Ball moved during search. Replace ball. Can I clean it?

[antip]

13 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Seems the USGA will let a question rattle around there for a bit in hopes that someone will post a good answer. If that doesn't happen or if a correct answer gets lost in the chaff, the USGA, often David Staebler himself, will post a polite reply. 🙂

In the last year, the USGA has engaged additional high quality resources to the F/B page - and it has made a noticeable difference. Right now, it is the only place on the planet where you will commonly see official ruling quality answers in a publicly accessible space.

[Colin L]

41 minutes ago, antip said:

In the last year, the USGA has engaged additional high quality resources to the F/B page - and it has made a noticeable difference. Right now, it is the only place on the planet where you will commonly see official ruling quality answers in a publicly accessible space.

Much as I dislike Facebook because of the convoluted way in which they structure  comments which I find hard to navigate, I've come to like the USGA page because you can just go straight to the USGA reply (which is always at the top) and not bother having to look for a machete to clear your way through the thicket of other replies. 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

USGA RESPONSE

Rule 7.3 applies to player B who lifted the ball for identification. Rule 9.6 applies to player A whose ball was moved by an outside influence. When a ball is lifted because it was moved by an outside influence the player is allowed to clean it.

 

 

 

What a pitty they have not mentioned the Rule that allows the player to clean the ball.

[Newby]

2 hours ago, antip said:

For sure, the search function on the facebook page is hit and miss, with a disproportionate weighting on miss. I know that the USGA has some issues with the platform.

 

I have direct written rulings on which my earlier posts are based.

 

And here is a facebook q/a for a related (not precisely the same) question:

 

Chris Gonzaba 26 January 2022

9.6 BALL MOVED BY OUTSIDE INFLUENCE – CAN BALL BE CLEANED?

Stroke play. Player A and Player B are fellow competitors.

On the par 4 6th hole, both players hit their tee shots right of the fairway into a muddy area.

As they approach the area, Player B lifts a ball without marking to identify it. Player A sees this, but she didn’t have an opportunity to object before it happens.

Player A tells Player B “I’m pretty sure that’s my ball”.

Player B says “Oh sorry”, and hands the ball to player A without looking at it.

Player A immediately verifies that it is her ball when she sees her mark. She then grabs a towel and cleans all of the remaining mud off the ball. She replaces the ball properly on the spot that Player B lifted it from and then plays the ball.

Any penalty for either player?

USGA RESPONSE

Rule 7.3 applies to player B who lifted the ball for identification. Rule 9.6 applies to player A whose ball was moved by an outside influence. When a ball is lifted because it was moved by an outside influence the player is allowed to clean it.

 

 

Many thanks. It's a pity the USGA and the R&A don't publish such definitive answers/rulings on their own sites.

 

Perhaps some kind WRX contributor would sort out the wheat from the chaff and create a thread here 😉 😄

[sui generis]

24 minutes ago, Newby said:

It's a pity the USGA and the R&A don't publish such definitive answers/rulings on their own sites.

 

USGA does a good job here: https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules2019.asp

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

USGA does a good job here: https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules2019.asp

 

Have all these answers been agreed with R&A ? I ask because there have been some differences in interpretation of the Rules of Golf in the past between R&A and USGA.

[rogolf]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Have all these answers been agreed with R&A ? I ask because there have been some differences in interpretation of the Rules of Golf in the past between R&A and USGA.

Not many, coordination between them is very good.

There may have been individuals on either side giving their opinions, but the organizations are very much aligned.

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by rogolf

[Colin L]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What a pitty they have not mentioned the Rule that allows the player to clean the ball.

You have Rule which cites the 4  situations in which you are not allowed to clean your lifted ball.   This situation isn't one of them.  Isn't that enough?  The familiar saying  that if it doesn't say you can't, then you can?

 

How huge would the rule book be if there had to be a Rule for everything you were allowed to do?  🙂

[Newby]

7 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

USGA does a good job here: https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules2019.asp

When Cleaning Golf Ball is Allowed

Q.When can I clean my ball?

A.You may clean your ball any time it is lifted except when you are lifting it to see if it is cut or cracked, to identify it, because it interferes with play, or to see if it lies in a condition where relief is allowed (see Rule 14.1c).

 

But there is no clarification of just what lifting is

[Colin L]

10 hours ago, Newby said:

Many thanks. It's a pity the USGA and the R&A don't publish such definitive answers/rulings on their own sites.

 

Perhaps some kind WRX contributor would sort out the wheat from the chaff and create a thread here 😉 😄

I'd suggest that publishing rulings on the USGA's  own Facebook page is just the same as publishing on its website.  🤔  

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

When Cleaning Golf Ball is Allowed

Q.When can I clean my ball?

A.You may clean your ball any time it is lifted except when you are lifting it to see if it is cut or cracked, to identify it, because it interferes with play, or to see if it lies in a condition where relief is allowed (see Rule 14.1c).

 

But there is no clarification of just what lifting is

 

Yikes, nor did they define what "is" is.  😉 (Apologies, Newby, but that's a turn on a decades old American political joke.)

[Newby]

1 minute ago, Colin L said:

I'd suggest that publishing rulings on the USGA's  own Facebook page is just the same as publishing on its website.  🤔  

But are all the rulings published on facebook actually published on their site? 

Many people do not use facebook for a variety of reasons.

 

But surely the most obvious place is on the website of the responsible authority and that should include the R&A's.  

[Newby]

5 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Yikes, nor did they define what "is" is.  😉 (Apologies, Newby, but that's a turn on a decades old American political joke.)

No problem but seriously, if 'lifting' is constrained in this case, to picking up a ball still on its original spot, surely in needs to be mentioned.

[Colin L]

32 minutes ago, Newby said:

No problem but seriously, if 'lifting' is constrained in this case, to picking up a ball still on its original spot, surely in needs to be mentioned.

But is it so constrained?  All I see are references to lifting your ball at rest.

[Augster]

Isn’t lifting when your ball was in play and now is in your hand? That’s lifted. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Isn’t lifting when your ball was in play and now is in your hand? That’s lifted. 

Even a ball moved during search is still in play, just in play at a wrong place.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Isn’t lifting when your ball was in play and now is in your hand? That’s lifted. 

At it's simplest, to "lift" is when your ball in play is being intentionally taken out of play, eg marked and lifted on the putting green. This contrasts with "moved", when a ball in play is somehow relocated to a different position but is still in play - and depending on the who and the how, that ball still in play may be in a correct place (eg moved by natural forces) or a wrong place (eg moved by outside influence). Lift vs moved issues are some of the more complex aspects of the rules.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, antip said:

At it's simplest, to "lift" is when your ball in play is being intentionally taken out of play, eg marked and lifted on the putting green. This contrasts with "moved", when a ball in play is somehow relocated to a different position but is still in play - and depending on the who and the how, that ball still in play may be in a correct place (eg moved by natural forces) or a wrong place (eg moved by outside influence). Lift vs moved issues are some of the more complex aspects of the rules.

 

Humor (or humour) me. Might we say that anyone, including the player, or anything can "move" the ball, but only the player, or their agent such as a caddie or partner, can "lift" the ball?

[antip]

9 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Humor (or humour) me. Might we say that anyone, including the player, or anything can "move" the ball, but only the player, or their agent such as a caddie or partner, can "lift" the ball?

This question is a key part of the "lift" versus "move" complexity I was referring to. But here's recent (excellent and invaluable) guidance on precisely this issue from the USGA f/b rules page:

 

CHRIS GONZABA 2 FEBRUARY 2022 

Player A and Player B are fellow competitors (EDIT: not partners) in a stroke play competition.

Player A hits out of a green side bunker to within 2 feet of the hole and while Player A is raking the bunker, Player B marks Player A’s ball, picks it up, and gently tosses it somewhere else on the green to get It it out of the way. Player A did not know this was happening.

Is Player A’s ball still in play or is it now a wrong ball?

USGA RESPONSE

It's a wrong ball. The ball was lifted, which means it was taken out of play and it was not put back into play.

However, since A was unaware of this, A is not penalized for playing a wrong ball. If this information comes to light before the player starts the next hole, the mistake must be corrected by playing replacing the ball on the correct spot (thus putting it back into play in the correct place) and finishing out the hole. If this is not discovered until after the player has started the next hole then the score with the wrong ball stands.

An old Decision covered this situation exactly (15-3b/3) and that ruling still stands, but is now covered by the premise of Interpretation 9.6/4.

 

CHRIS GONZABA FOLLOW UP QUESTION 4 FEBRUARY 2022

Thanks to the USGA for answering my previous question clarifying that a player’s ball lifted from the course by an Outside Influence is in fact out of play.

My follow up questions:

Can an Outside Influence return the ball to the course and put the player’s ball back in play?

If so, is the intent of the Outside Influence the key to whether the ball is back in play similar to when a player returns a ball to the course by replacing or dropping?

Does it matter if the Outside Influence who returns the ball to the course is or is not the person who lifted it?

USGA RESPONSE

1. Outside influences do "lift" golf balls and when they do those balls are taken out of play per the definition of in play. This is why we have both lift and moved in Rule 9.6. If it were not possible for an outside influence to lift a ball, it would say so and if there were an exception that balls lifted without authority were still in play, we would have to say so. 

2. It is important to understand that outside influence is a LARGE category of people and things, and while we want everything in a category to be treated the same, it isn't possible. For example: a loose impediment or movable obstruction are clearly not capable of lifting a ball and taking it out of play. Those outside influences could only be responsible for movement. Likewise with animals, (while we could argue may or may not have intent depending on the animal), as far as the Rules are concerned we do not apply intent to animal actions and therefore they are only responsible for movement. But when the outside influence is another player or a person, it is possible to apply intent to the action. And yes, we apply intent both to the lifting and potential replacement (or lack thereof).

3. Example 1: In a group of 3, player A hits from a deep bunker and cannot see the ball on the putting green. It is in player B's line of play. Player C, without asking and without A's knowledge marks, lifts, waits for B to putt and then replaces the ball on the same spot intending to allow A to play the ball from that spot or mark and lift as desired. That ball was taken out of play and put back into play by an outside influence who wasn’t authorized to lift and the ball could be played without penalty by A.

4. Example 2: Using the scenario above, but instead of putting the ball back, player C tosses the ball aside, intending to give it to A and let him know to replace it back in front of the ball-marker. That ball was not put back into play and if C forgets to tell A, and A goes and plays it he has technically played a wrong ball. While interpretations are not intended to be Rule making, 9.6/4 covers a similar situation where a player unknowingly plays a wrong ball through the actions of an outside influence and we do not apply a penalty in that case, but may or may not need to correct. Note that 9.6/3 only covers a ball "moved" by an outside influence which is not what has happened in this scenario.

5. Why this doesn't come up as a frequent issue is because much of the time the player becomes aware the outside influence has lifted or moved the ball before playing it. In which case 9.6 requires the player to replace the ball. This replacement takes care of both getting the ball in the correct place and...in case it were necessary... putting it back into play. So the question of whether the ball was taken out of play just doesn't come up in your ordinary 9.6 scenario.

6. The natural extension is that this can become complicated when the outside influence who lifts the ball is not a player. If that person puts the ball back down in some way, why did they do it? If they're a spectator who is no longer available for questioning, how do we know? But again, consider the various real-life scenarios for that situation: most of the time if the player ever finds out about the movement its either before playing the ball (in which case it gets replaced and is back in play properly regardless of whether it was in or out because of the random person) or long after the fact when the only result is to accept the score as played (the end result in both 9.6/3 and 9.6/4).

7. Tying it together, what does the Rule say? In play says the ball remains in play until it is holed, except when it list lifted from the course. In 14.1 lifting is internally defined as the deliberate "lifting" of a player's ball at rest which includes picking the ball up by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot. For those that argue 14.1b means someone else not authorized by 14.1b cannot "lift" a ball and take it out of play, we see why you say that, but that's not how it works. We clearly used the term lifted in a number of places referring to other persons besides those authorized in 14.1b. And then finally in Rule 14.4 including Interpretation 14.4/1 as well as the definition of drop, intent is an element in getting a ball back into play. So following the chain, yes a person who is an outside influence could take a ball out of play and put it back into play. But this essentially leads down only a handful of roads as mentioned above: if OI lifting or movement is discovered before playing that ball, the ball is replaced and takes care of eliminating both wrong place and wrong ball possibilities in one fell swoop. If it was not KVC at the time the ball was played, if the ball had just been moved we Rule that it was not a wrong place since the movement wasn’t KVC prior to the stroke (9.6/3). If the ball was out of play such that the player were unaware the ball was out of play, then we don't penalize the playing of the wrong ball and will handle whether or not a correction needs to be made based on when the discovery of the wrong ball is made(9.6/4).

8. Last but not least, yes it matters who lifted it and who puts it back. Not necessarily for putting the ball back into play, but because of Rule 14.2b(1). Take our original A, B, C scenario above except after lifting the ball to get out of B's way, C actually held on and tossed the ball to B who then replaced the ball on the original spot and picked up the ball-marker for C while walking to the hole after his putt. C originally lifted, B replaced it. If this becomes known to A before playing the ball, either A or C need to re-replace the ball. Notably, that ball is in play and in the right place…just not by the right person as required by Rule 14.2. We would not penalize the player for this mistake if A were not aware of B and C’s actions, the same way the player would not get a wrong place penalty in 9.6/3 or wrong ball penalty in 9.6/4.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by antip
Unintentionally left some of my own notations in to the original f/b material.

[sui generis]

16 minutes ago, antip said:

This question is a key part of the "lift" versus "move" complexity I was referring to. But here's recent (excellent and invaluable) guidance on precisely this issue from the USGA f/b rules page

 

Thanks, my friend. I sense that I may be getting too old for this game. In recent years I've been content to be a worker bee sitting in the shade with my radio handy to let others sort out the tough stuff. At least, I know what I know. 🙂

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, Colin L said:

You have Rule which cites the 4  situations in which you are not allowed to clean your lifted ball.   This situation isn't one of them.  Isn't that enough?  The familiar saying  that if it doesn't say you can't, then you can?

 

How huge would the rule book be if there had to be a Rule for everything you were allowed to do?  🙂

 

I was referring to the answer USGA had given. They had referred to two other Rules so why not the one that allows cleaning, that is, R14.1c ?

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, Colin L said:

I'd suggest that publishing rulings on the USGA's  own Facebook page is just the same as publishing on its website.  🤔  

 

Not really. If you have no FB account you cannot reach those rulings.

[rogolf]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Not really. If you have no FB account you cannot reach those rulings.

Then your solution to reaching them is apparent.

[mikedellgolf]

Just curious.  Should I even care about these rules when I am not playing golf for money?

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Then your solution to reaching them is apparent.

 

Indeed. It is just my view that registering to a commercial and from data protection point of view highly dubious platform is not what I call an easy-to-reach solution.

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, mikedellgolf said:

Just curious.  Should I even care about these rules when I am not playing golf for money?

 

Unless you compete you need not to. Just pay heed to the etiquette parts of the Rules.

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

	Does the following confirm or conflict with anything above?
A player is searching in the rough for his ball when another player says he has inadvertently stumbled over a ball and moved it a few inches. The player identifies it as his and proceeds to place it on its original spot. Before he does, may he now clean the ball?

The player can clean it before replacing the ball as the ball was moved by an outside influence.  Rule 9.6 applies and the ball must be replaced.   The ball is not in the player’s hand because they were identifying it, it is in their hand because it was moved and has to be replaced.   As 9.6 is not listed as one of the “don’t clean” Rules under 14.1c the ball can be cleaned.

 

Would it be the same if the player himself had accidentally moved the ball?

 

Yes same principle.

 

[antip]

44 minutes ago, Newby said:

	Does the following confirm or conflict with anything above?
A player is searching in the rough for his ball when another player says he has inadvertently stumbled over a ball and moved it a few inches. The player identifies it as his and proceeds to place it on its original spot. Before he does, may he now clean the ball?

The player can clean it before replacing the ball as the ball was moved by an outside influence.  Rule 9.6 applies and the ball must be replaced.   The ball is not in the player’s hand because they were identifying it, it is in their hand because it was moved and has to be replaced.   As 9.6 is not listed as one of the “don’t clean” Rules under 14.1c the ball can be cleaned.

 

Would it be the same if the player himself had accidentally moved the ball?

 

Yes same principle.

 

Absolutely consistent.

[Newby]

34 minutes ago, antip said:

Absolutely consistent.

These words provided by the R&A are helpful (to me at least) "it is in their hand because it was moved and has to be replaced". 

[antip]

8 minutes ago, Newby said:

These words provided by the R&A are helpful (to me at least) "it is in their hand because it was moved and has to be replaced". 

All is good. I don't personally see this version as superior to the USGA words provided earlier - "Rule 9.6 applies to player A whose ball was moved by an outside influence. When a ball is lifted because it was moved by an outside influence the player is allowed to clean it."