SEX Change? Should men be allowed to play in Womens

[BEND OF THE RIVER GC]

Very simple yet confusing. If Michelle Wie can play in Men's events than a woman, who WA

[Placebo]

Maybe its time to start a new league for........ humans? I mean you could argue this until the cows come home and still not get anywhere, and eventually there will be enough to form their own league.

 

The world is getting crazier by the minute! :good:

[DaveyH]

the law of a country overrules ethics.

[Pepperturbo]

I think it's a travesty for all sports in general... That said, I find it very lopsided that the LPGA will NOT (as I last understood) allow a man that's had a sex change to play on the LPGA.

[oukk]

Simply NO.

if they allow, then male scratch golfer can get a surgery done and play in LPGA.

Which means.... longer off the tee, better short games etc...........

[Viking Golfer]

Simply NO.

if they allow, then male scratch golfer can get a surgery done and play in LPGA.

Which means.... longer off the tee, better short games etc...........

 

But that would raise the overall level of play on the LPGA, wouldn't it ?

 

This would put pressure on the "real" ladies, so they would have to play even better and practice even more on their short game.

The short game in my view is an area, where women should have the exact same condisiotns for being great as men - in fact a "womens touch" should give them an advantage here :rolleyes:

[hbear]

Simply NO.

if they allow, then male scratch golfer can get a surgery done and play in LPGA.

Which means.... longer off the tee, better short games etc...........

 

Yeah because we are all dying to do just that......

 

A sex change to have a better chance to play Tour Level Golf??? Get a grip now.

People don't have sex changes to do that...they have them because they don't "feel" like they were born the "right" gender for them.

If you think there will be a stampede of male golfers getting sex changes to play on the LPGA....

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

 

Regardless I don't think the LPGA golfers are given the respect they deserve in regards to their game....

I will say that the upper half of the women on tour will mop the floor with a "Scratch male golfer" day in day out.

 

The girls can play. When they were here in Edmonton for the Women's Canadian open they played the course from around 6500 yards (par 71) in rainy/cold conditions and -16 won (Ochoa) where even got you a tie for 43rd and $9000 in a $2.25 million purse.

 

Not the most difficult course....but has it's fair share of challange. I'd doubt many "scratch" golfers would shoot even or better over 4 rounds in those conditions....never mind the tournament pressure.

[oukk]

I didn't mean to offend the skills of LPGA players or choices people make changing their sexes.

As a fan of LPGA,

I want girls who were born as girls to win.

I think girls who were male before would bring complication to the tournaments since those type of girls have different physical characteristics.

 

just my thought..

(I should've put in better words in the previous reply)

[18th Legion]

Let's see. . . with the new [b]USGA Equipment Adjustability Rules[/b], it should be o.k. as long as the "change does not occur during a stipulated round."

[Olan1987]

I think they should be. Everybody wants equal rights so why not?

[DaveyH]

[quote name='oukk' post='778989' date='Nov 4 2007, 10:47 PM']Simply NO.
if they allow, then male scratch golfer can get a surgery done and play in LPGA.
Which means.... longer off the tee, better short games etc...........[/quote]
May i ask how does being male make your short game better?

[JDorfler]

[quote name='DaveyH' post='824305' date='Dec 15 2007, 01:09 AM'][quote name='oukk' post='778989' date='Nov 4 2007, 10:47 PM']Simply NO.
if they allow, then male scratch golfer can get a surgery done and play in LPGA.
Which means.... longer off the tee, better short games etc...........[/quote]
May i ask how does being male make your short game better?
[/quote]

Actually, right now, it's been proven the PGA guys have a better short game than the LPGA ladies. There is a simple explanation for this. The ladies (statistically speaking) spend more time on the driving range and less time on the practice green than their PGA counter parts. I believe this was part of an article in Golf Digest a few months ago.

[DaveyH]

that is not solely because the pga tour players are male its because they realise what they must do in order to beat the rest of the field.

[JDorfler]

[quote name='DaveyH' post='826336' date='Dec 16 2007, 11:09 PM']that is not solely because the pga tour players are male its because they realise what they must do in order to beat the rest of the field.[/quote]
Exactly.

[DaveyH]

[quote name='JDorfler' post='826624' date='Dec 16 2007, 02:53 PM'][quote name='DaveyH' post='826336' date='Dec 16 2007, 11:09 PM']that is not solely because the pga tour players are male its because they realise what they must do in order to beat the rest of the field.[/quote]
Exactly.
[/quote]
But surely thats why the best in the world are the best in the world they recognise the key parts of the game to win!

[abefroeman]

[quote name='christhebigsmokemoss' post='775640' date='Nov 1 2007, 05:24 PM']The long drive finals were held last week, and the USGA ruled in favour for a competitor to compete after a sex change in the ladies division. I also know of the same ruling for the ladies European Tour.

I would like to know what everyone thinks of this, not just for golf but all sports.

This is not a sexist topic, but a valid topic for open discussion, so please do not comment unless you have something worthwhile to say.[/quote]

ROFL, how can this even be a discussion? If you have a sex change, you are still a man. The sex change did not change any of your DNA. There is more to being male or female than your genitalia (sp?)

A sex change is like a really bad tatoo. Its very perminant and kinda crazy but it doesn't change who you are.

[abefroeman]

Alright, alright. I have the answer for all of you law students. The rules of all sports need to say that if a competitor wants to compete in the women's league, he or she need not be classified legally as a woman, but needs 2 x-chromisomes.

Then instead of PGA and LPGA, we have the PGA where men, women, transexuals, etc. can compete if they are good enough. And we have the LPGA, where the rules state that a player must have two x-chromisomes to compete. It is the 2 x-chromisomes that make women phisically inferior to men, not thier legal definition.

As a side note, if Augusta can keep women out of Augusta, and the boy scouts can keep women and homosexuals out of the boy scouts, than the USGA can figure out a way to keep its sports fair.

[steelmonkfruit]

a man that cuts off his ding dong and silicon in his chest is not a biological woman.

sorry for raining on your parade guys

[loulou]

Let me think about it...uh, no. If not solely for the fact that I don't want to be watching the LPGA one day and go "hey she's hot" and then find out that she was a dude, then for the fact that it would be completely unfair for the rest of the women out there.

[Kumabjorn]

The LPGA has in its by-laws that a "competitor born a woman is eligible" whereas the LET (Ladies European Tour) doesn't and there is one player, born a male in Denmark that became a woman in Australia, is competing but she hasn't really done any remarkable results, some occasional top ten and her driving is on par with the rest of the players.

[Mianne]

Hi, it's Mianne Bagger here ....I thought you might allow me to put in my two cents worth? The crap that you guys go on about in these forums is unbelievable and downright hurtful!!!

 

You know, I have read most of the posts and things you guys have written, and there is only one or two where someone has come up with some vaguely reasonable comments or questions. It's sad to see that people keep debating this topic, spouting some sort of facts and figures and pieces of information they feel to be true, while none of you actually have a clue of what you are talking about!!!

 

I've had some information up on my website for some years which I took off recently for various reasons. The pages are still available though so if any of you might be inclined to educate yourselves just a little, here is the link: www.miannegolf.com/somefacts.htm

 

All of the comments and questions you post are all very typical and is why there are so many problems when it comes to gender diversity ....quite frankly, nobody actually knows what the hell they're talking about! Not even the likes of the IOC, and certainly not the professional golf tours!!! The opinions that are expressed in this forum (as with many other forums) seem to be 'knee jerk' reactions based on emotion and ignorance ....none of which is your fault. The media has a lot to answer for in society's opinions today and they need educating as much as everyone else.

 

I've always welcomed intelligent debate on the topic, so I'll pop in from time to time to see if anyone has anything to say. If you feel so inclined, you can always write to me at the email address on my website.

[BParis]

Hi, it's Mianne Bagger here ....I thought you might allow me to put in my two cents worth? The crap that you guys go on about in these forums is unbelievable and downright hurtful!!!

 

You know, I have read most of the posts and things you guys have written, and there is only one or two where someone has come up with some vaguely reasonable comments or questions. It's sad to see that people keep debating this topic, spouting some sort of facts and figures and pieces of information they feel to be true, while none of you actually have a clue of what you are talking about!!!

 

I've had some information up on my website for some years which I took off recently for various reasons. The pages are still available though so if any of you might be inclined to educate yourselves just a little, here is the link: www.miannegolf.com/somefacts.htm

 

All of the comments and questions you post are all very typical and is why there are so many problems when it comes to gender diversity ....quite frankly, nobody actually knows what the hell they're talking about! Not even the likes of the IOC, and certainly not the professional golf tours!!! The opinions that are expressed in this forum (as with many other forums) seem to be 'knee jerk' reactions based on emotion and ignorance ....none of which is your fault. The media has a lot to answer for in society's opinions today and they need educating as much as everyone else.

 

I've always welcomed intelligent debate on the topic, so I'll pop in from time to time to see if anyone has anything to say. If you feel so inclined, you can always write to me at the email address on my website.

 

Mianne, if that was your "two cents worth" it sure wasn't worth much. All you did was cry that people are uninformed and ignorant; there was nothing of substance in your reply. Don't tell us to go read your website, if you have a compelling argument/position, which you obviously should, then articulate it here for us to read and reply.

 

Sorry, but your post was very weak...

[jphilbeck]

I am a strong libertarian but I still think NO, absolutly not. It is not fair to the women who were born women (potential muscle mass reasons and body structure reasons for starters). If you want sports to be fair then there should be a rule against it. They should change the ruling to sex at birth to clear this up. Also since I am big into freedom it should be up to the individual organization to decide not the gvt or some equal rights laws. Telling the LPGA that they have to LET a man who has female parts play is fascism! Playing in the LPGA or LD events are voulntary acts. Since it is voulntary then there should be NO law regarding this issue plus it is not a neccesity to life like other equal rights issues. If you don't like it then start your own tour or LD event and make your own rules. You could even start a tour or event that is only for people that have had sex changes!

 

The whole idea of equal rights regarding this issue is contrary to what a free society is all about!

[Awsi Dooger]

Mianne, if that was your "two cents worth" it sure wasn't worth much. All you did was cry that people are uninformed and ignorant; there was nothing of substance in your reply. Don't tell us to go read your website, if you have a compelling argument/position, which you obviously should, then articulate it here for us to read and reply.

 

Sorry, but your post was very weak...

 

Exactly. While reading it I literally cringed and felt sorry for her. Her case would have been stronger if she posted nothing. I was hoping it was someone posing as her on a message board, but apparently not.

 

It was empty labeling dotted with exclamation marks, which was even more pathetic. If the point is valid and made, the exclamation marks are unnecessary.

 

Regardless, I don't have any problem with allowing the sex change competitors to participate. I'm old enough to remember Renee Richards in the '70s, and the fearful predictions that there would be many high profile examples, and dominant in certain women's sports. Meanwhile, it's basically been zilch, a non-issue. From what I can tell, the recent winner of the REMAX Long Drive Competition was somewhat of a fluke, benefitting from a very sub par performance by the second place finisher, in severe wind conditions.

[T-Bird]

:friends: I know this is kind of weird but what if John Daly had a sex change and Laura Davies did as well? They could change places on each tour and both would hit it the same. Not saying it's right or wrong but rather what if.

[Mianne]

Valid points and fair enough I guess.

 

The reality is that this issue can't be discussed with any credibility without the full understanding of gender diversity. That obviously isn't going to happen here so the simplest thing to do is just to address some of the comments in this forum.

 

1) The most common misconception is that of strength and how many people think we have the strength of males. If that was the case then of course it would be unfair, but it is false.

 

The two main 'sex hormones' are of course testosterone and estrogen. Men and women have both of these hormones and as we all know, men have higher levels of testosterone, and women have higher levels of estrogen. It is the high levels of testosterone in males which is the main thing that gives them greater strength and larger muscle mass. It is also the case in women, with very low levels of testosterone, that we can't 'bulk up' like men, no matter how much we work out in the gym.

 

When it comes to a woman such as me, there are also physiological effects on the body as a result of going through surgery. As mentioned before, not only does muscle mass increase when testosterone is available, but testosterone is also necessary to maintain that muscle mass. If testosterone decreases then so does the muscle mass. That's part of the reason why muscle mass in men decreases with age. With age, testosterone decreases.

 

In males, testosterone is produced by the testicles. So of course, when they are removed there is nothing producing testosterone any more. (in females, testosterone is produced in small amounts by the ovaries and the adrenal glands). So in the case of transitioned women such as myself, we actually have no testosterone what so ever and no means of it's production, and all the women we compete against, all have higher levels of testosterone. A complete lack of testosterone is also unhealthy, but that's another topic of discussion.

 

As a result of a loss of testosterone, we also have a loss of muscle mass and loss of strength. This is basically permanent in irreversible! And it's not just a slow decline in testosterone and muscle mass. It's a complete loss of testosterone and a rather rapid loss of muscle over a period of two to three years or so. (if someone wants to suggest that we can just take steroids. Well, that also applies to any other women in sport).

 

Converting this to physical strength and performance, it means that we have no more ability than other women of similar size. Even on that note, there are pleny of girls on tour that are tiny compared to me that hammer the ball out of sight!! I am nowhere near them in driving distance. If you have a look at my driving distances for example, I'm generally ranked number 140-160 for the years I've been on tour.

 

Levels of hormones is something that varies greatly as it is the case when it comes to levels of testosterone in women (and men). From very low levels to very high levels. Levels that are possibly high enough to be considered in the 'male' range for testosterone. Should these women be disallowed from competing in sports, because they could be seen as having an 'unfair advantage'? I have spoken to various women on the European Tour, and some of them do in fact have very high levels of testosterone and there is no doubt it would be the same in all women's sports. The fact is, it's the case with ALL men and women in general, regardless of whether it's in sports or not.

 

Defining male an female isn't simply black and white. It is such a fluid scale that when everything is considered, it is very difficult to define when someone is male or female in a completely physiological sense.

 

 

2) Probably one of the least thought out and absurd suggestions is that some guy (who ever he is) could just go and have a 'sex change', to then play on the women's tour ...or any women's sport for that matter.

 

Look, you're not talking about having a freaking hair cut here! ....it's not just going to grow back if you don't like it!

 

I'm sure you don't all want to hear the gory details of what's involved, but suffice to say that the whole process takes about 2-3 years and the changes are permanent. It involves radical changes to the body over a long period of time while having to function in daily life while, on top of that, having to put up with the abuse and hurdles that life will want to put in your way. You have no idea what lays ahead of you! And even if some guy did decide to do it, the unavoidable physiological changes would mean that he would be no more competitive than any other professional sports woman anywa. ....so go right ahead.

 

It is true that mere surgery isn't gong to change who you are. We have always had a profound sense of being female from a very young age. The need to go through treatment and surgery is to enable us to carry on more fulfilling and productive lives. The same if any 'guy' was to have surgery, it would not change who he was. He would still be the same guy, except just look a little different! ;) ...besides that, the physiological changes to his body would still be very real and he would not be the same person physically. And while you screw up your face and cringe at the thought of having your dick cut off, then why they hell do you think some other guy is going to do it!! ...jesus, just think about it for a sec!

 

 

These issues also lead to consideration of other conditions such as intersexed conditions. People born with physical characteristics of both sexes. Be they chromosomal, hormonal or physical (this includes either internal or external reproductive organs). With someone born with physical characteristics of both sexes, how do you determine whether they are male or female?

 

A chromosome test isn't going to prove anything because they won't have the usual XX for female or XY for male. They are likely to have XXY or XXXY, or other various combinations. Just because someone has a Y chromosome, doesn't mean they are male. This is common knowledge and something you can go and read else where.

 

The only way someone can tell which sex a person is, is from the persom themselves. When people talk about female or male at birth, what does that mean? ...how is it defined? It can't merely be defined by one's phenotype. It can't be defined by chromosome tests (that's why the IOC stopped it's sex testing practices at the Olympics).

 

Basically, all of the arguments that exist in general society are understandable but cannot be substantiated with anything more than the fact that people just feel 'uncomfortable' about it. ...."it's just not right" ..."it's just not natural". On the contrary, all the arguments can be quashed by current medical and scientific knowledge and proof. If you're going to argue a point and start stating facts that you think to be true, the least someone can do is make sure they have their facts straight.

 

So if people are going to keep arguing on personal feelings, beliefs and ignorance and refuse to educate themselves on the facts, then the arguments don't really carry much weight.

 

I've done my best to make my response a brief as possible and it is by far complete. I don't know if there's any point, but I hope it's helped clarify some things?

 

If anyone has any reasonable questions then I'll come back and give the best answer I can.

 

Mianne

[BParis]

Mianne, thank you for that reply... I think we got more than your $0.02 that time. Very informative response and one that most of us have no ability to comprehend personally. Best of luck to you!

[robb01]

great reply Mianne, my personal thought is that they should not be allowed, they are still really men

[yoonie]

Let's see. . . with the new USGA Equipment Adjustability Rules, it should be o.k. as long as the "change does not occur during a stipulated round."

 

 

I lol'd. To be fair though, there are a LOT of things that happen during development that would prevent a guy with a sex change from becoming a woman. For examples, the structure of the hips, the center of gravity, the size of the hands/feet, etc. The structural difference in the hips could be a significant advantage in generating speed (or disadvantage- I'm not sure), and things like that cannot just be overlooked. Also, there's the matter of developing 3D thinking (something that men have been shown to be better at due to development direct by male hormonal chemistry)- a man->woman would have grown up developing portions of the brain that a normal female simply doesn't as much.

[Chris Mac]

I know that in the rules for the Duramed Futures Tour it states that you must be born a woman to compete. I believe its the same for the LPGA.