date of purchase.

 

That doesn't seem vague or unclear to me. :tongue:

 

Yeah, I guess I don't have any idea how business works... yet I have run my own, quite successfully, for almost a decade, with over 20,000 satisfied customers, and no complaints. Can you say the same? I didn't think so.

Not so fast there, chief. I do, and my contracts state the exact same thing we are talking about! From my contracts:

 

Termination. If S&A commenced the performance of the Services prior to the execution of this Agreement, this Agreement shall nonetheless cover the performance of such services. Either party may terminate the Agreement upon 30-day written notice to the other party. In the event of termination by Client, Client will be responsible for fees and expenses incurred though the date termination notice is received at non-discounted rate of $150 per hour. In the event of termination by S&A, Client will be responsible only for fees and expenses incurred though the date termination notice is received.

 

This is common contract language when receiving discounted rates for services. If they cancel early, they don't get the discount. This is a simple concept, and common practice.

 

This is simply a matter of what is fair vs: what is legal. Just because it is legal, doesn't make it fair.

It's not fair? You sound like my 7 year old son! When you sign a contract for $1000 worth of services, you had better expect the legal protection of a contract, and not for things to be "fair". Business isn't done on a simple handshake anymore. The contract is what PROTECTS him, and guarantees him the refund. Without it, he would be at the mercy of unscrupulous business practices.

[Solutions Etcetera]

You sound like my 7 year old son!

Yeah... God forbid any of us maintain that innocence and expectation for fairness in this day and age.

 

The "policy" you site uses the term "prorated" as in pro rata. Look it up. It refers to proportional allocation and distribution. His refund distribution for unused lessons was not prorated. Yes it also mentions discounts would no longer be applicable, and this is an ambiguity that does not exist in your contract. You specifically state the liability of $150/hr for work already done in the event of cancellation... nor do you specify proration as the method used for distribution of refunded amounts for work not done.

 

If Golftec's policy was as clear as your contract, I might not have a problem with it. You spell it out in dollars and sense, and don't stick a 30 day time limit on a clients decision to discontinue.

 

And before we completely dismiss what's legal vs: what's fair (and note I made no reference to their policy as being illegal), let's talk about the eleven weeks it took him to receive his refund. Regardless of your considerations, I feel this customer was treated poorly... and if that is Golftec's policy sobeit. They are within their legal rights to treat customers as poorly as their contract allows. For me, the fact that they "choose" to do so is where the problem comes in.

[charleychen]

I think the negative experience is probably isolated to one or two individuals and it is not representative of GolfTec as a whole. I brought a 10 lesson pack a while back and did not know that there is a 10 month expiration date on it. I had 3 lessons left and GolfTec happily honored those lessons. They didn't try to toss the book at me. So, I am satisfied with how they handled my situation.

 

As for the quality of the instructors, I think they are as good as any instructors that I've used before. I've attended a few golf schools and have taken lesson at several different clubs. My current instructor was very good at explaining why the drills work and what are the next steps. Instructions are such a personal thing, you need to find an instructor that fits your learning style. I had to change my instructor once, because I just couldn't do any of the drills he was having me do.

 

The primary issue I have with GolfTec is the lessons are given indoors. I find it difficult to take the swing that I learned to the driving range and properly self-assess my progress because I lacked a very big visual feedback during the lessons, which is ball flight.

[stevestrike]

The primary issue I have with GolfTec is the lessons are given indoors. I find it difficult to take the swing that I learned to the driving range and properly self-assess my progress because I lacked a very big visual feedback during the lessons, which is ball flight.

You can get outdoor lessons too, just ask! It's even on their website:

Outdoor Lessons

There will also come a time during your lesson program that your GolfTEC Certified Personal Coach will recommend an outdoor short-game or playing lesson. Taking any swing changes to the course is always the most difficult step. To ensure you are making the proper improvement, your instructor will carry along a video camera to document your swing progression and other areas of your game that may need attention. You will also receive help to develop both the proper mental frame of mind as well as course management techniques. After the round of golf you and your GolfTEC Certified Personal Coach will review the captured video and lay out a game plan for the remainder of the day for you to tackle the issues discovered while playing.

 

Solutions Etcetera, I'm going to drop this with you because it's clear that you are not going to be swayed by me, and me by you. The term "prorated" refers to the time (30-days) and number of lessons taken--not the refund amount. You are just being obtuse, purposefully misreading things, or you don't have any legal contractual knowledge, in which case you should stop now. It may not be "fair" to you, but it's just how business is done. Enough already.

[The Boom Bapp]

Would love to take lessons at Golf Tec so I could take full advantage of their monitoring technology which is top notch comparatively but I have life responsibilities and spending that kind of cash on Golf Lessons would put me in debt in seconds.

 

Drop the ridiculous prices and make it affordable for all. To "Uppity" and "Elitist" for my blood at the moment!

[TheCapedAvenger]

You sound like my 7 year old son!

Yeah... God forbid any of us maintain that innocence and expectation for fairness in this day and age.

 

The "policy" you site uses the term "prorated" as in pro rata. Look it up. It refers to proportional allocation and distribution. His refund distribution for unused lessons was not prorated. Yes it also mentions discounts would no longer be applicable, and this is an ambiguity that does not exist in your contract. You specifically state the liability of $150/hr for work already done in the event of cancellation... nor do you specify proration as the method used for distribution of refunded amounts for work not done.

*snip*

 

 

I'm reminded of a famous quote from a past president:

 

"It depends on what your definition of the word "is" is"

[ApexGrind]

Would love to take lessons at Golf Tec so I could take full advantage of their monitoring technology which is top notch comparatively but I have life responsibilities and spending that kind of cash on Golf Lessons would put me in debt in seconds.

 

Drop the ridiculous prices and make it affordable for all. To "Uppity" and "Elitist" for my blood at the moment!

 

I only charge 1/4 of what Golftec does. But I just tape a stick across your shoulders and use a hand held Sony camcorder. ...and I have no training credentials whatsoever. :lol:

[Solutions Etcetera]

it's clear that you are not going to be swayed by me, and me by you.

That is right, we disagree. But you seem to find it necessary to belittle one's level of maturity or legal knowledge in the course of discussion, even though that is not what this is about. No one has challenged either the legality of the contract nor that many folks run their business this way.

 

In fact what was being discussed were the facts that they are expensive and seem to care little about customers that may not see things their way. Just taking 11 weeks to deliver a refund (regardless of the amount) is inexcusably poor customer service. To me, paying top dollar for anything usually entitles you to a HIGHER level of customer service.

 

But then again, maybe it says it'll take them 3 months to refund your money in the contract in which case, according to you, makes it a normal and acceptable business practice.

 

You also seem to be fond of the last word, as you are simply repeating "the contract is legal, the contract is legal!", so I'll leave that for you at this point, and try to avoid another "discussion" of this sort with you in the future. It is clear your world is very black and white.

[southtown817]

My complimentary lesson was from a guy who only plays twice a year, although he knew how to work the equipment. It was well after my lesson that I learned of his lack of playing time. Kinda killed any thought of returning for more lessons especially after I lost my old swing and can't remember the new swing. The wind left my sail, I mean, how can you have confidence in a guy who doesn't play? He did not touch my putting and it is still okay. In fact that is what I enjoy is the short game.

I came in 2 plane or more came out with no game. I lost what little confidence I had.

I just broke a hundred this year after playing since the 70's with a set of new MX-25's and any hopes I had of seeing a sub 100 have vanished.

 

I was playing last week and a golf marshall was in the foursome. He advised that I not play, because I was holding them up. A real jerk and a person I could truly say that I was not glad to meet. Fortunately he left without saying goodbye, thus spoiling my salutation of him being one person I would not care to see again. I do remember seeing him as a marshall and an unfriendly marshall at that. No reference intended to the marshalls here on golfwrx. I should probably return to my old game philosophy, play once a year whether I want to or not. You won't get any worse and you won't get any better and you won't spend much money either. I have tons of clubs that I could not work, but sure worked me.

[Lake]

Wow...this thread is fun!

 

They recruit heavily from Professional Golf Management schools and hire most of their guys/gals right out of graduation. So, a lot of these instructors are 21-23 and green as a piece of lettuce. New hires do attend an extensive training session in Denver, CO. However, most of these guys couldn't get a cup of coffee for Manzella. The amount of money they charge for golf lessons makes me laugh...I wouldn't dig a penny out of my car cupholder for a GolfTec lesson and they are charging as much as some of the top instructors in the nation.

 

I guess my take on all this is: If you could go out to eat in Atlanta for a steak one night....would you go to Applebees or Bones. Cause Applebees is just taking that piece of meat out of a freezer and following the directions from corporate on how to cook it...while Bones will grill only the finest cut at your exact specification.

 

If your golf game is important to you as it is to me than I would suggest taking some time to find the best instructor in your area. If there is a GolfTec near you, than you are in a nice size metropolitan area where I'm sure there is a teacher at a course or driving range that is recognized by his or her peers as one of the best. I believe last months Golf Digest provided a list of instructors in each state that fits that bill. As a side note, I think Brian was ranked #3 in Kentucky!!

 

If you do choose to go to GolfTec I would interview your potential instructor.

[TM golf guy]

I'll add a reply that is a little more on topic.

 

I have taken 3 lessons so far since I started working at Golfsmith. I am a college kid and before starting was looking at playing for University of Houston. I was playing very solid golf before starting my lessons, and was very optimistic about my chances of making the team.

 

Lesson 1: Totally change swing. I was hitting knee high shanks with wedges after this one.

 

Lesson 2: Hit first "slice" in over a year off the driver, I'm talking 90-100 yards right.

 

Lesson 3: Finally seeing some positive results, but still not hitting it as straight as I was.

 

I will have to keep going to get my swing back, and will not be attempting to play for U of H until next year. I had a self taught swing, and now it's not the same. Not a bad thing, but you better be devoted to changing your swing if you go there.

[Diesel]

There's nothing wrong with taking a single lesson to determine if you like the instructor. With a golf school type program, you don't get that option. Instead it's all or nothing.

Good point.

 

Think I will stick with what is local... one lesson at a time. If that doesn't work, move on to the next. I am not looking to reinvent everything that I do, just to recognize some problems that I know I have, and the best method to correct them.

 

Agreed! I can go to my local PGA pro (who happens to work at Golf Galaxy), and get a 30 minute lesson covering exactly what I want to work on. If I call him and say, "Hey, Leigh, I'm struggling with my driver but I'm puring my irons, can you give me some drills?" he's not going to tell me to bring in my 7-iron and work on my address and grip for half an hour.

 

This makes me MAD that people out there will take advantage of someone trying to improve.

 

 

LOL, you see Leigh Taylor at GG...?

 

i've been down there a few times myself... i do like the video feedback for sure...

[ApexGrind]

I'll add a reply that is a little more on topic.

 

I have taken 3 lessons so far since I started working at Golfsmith. I am a college kid and before starting was looking at playing for University of Houston. I was playing very solid golf before starting my lessons, and was very optimistic about my chances of making the team.

 

Lesson 1: Totally change swing. I was hitting knee high shanks with wedges after this one.

 

Lesson 2: Hit first "slice" in over a year off the driver, I'm talking 90-100 yards right.

 

Lesson 3: Finally seeing some positive results, but still not hitting it as straight as I was.

 

I will have to keep going to get my swing back, and will not be attempting to play for U of H until next year. I had a self taught swing, and now it's not the same. Not a bad thing, but you better be devoted to changing your swing if you go there.

 

Ummm, it's entirely possible that you had a fine swing but I'd say that there is a very good chance that a self taught swing might very well have to be deconstructed and rebuilt from the ground up. Learning an entirely different swing will often take your game (whatever you had) close to bottom to begin with. It's also likely that it will be more difficult to learn a conventional grip/swing having first ingrained something else. Often people will learn to swing entirely by themselves and achieve some level of success. Not hard to become an average golfer with almost any grip or swing. Often those swings will be limited/capped at some point where a conventional grip/swing wouldn't be. If you totally changed your swing and are seeing positive results only 3 lessons later I would not be discouraged with that. Like I said, we have no idea what your original swing was like so that doesn't mean much.

[rjwh20s]

I'm in, about 600.00 and after the first 4 lessoons, I was ready to trash them. (never been so frustrated in my life)Then I felt that it really is worth the $$$. When you can see just what you are doing wrong, it is worth twice as much. We all look at tour player's swing,s over and over in slow motion all weekend and think that is what we look like..... oh how wrong we (I) was. I am now hitting the ball longer and straighter (and when I hit a bad shot, I know just what I did wrong. As,males, you need to realize that we are visual and when you can see it over and over, you too will see just what I am talking about.

 

 

Sorry about the typing, I kinka loaded. 2:00 am pacific

[TM golf guy]

I'll add a reply that is a little more on topic.

 

I have taken 3 lessons so far since I started working at Golfsmith. I am a college kid and before starting was looking at playing for University of Houston. I was playing very solid golf before starting my lessons, and was very optimistic about my chances of making the team.

 

Lesson 1: Totally change swing. I was hitting knee high shanks with wedges after this one.

 

Lesson 2: Hit first "slice" in over a year off the driver, I'm talking 90-100 yards right.

 

Lesson 3: Finally seeing some positive results, but still not hitting it as straight as I was.

 

I will have to keep going to get my swing back, and will not be attempting to play for U of H until next year. I had a self taught swing, and now it's not the same. Not a bad thing, but you better be devoted to changing your swing if you go there.

 

Ummm, it's entirely possible that you had a fine swing but I'd say that there is a very good chance that a self taught swing might very well have to be deconstructed and rebuilt from the ground up. Learning an entirely different swing will often take your game (whatever you had) close to bottom to begin with. It's also likely that it will be more difficult to learn a conventional grip/swing having first ingrained something else. Often people will learn to swing entirely by themselves and achieve some level of success. Not hard to become an average golfer with almost any grip or swing. Often those swings will be limited/capped at some point where a conventional grip/swing wouldn't be. If you totally changed your swing and are seeing positive results only 3 lessons later I would not be discouraged with that. Like I said, we have no idea what your original swing was like so that doesn't mean much.

 

Self taught may not have been the best way to describe it. Before going to GolfTec I was playing off +2.4, so I don't know if I qualify as an "average golfer." I went to GolfTec to attempt to get better, and my post was not made to express being discouraged, simply to show the process. I never expected a swing change to be an overnight thing.

[The Boom Bapp]

There's nothing wrong with taking a single lesson to determine if you like the instructor. With a golf school type program, you don't get that option. Instead it's all or nothing.

Good point.

 

Think I will stick with what is local... one lesson at a time. If that doesn't work, move on to the next. I am not looking to reinvent everything that I do, just to recognize some problems that I know I have, and the best method to correct them.

 

Agreed! I can go to my local PGA pro (who happens to work at Golf Galaxy), and get a 30 minute lesson covering exactly what I want to work on. If I call him and say, "Hey, Leigh, I'm struggling with my driver but I'm puring my irons, can you give me some drills?" he's not going to tell me to bring in my 7-iron and work on my address and grip for half an hour.

 

This makes me MAD that people out there will take advantage of someone trying to improve.

 

 

LOL, you see Leigh Taylor at GG...?

 

i've been down there a few times myself... i do like the video feedback for sure...

 

 

Leigh Taylor is the man! Now that is an intelligent no nonsense instructor that I have recommended to many.

[tpariff]

lefty, thanks for the heads up. This place sounds purposely confusing at best, and downright shady and unethical at worst.

 

I realize they are in business to make money; however, they're associated with the game of golf. Incorporating downright dishonest business practices into your business plan seems pretty contrary to the Gentleman's Game. I wonder why these PGA professionals would even be involved in a bait-and-switch operation like this.

 

Caveat Emptor, gentlemen, and sorry you had to take a bullet for us, lefty. If I ever had to sign a contract like that for some golf lessons, you can be sure I'll walk out the door and let everyone know what a ripoff it is.

 

tpariff, forgive me if this is offensive...but do you work for Golftec?

 

 

None taken, but "no" I don't work for GolfTec. I'm in the commercial real estate finance field. My opinion and thoughts are based solely on my experience with my local GolfTec shop, and more specifically my instructor. Maybe I've been fortunate. But like any retail experience, if someone has a bad one, they'll tell at least a half dozen people. With a good experience, many people don't tell anyone.

 

It is what it is with GolfTec or anything else in life. One of my good friends has bought 4 or 5 vehicles from the same BMW dealership in Tampa. I visited them a few years ago on his advice and recommendation, and I left within 30 minutes after the bad experience I had. It didn't work for me, but it works for my friend. I ended up getting the car we wanted at another dealership where I felt I was treated fairly.

 

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[jacksonlui]

I just wanted to say that I've had nothing but a good experience with Golftec. It really depends on the people that run the place and your instructor. I am going to the one in La Jolla, California and the people there are qualified and friendly.

 

The feedback you get from the harness helps identify your flaws rather quickly so it's cheaper in the long run. It takes the guessing game out so you can work on your flaws quickly. Golftec can make a so so instructor into a better one because it helps find the flaw but it's still up to the instructor to determine how to fix it in the proper sequence. I'd recommend it to anyone but the key is still to find a good instructor that teaches at a golftec. golftec is just a tool, it still needs to be used properly.

 

my 2 cents

Jackson

[ApexGrind]

Just went for my evaluation yesterday. What I've assumed to be a really crappy swing turned out not to be so bad... ;). The tech analysis is exactly what I wanted and I'm able to work really well with my instructor. You can tell he has a canned/fixed/rehearsed plan to follow but I just let him guide it and we cut some things out, deviated to others, and spent more time on some. Suprisingly (I'm old and fat) it turns out I've got too much of turn. Over swinging and going past parallel has always been a problem but I just figured it was because I was collapsing at the top. More suprising is what feels like a 1/4 back swing is actually a full one...

"who's swing would you like to see?"

"Freddy"

"See, he doesn't even get to parallel"

"you got John Daly in there?"

"sure."

"Bingo!"

"...but that's not really what we want your swing to look like" :)

 

I bought the starter promo. 1hr eval, 1/2hr swing lesson, 1/2hr putting lesson.

So we used the 1hr evaluation to work on legs, hip turn, closed/squared the setup a bit, etc. mostly lower body (except for cutting down my shoulder turn a bit too). I was on plane/in the slot. I think I'll use the next hour for upper body, fix my wrists at the top a bit (not sure my really strong grip is fixable in my lifetime) and just a couple of minutes to have him look at and record my putting (do they record putting?). I'm pretty happy with my putting.

 

So I really like/wanted the tech aspect, I like the instructor and we seem to work well together. Maybe I just got lucky or their program suits me well.