Handicap Question?

[honmagolf]

I'm sure somebody can answer this!

So yesterday at the club where I play, I was a witness to a argument between the Pro and a Senior Golfer.. The senior golfer asked the pro a question, now the pro is not the nicest guy not a very people person! So here is the question,

If you have an official USGA handicap using the slope/rating that the course has and the tees are no where close to where they should be according to course yardages, should your handicap really be considered official? i.e. Senior golfer plays white tees 67.6/114 but plays more like the gold tees 64.8/107 should the scores you turn in for the white tees be considered your official handicap?

I'm not a big fan of the pro, he made the senior feel stupid for even asking the question, and I may sound stupid but I just don't know the answer.

Any help would be appreciated..

[KevCarter]

I would say section 5-2 of the USGA Handicap Manual may apply here. There is a table for computing adjustments to the course rating and slope for situations like this.

[url="http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html"]http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html[/url]

I would have your friend contact your local golf association for assistance.

Kevin

[wkuo3]

[quote name='honmagolf' post='883821' date='Jan 26 2008, 12:30 PM']So yesterday at the club where I play, I was a witness to a argument between the Pro and a Senior Golfer.. The senior golfer asked the pro a question, now the pro is not the nicest guy not a very people person! So here is the question,

If you have an official USGA handicap using the slope/rating that the course has and the tees are no where close to where they should be according to course yardages, should your handicap really be considered official? i.e. Senior golfer plays white tees 67.6/114 but plays more like the gold tees 64.8/107 should the scores you turn in for the white tees be considered your official handicap?

I'm not a big fan of the pro, he made the senior feel stupid for even asking the question, and I may sound stupid but I just don't know the answer.

Any help would be appreciated..[/quote]

Thanks Kevin, that's should be the right ruling.

Message had been sent to U.S.G.A. for a final check.
But from my personal understanding, if this practice is an on going issue with tee markers place at a much forwarded distance, yes, the handicap posting should be adjusted; especially for tournament use.
Every club will move the tee markers forward or backward to give the turf a rest, but it should not be a permanent fixture to move the tees forward at a much less distance regularly.
Your pro probably is trying to make members happy.

[honmagolf]

I know he is trying to make members happy, it was just the principle of how the matter was handled. Thanks for the help!

[philfan316]

I live in Michigan and we have what is called the GAM (Golf Association of Michigan) and they come out to courses and do measurements and rate certain things about the course. It is separate from a USGA course rating and slope given out by official USGA people.

The GAM puts a permanent plate on every tee box, and those plates are used for getting an appropiate distance when the tee markers are gone or don't seem right how they are placed.

[i]Section 12 MEASUREMENTS

Definitions

Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.

12-1. Starting Point: Permanent Markers
Accurate permanent marker placement is imperative in the rating process. Permanent markers are to reflect an average placement of the movable tee markers over time. Incorrectly placed markers will make it difficult for the golf course staff to set up the course each day, keeping the effective course difficulty constant and in line with the ratings issued.

Permanent marker placement is more likely to have a greater impact on ratings than green speed, height of rough and other course maintenance practices. [b]Courses and clubs should pay special attention to this issue and are encouraged to consult the authorized golf associations in the area for assistance in determining accurate placement.[/b]

When a single tee pad is designated for one set of tees, placement of the permanent marker at a point opposite the middle of the teeing area is appropriate. This maximizes the ability of the golf course to use the entire teeing area and gives the best chance of reflecting an average of movable marker placement over time.

When more than one set of tees uses a single tee pad, consider the percentage of a club's existing or anticipated play from each set of tees when determining permanent marker placement. Allocate the percentage of play to the teeing area and place each permanent marker at a point opposite the mid-point of each of the allocated areas. As an example, a forty-yard teeing area is to be shared by three sets of tees. The club determines that 25% of play will be from the forward tees, 50% from the middle tees, and 25% from the back tees. Allocation would then have the first ten yards of the teeing area dedicated to the forward tees, the middle twenty yards to the middle tees and the final ten yards to the back tee. The permanent marker placement would be at the mid-point of each of these three areas.

On a nine-hole course, if separate tees or tee markers are used for each nine of an 18-hole round, separate measurements and permanent yardage markers must be established for each nine. The yardage markers (and their respective tee markers) for each nine may be uniquely identifiable.[/i]


The reason the pro shot down the old man is because the handicap system is a honor system in many ways. I always play the tips, at any course I play, regardless of where they put the back tee. Then when I put in my score, the slope and rating accurately match up. There are a lot of ways that people can get there handicap down, but then they shoot 10 strokes over what they should shoot.

The old man should play where the "old man" tees usually are and then he wouldn't have to worry about skewing his handicap.

[larrybud]

[quote name='philfan316' post='883866' date='Jan 26 2008, 01:04 PM']The reason the pro shot down the old man is because the handicap system is a honor system in many ways. I always play the tips, at any course I play, regardless of where they put the back tee. Then when I put in my score, the slope and rating accurately match up. There are a lot of ways that people can get there handicap down, but then they shoot 10 strokes over what they should shoot.[/quote]

Sorry, but if you're not teeing off inside the tee box, you're not exactly playing by the rules of golf, and in fact, could be skewing your handicap. If there's a 30 mph wind, it may be advisable for the course to move certain tee boxes up to do what you think you're doing: Giving the player an accurate slope and rating for the tee boxes they choose. A hole which is intended to play 400 yards may be playing 450, making it harder than what the rating committee has applied to that particular hole.

[BILL12x]

If the white tees were mostly forward to about where the gold tees usually are, just enter the score as if he played the gold tees.

No, this is not an official USGA resolution, just the fair thing to do. That's what I would do in his situation, and I certainly don't pad my handicap.

[honmagolf]

You guys are all a great help!! I appreciate it!!

The senior by know means tries to pad his handicap, we actually play together quite often and he plays to a 5.

Were just lucky enough to have a Pro/Gm who really doesn't care about his members.

Thanks Again!!

[Swingtheclub]

[quote name='honmagolf' post='883854' date='Jan 26 2008, 12:54 PM']I know he is trying to make members happy, it was just the principle of how the matter was handled. Thanks for the help![/quote]


I do not really no the answer . I believe what others posted is probably right.

Honestly I have a strong desire to defend your pro and at the same time dont want to. He may be a jerk.

Its a very tough job and thats the reason I got the hell out of the business. You could please 90 percent of the members and still get fired.

Trust me I got fired and it caused the course I was at to go bankrupt they lost half their membership.

The USGA handicap system has more flaws than anyone thing I have ever dealt with. Starting with equitable stroke control , moving on to slope, the fact that they only use your best ten of twenty scores to compute it (how is that accurate) not to mention the huge advantage it gives higher handicappers over lower handicappers.

Ask yourself what is easier for a guy who normally shoots 95 to shoot 85 or a guy that shoots 75 to shoot 65?

My honest opinion has been for a long time that the USGA should throw the handicap system out and start over.

As far as your friend and your pro. The golf pro has someone constantly on his butt about the handicap system if he was short with the senior he probably did not mean to be

Then again maybe he is a jerk I do not think I know him.

[wkuo3]

Kevcarter basically answered this question, I'm adding with the answers from the U.S.G.A. official position on this; so you could tell your Pro it's official.

[quote]
In regard to your inquiry, yardage is a significant factor when
determining the USGA Course Rating of a golf course. An error of only 22
yards in overall length will change the USGA Course Rating by 0.1 of a
stroke for men, and an error of only 18 yards will change the USGA
Course Rating by 0.1 of a stroke for women. The placement of tee
markers should remain relatively consistent on a day to day basis in
order to properly reflect the USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating as
determined by the authorized golf association.

If the placement of tees is a temporary change, the Course Rating and
Slope Rating can be modified as stated in Section 5-2g of "The USGA
Handicap System" manual. However, if the placement of tees has become a
permanent change, the authorized golf association must be contacted to
review the current USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating and to determine
whether a re-rating is necessary.

"The USGA Handicap System" manual is available on-line at
[url="http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html"]http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/manual.html[/url]

If you have any other questions, please feel free to call or reply.
Thank you for your interest in the USGA Handicap System(tm).

Sincerely,
Adam Karnish
Coordinator of Course Rating and Handicap Administration
908-234-2300 Ex. 1187
[email protected]
[end of quote]