Besides the obvious, did I really mess up here?

[Mr. Bean]

> @DavePelz4 said:

>

> Many lessons learned in terms of insuring the ball I'm about to play truly is the ball used on the previous shot and hopefully if someone encounters a comparable situation, they'll learn from my many mistakes. Thanks to all for the insights and time invested in analyzing/responding.

>

 

A unique marking is recommended, no need to remember which brand you play.

[Newby]

Bolting horses and stable doors come to mind

[rogolf]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > > Here's my take on what the original poster has presented:

> > > > > > > > > 1 - tee shot

> > > > > > > > > 2 - 5w shot into penalty area

> > > > > > > > > 3- drop a ball out of penalty area (no issue with substituting the TM for your original ball)

> > > > > > > > > 4 - 9i shot into bunker

> > > > > > > > > 5 - 6 - total of 2 ps for lifting ball in bunker (Rule 9.4) and not replacing it correctly

> > > > > > > > > 7 - pitch on

> > > > > > > > > 8-9 - two putts

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This was my view also, but it is worth noting that it relies on an assumption that was not stated in the original post - that the ball found in the bunker was the ball played from the relief area next to the penalty area. The player needed to have KVC that was the case.

> > > > > > > > In a later post, Dave suggests there was only 90 per cent certainty that was the case, so the ruling needs to change. That means the ball was not identified as his own (ie the ball played from near the penalty area) which means it was a stray ball according to the rules. As the location of the original was not known at the time, S&D must be assigned (1SP) plus a wrong substitution/wrong place (2SP) and it is a serious breach so must be corrected. As that didn't happen it would be DQ in stroke play or just DQ for the hole in Stableford play.

> > > > > > > > IMO, E-5 does not have relevance, even if posted. We have official guidance on what to do when a player has proceeded incorrectly and a correct rule must be applied - 6C(9), pp426-7 - an in this case the correct rule is 18.1 (lost ball). Could be an interesting quick question to the USGA phone line to ask whether E-5 can be used in such a situation, but I don't think we can consider applying it without RB authority (because none currently exists).

> > > > > > > The original poster said (later) that there was no other place for the ball to be but in the water; I took that to mean KVC that his second shot went into the water. When he took the red-striped ball from the water and dropped it under Rule 17, it became his ball in play (even if it had been a "stray" ball, it's the one he dropped under Rule 17). He then said he hit the dropped ball straight into the bunker which is where he noticed that he had changed balls (as permitted by Rule 17). The only doubt that I have is where did he drop after he "treated it like a lost ball"?

> > > > > > > I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm not raising KVC for the water shot but the ball in the bunker. Dave's later post attached the 90 per cent certainty to the ball in the bunker being the ball hit with the 9i from beside the PA. That is the basis for me updating my original ruling (which precisely matched yours).

> > > > > I don't think KVC enters into identifying the ball found as the ball you played, ie, I don't see mention of KVC in Rule 7. He did indicate that he removed a ball with a red stripe from the water and played that ball straight into the bunker, finding the ball with a red stripe in the bunker, just not the brand that he had played for his second shot (which is now irrelevant).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Here's what he said about the action he took in the bunker: "While it was most likely the ball played with the 9i, I still wasn't even 90% sure and my playing partners couldn't say with certainty that was where the ball ended up." For me then, the ruling must be amended. **He has failed to identify his ball in play** (the ball played with the 9i from near the PA) and has therefore lifted a stray ball and put it in play. **He has therefore taken S&D**, subbed a ball and played from a wrong place and it is a serious breach. I was using the term KVC loosely (and inappropriately), but that does not change the (updated) facts - the player has simply subbed a ball without identifying the original ball. I also agree that the language in that updated post is not consistent with the earlier language - so I updated my ruling to be consistent with the updated information.

> > >

> > > Where did he take S&D ?

> > >

> > > He dropped out of the PA. The dropped ball, now the ball in play, had a red stripe on it.

> > >

> > > They all saw it go towards the bunker. Presumably, nobody found a(nother) ball with a red stripe anywhere near there in or out of the bunker. He found a red stripe ball in the bunker. Is that NOT enough for him to identify it as his ? Or does he need to know brand, model, number, side stamp, more markings ? What is enough ?

> > >

> > > Seems to me, unless the above is NOT enough to identify the ball as his, the only thing he did wrong was pick up and drop the ball in the bunker.

> > >

> > > And if that's NOT enough to identify the ball he THEN has a lost ball and THEN has to take S&D and go back near the PA where he played that shot from.

> > >

> > > Not so ?

> >

> > That can only be answered by DavePelz4. Was it the ball you played from next to the PA? If yes, it's 2SP for lifting ball in play and not replacing. If no, it is 3SP and serious breach. My post was demonstrates the implications of the no answer. His first post implied same ball, a later post implied may well not have been. I am not advocating here, I am identifying how the rules treat either answer.

> >

> > My reference to S&D is how the RBs guide us (see p427 of the Official Guide, and comparable wording in 19.2/5) if a player lifts, drops and plays a ball that is not his and does so without knowing where the original ball is.

>

> As mentioned in the title of the thread, I knew there was a chance I really messed up which appears to be the case. For clarification, while it was logical I fished the wrong ball out of the water and then used that ball to hit the shot into the bunker, I just wasn't sure enough to play it as such. Had something miraculous happened like holing the bunker shot, I wouldn't have felt right.

>

> Many lessons learned in terms of** insuring the ball I'm about to play truly is the ball used on the previous shot a**nd hopefully if someone encounters a comparable situation, they'll learn from my many mistakes. Thanks to all for the insights and time invested in analyzing/responding.

>

As discussed, you may substitute another ball any time you are taking relief, so playing the ball removed from the water was not a breach of the Rules. Just don't assume that the ball fished out of the water was the one that you hit into the water.