Another "secret" revealed...

[Dariusz J.]

...as in the topic ;) :

 

 

I do not buy it, sorry, but I wonder what other Hogan fans think...

 

Cheers.

[chico713]

this guy looks all tied up and tense - hogan's swing worked for hogan - if you're thinking about where your arms and elbows are, you're done before you start.

[dlygrisse]

That is Tom Bertrand the author of "The Secret of Hogans Swing" he is a member on this forum, goes by the name of Schleeman, his theories are based on what he learned working with John Schlee, who spent a lot of time with Ben Hogan, I know, this because I have read his book and participated in a couple of the threads here on this forum when the book was released, you can find some of his posts by doing a search. As far as the validity of what he is saying.....I am not the expert but I do find it interesting.

 

http://www.thesecretofhogansswing.com/

[WorkingOnIt]

 

Stop the above video at 1:09 and 1:10 which is past impact and check Hogan's left arm. He is not doing what Bertrand is indicating at all, at the very least not nearly to the extent that is being demonstrated. At 1:10 the left elbow appears to be pointed towards the trees and the inside of the arm is facing straight at the camera.

[bam15]

No really knows what Hogan did and I wouldn't believe anyone making these claims, the only person who knew fully what Hogan did was Hogan.

[rok78]

Actually anyone who can view slo-mo video can know what Hogan did, the only one who can know Hogan's intent is Hogan. If anyone would know what Hogan's theories behind the swing was it would be Schlee, and through him Tom Bertrand. The left elbow to the hip is how the upper part of the left arm remains connected and moves left after impact with the rotating body. Tom himself has posted before that you probably won't do it exactly through impact, but you're better off attempting to do it than not.

 

For use drills like the glove under the armpit and it accomplishes much the same thing. In that vid posted of Hogan swinging, forget impact, look at where his elbow is waist high going through. It's rotating towards the left hip. It's a very good way to keep connected through impact.

[hoganfan924]

Actually anyone who can view slo-mo video can know what Hogan did, the only one who can know Hogan's intent is Hogan. If anyone would know what Hogan's theories behind the swing was it would be Schlee, and through him Tom Bertrand. The left elbow to the hip is how the upper part of the left arm remains connected and moves left after impact with the rotating body. Tom himself has posted before that you probably won't do it exactly through impact, but you're better off attempting to do it than not.

 

For use drills like the glove under the armpit and it accomplishes much the same thing. In that vid posted of Hogan swinging, forget impact, look at where his elbow is waist high going through. It's rotating towards the left hip. It's a very good way to keep connected through impact.

 

Outstanding points Rick. I prefer to stay out of this debate. Tom has been very generous in answering my questions and even sent me a copy of his DVD's. I have no doubt that he is 100% sincere and honest in passing along what Schlee taught him and what Schlee told him was passed along by Hogan.

 

I found this little tidbit that lends a lot of credibility to what Tom is saying. This is a quote from Hogan (excerpted from a speech he gave at the 1988 Awards show celebrating 100 years of American Golf):

 

(Speaking about Harry Vardon as he was offering an analyis of Vardon's action)

 

"You'll notice his finish with his left elbow down, even though the finish is relaxed somewhat. Now in order for him to get there, he must rotate the left arm as he comes through and the left elbow will be down. If you don't rotate it, it will be out here." (I presume he then displayed a left arm chicken wing)........

 

Later (in the same speech) he said: "Another thing, I want you to rotate your left arm coming through, and you can even start it back up here if you want to because you can't have the speed beyond the ball unless your elbow is turned - your arm, your left arm, is turned. You will hit it straighter and it will go farther."

 

That's all I have to say about that.

[ej002]

I understand Mr. Bertrand's Hogan linieage. But I don't see this "active" move either. But I who am I? But in the limited footage and picutres that I have, it appears to me that elbow move is the effect of his upper body rotating and the club releasing. I think if I trid to do that move I would get tendinitis... JMO

 

But interesting.

[Dariusz J.]

First, that move (turn of the lead elbow) would lead to early crossover of forearms (swivel) - i.e. something that Hogan did not want. Second, that move would close the clubface severely - also something that Hogan did not want, especially with his weak grip and his clubface already perpendicular to the swing arc while swinging in-to-in. Thirdly, when analyzing Hogan's swing I see the inside part of his both elbows "looking" at each other until his very late swivel, when watching him swinging from FO view:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just my 3 eurocents, cheers.

[WorkingOnIt]

Dariusz, that second to last picture has the same postion that I pointed out in the video clip. I don't see the move as being demonstrated either. When Tom's book came out he hit a lot of discussion boards to advertise it and on another board he posted a claim about a different part of the swing and what Hogan did. I pointed out using pictures and video that Hogan did not do what he said and he countered that Hogan wanted to do that but could not due to his accident. I pointed out that he did not do it prior to his accident either and he stopped responding. I have no problem with presenting something as a feel with an accurate description of what really happens, but I have not seen that. I see these greatly exagerated positions that are not being presented as being exagerated and I think it could be misinterpreted by someone that may not know any better.

[mizuno67]

First, that move (turn of the lead elbow) would lead to early crossover of forearms (swivel) - i.e. something that Hogan did not want. Second, that move would close the clubface severely - also something that Hogan did not want, especially with his weak grip and his clubface already perpendicular to the swing arc while swinging in-to-in. Thirdly, when analyzing Hogan's swing I see the inside part of his both elbows "looking" at each other until his very late swivel, when watching him swinging from FO view:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just my 3 eurocents, cheers.

 

you are basing your statement on jim hardy's theory that hogan had the clubface perpendicular to the arc which is not a proven fact firstly he used clubs which were turned open second he released the club with " added loft on the face" and third his lower body was always turning just look at his left forearm even after impact it is still on the right side of his spine and hogan may very well have felt he was doing what TB is advocating but it ain't worth 1 cent unless you have the fantastic pivot which allowed him to release everthing through the ball

i have not read his book but i bet he writes about the pivot etc etc etc

[Dariusz J.]

you are basing your statement on jim hardy's theory that hogan had the clubface perpendicular to the arc which is not a proven fact firstly he used clubs which were turned open second he released the club with " added loft on the face" and third his lower body was always turning just look at his left forearm even after impact it is still on the right side of his spine and hogan may very well have felt he was doing what TB is advocating but it ain't worth 1 cent unless you have the fantastic pivot which allowed him to release everthing through the ball

i have not read his book but i bet he writes about the pivot etc etc etc

 

No, I am basing my statement on my researches. It's clearly visible that Hogan's clubface started to be perpendicular to the arc well before the impact zone and lasts well after impact. If you know something about Hardy's theory you wouldn't say something like this - FYI, Jim Hardy wants his players to deliver the clubface perpendicular to the swing arc a lot earlier, even before waist thigh position of the clubhead (this is why this famous "twist & throw" term came into use) because hardly someone could match Hogan in his pivot action and to square the clubface well enough by the body turn. Hogan delivered his clubfaces later than Hardy recommends, but as I said, well before impact and lead it by his great pivot action + IMHO, right forearm push - just as e.g. on these photos (there are a lot more of them to prove it):

 

 

 

 

I'd recommend you to do your own researches instead copying someone's elses ideas - maybe you'll find something interesting, too.

 

Cheers

[FlyFish]

I know that Hogan wrote that he wished that he had three right hands, but wouldn't a dominant right hand push pull the left arm off of the chest? He looks pretty connected to me. Perhaps he did a little of both.

[Schleeman]

Dariusz, that second to last picture has the same postion that I pointed out in the video clip. I don't see the move as being demonstrated either. When Tom's book came out he hit a lot of discussion boards to advertise it and on another board he posted a claim about a different part of the swing and what Hogan did. I pointed out using pictures and video that Hogan did not do what he said and he countered that Hogan wanted to do that but could not due to his accident. I pointed out that he did not do it prior to his accident either and he stopped responding. I have no problem with presenting something as a feel with an accurate description of what really happens, but I have not seen that. I see these greatly exagerated positions that are not being presented as being exagerated and I think it could be misinterpreted by someone that may not know any better.

 

First of all, I always try to explain myself as what Hogan 'tried to do' and not what Hogan did. I realize all you have to go on is photos and videos of Hogan during his playing years. What I am trying to bring to light is what Hogan passed on to Schlee from '69 to '74. I wish I knew what Hogan learned from '74 until his passing.

As far as exagerated positions, I never said they were not exagerated. When you want to learn how to hit a draw, do you not first try to hit a hook?

One key insight to those of you who want more proof of what I am trying to explain about the left arm can be found in Hogan's 1985 new forward when he was talking to Nick Seitz. Hogan said, "The idea is to rotate the club with your left arm. You have do do it with the left arm."

Sorry about not responding all the time. I get kinda busy.

 

TB

[WorkingOnIt]

Dariusz, that second to last picture has the same postion that I pointed out in the video clip. I don't see the move as being demonstrated either. When Tom's book came out he hit a lot of discussion boards to advertise it and on another board he posted a claim about a different part of the swing and what Hogan did. I pointed out using pictures and video that Hogan did not do what he said and he countered that Hogan wanted to do that but could not due to his accident. I pointed out that he did not do it prior to his accident either and he stopped responding. I have no problem with presenting something as a feel with an accurate description of what really happens, but I have not seen that. I see these greatly exagerated positions that are not being presented as being exagerated and I think it could be misinterpreted by someone that may not know any better.

 

First of all, I always try to explain myself as what Hogan 'tried to do' and not what Hogan did. I realize all you have to go on is photos and videos of Hogan during his playing years. What I am trying to bring to light is what Hogan passed on to Schlee from '69 to '74. I wish I knew what Hogan learned from '74 until his passing.

As far as exagerated positions, I never said they were not exagerated. When you want to learn how to hit a draw, do you not first try to hit a hook?

One key insight to those of you who want more proof of what I am trying to explain about the left arm can be found in Hogan's 1985 new forward when he was talking to Nick Seitz. Hogan said, "The idea is to rotate the club with your left arm. You have do do it with the left arm."

Sorry about not responding all the time. I get kinda busy.

 

TB

 

 

Tom, don't take what I said as an attack but as potentially helpful criticism. In watching your video you didn't say that they weren't exagerated but you didn't say that they were either. If someone that is new to the game or not as experienced with their swing is watching they can take what you are showing as the postion to be in. Contrast that with these pictures of Hogan at impact and you see that his elbow is not pointing that much differently than most good players at impact.

 

 

 

 

[hayam]

Tom,

 

So the turning of the arm is more of an active force instead of a reactive motion?

[Schleeman]

Tom,

 

So the turning of the arm is more of an active force instead of a reactive motion?

 

Yes. You have to train yourself, in slow motion, before you even attempt it at a higher speed. Remember, in the impact zone, you will never get where the left elbow is pointing at the left hip.

It's impossible, with centrifugal force acting on the arms, but the benefit of trying, will be the connection of the arms working together and not independently through the hitting area.

[Schleeman]

Dariusz, that second to last picture has the same postion that I pointed out in the video clip. I don't see the move as being demonstrated either. When Tom's book came out he hit a lot of discussion boards to advertise it and on another board he posted a claim about a different part of the swing and what Hogan did. I pointed out using pictures and video that Hogan did not do what he said and he countered that Hogan wanted to do that but could not due to his accident. I pointed out that he did not do it prior to his accident either and he stopped responding. I have no problem with presenting something as a feel with an accurate description of what really happens, but I have not seen that. I see these greatly exagerated positions that are not being presented as being exagerated and I think it could be misinterpreted by someone that may not know any better.

 

First of all, I always try to explain myself as what Hogan 'tried to do' and not what Hogan did. I realize all you have to go on is photos and videos of Hogan during his playing years. What I am trying to bring to light is what Hogan passed on to Schlee from '69 to '74. I wish I knew what Hogan learned from '74 until his passing.

As far as exagerated positions, I never said they were not exagerated. When you want to learn how to hit a draw, do you not first try to hit a hook?

One key insight to those of you who want more proof of what I am trying to explain about the left arm can be found in Hogan's 1985 new forward when he was talking to Nick Seitz. Hogan said, "The idea is to rotate the club with your left arm. You have do do it with the left arm."

Sorry about not responding all the time. I get kinda busy.

 

TB

 

 

Tom, don't take what I said as an attack but as potentially helpful criticism. In watching your video you didn't say that they weren't exagerated but you didn't say that they were either. If someone that is new to the game or not as experienced with their swing is watching they can take what you are showing as the postion to be in. Contrast that with these pictures of Hogan at impact and you see that his elbow is not pointing that much differently than most good players at impact.

 

 

 

 

I didn't take it as an attack. Sorry if I came off that way. Hogan wanted the arms to work together. This was another way to get that point across to Schlee. With inward pressure on the arms Hogan wanted the left elbow to fold to the ground after impact, to mirror the right elbow on the backswing, but realized it wasn't going to happen because of the high rate of speed in and after the hitting area.

 

TB

[rankoutsider]

I know that Hogan wrote that he wished that he had three right hands, but wouldn't a dominant right hand push pull the left arm off of the chest? He looks pretty connected to me. Perhaps he did a little of both.

 

not necessarily, although it seems like a right-hand swing might "spring" the club up and out, off the chest, exactly as you say, you can find a path for that hand that will bring the club into the body a bit (or at least it feels that way to me as i learn this type of swing), and have the butt of the club work left through the impact zone.

 

i think tom is very knowledgeable and a fantastic resource on this board. i'm not sure that i agree with this point (i've got to think more about it), but i thank him immensely for giving us the benefit of all of his research and thinking.

 

rank

[hayam]

I know that Hogan wrote that he wished that he had three right hands, but wouldn't a dominant right hand push pull the left arm off of the chest? He looks pretty connected to me. Perhaps he did a little of both.

 

not necessarily, although it seems like a right-hand swing might "spring" the club up and out, off the chest, exactly as you say, you can find a path for that hand that will bring the club into the body a bit (or at least it feels that way to me as i learn this type of swing), and have the butt of the club work left through the impact zone.

 

i think tom is very knowledgeable and a fantastic resource on this board. i'm not sure that i agree with this point (i've got to think more about it), but i thank him immensely for giving us the benefit of all of his research and thinking.

 

rank

Yeah,, with that kind of rolling, he better have very strong right hands.

 

Hogan also have a weak grip.

[rok78]

The meat and potatos of this move is the connection of the arms and the body. That's it. Whether it's active or not depends on the individual. If someone comes over the top, they have to actively attempt a move to come from the inside, which is probably a move that someone who hits a big hook would not have to actively try to do.

 

To me, it's not really important if Hogan did or did not do it in his swing through impact, I get the message of connection so let that be the focus. Keeping the arms connected to the body lets things release naturaly without hand manipulation or as SF likes to say "allows physics to take over." I can already see this thread going down the road of arguing over semantics and losing sight of the goal from Tom's video. So you don't want to actively think of turning the left elbow towards your hip? Fine, stick a glove under your left armpit and accomplish much of the same thing.

[rankoutsider]

The meat and potatos of this move is the connection of the arms and the body. That's it. Whether it's active or not depends on the individual. If someone comes over the top, they have to actively attempt a move to come from the inside, which is probably a move that someone who hits a big hook would not have to actively try to do.

 

To me, it's not really important if Hogan did or did not do it in his swing through impact, I get the message of connection so let that be the focus. Keeping the arms connected to the body lets things release naturaly without hand manipulation or as SF likes to say "allows physics to take over." I can already see this thread going down the road of arguing over semantics and losing sight of the goal from Tom's video. So you don't want to actively think of turning the left elbow towards your hip? Fine, stick a glove under your left armpit and accomplish much of the same thing.

 

hey rok: i take your provisos about argument to heart, but what you are saying and what tom is saying on youtube are very very different. the glove in the arm pit keeps the upper arm connected to the chest through the swing, the rotation of the lead elbow would make up for any disconnection that has happened with the swing: the first keeps a space closed (as an ideal) and the next closes a space that has become opened. very different IMO.

 

there is no problem with arguing, even arguing semantics, as long as everyone stays civil.

 

rank

[hoganfan924]

The meat and potatos of this move is the connection of the arms and the body. That's it. Whether it's active or not depends on the individual. If someone comes over the top, they have to actively attempt a move to come from the inside, which is probably a move that someone who hits a big hook would not have to actively try to do.

 

To me, it's not really important if Hogan did or did not do it in his swing through impact, I get the message of connection so let that be the focus. Keeping the arms connected to the body lets things release naturaly without hand manipulation or as SF likes to say "allows physics to take over." I can already see this thread going down the road of arguing over semantics and losing sight of the goal from Tom's video. So you don't want to actively think of turning the left elbow towards your hip? Fine, stick a glove under your left armpit and accomplish much of the same thing.

 

Another good post Rick and I agree. Another way to ingrain "keeping the left elbow down" is to make left handed only swings and concentrate on fully releasing and maintaining connection through impact (much tougher to do than with 2 handed swings). What Hogan did and Tom is advocating is the complete opposite of Hardy's "elbow the guy standing behind you" feeling.

[Dariusz J.]

I know that Hogan wrote that he wished that he had three right hands, but wouldn't a dominant right hand push pull the left arm off of the chest? He looks pretty connected to me. Perhaps he did a little of both.

 

As far as I know, Hogan was left hand dominant person. He wished three right hands since he clearly had to come into conclusion that he needs more of his right hand (according to my theory - right forearm) action to execute the swing he wanted. If he did not need his right hand stronger, he would have stayed where he was with his left dominant arm.

As regards your question - it depends what direction you want to throw your forearm to. This is the whole key - if your body is square to the target at impact you could throw your right forearm out to the target or even to the right only and it really could caused a disconnection. However, in case of a rotary swing motion, your body is open at impact and you're throwing your rear forearm down and to the left of the target line (i.e. to the inside), especially when your right elbow is sort of leveraged on your rear hip. The connection between left upper arm and the body is perfect, since the left arm must fold in elbow and may go only even more to the inside - what matches perfectly all the lego pieces.

 

Cheers

[WorkingOnIt]

I didn't take it as an attack. Sorry if I came off that way. Hogan wanted the arms to work together. This was another way to get that point across to Schlee. With inward pressure on the arms Hogan wanted the left elbow to fold to the ground after impact, to mirror the right elbow on the backswing, but realized it wasn't going to happen because of the high rate of speed in and after the hitting area.

 

TB

 

Thanks Tom. It is an interesting thought and I am not denying its potential value. My point of conflict was based on the demonstrated positions and the possible ambiguity with Hogan's and/or an observer's actual swing.

[Dariusz J.]

One key insight to those of you who want more proof of what I am trying to explain about the left arm can be found in Hogan's 1985 new forward when he was talking to Nick Seitz. Hogan said, "The idea is to rotate the club with your left arm. You have do do it with the left arm."

Sorry about not responding all the time. I get kinda busy.

 

TB

 

 

OK, but did Hogan clearly say what part of the swing he thought about when saying this ? You have drawn the conclusion that it concerns the impact zone...and who can tell, maybe he thought about rotating the club with his left arm earlier in the downswing in order to deliver the clubface perpendicular to the swing arc ?

Like it's happening e.g. on this photo sequence ? :

 

 

 

 

 

 

I deliver my clubface perpendicular with my right arm, but I am right hand dominant. He was a left hand dominant person and he could or even should (in this case) use his left arm. This exact moment of left elbow turn is, IMHO, justified at least the same as in your theory. Couldn't it have been this way ?

 

Please look at his left arm, especially upper left arm on those 3 photos above - and compare its movement in relation to the movement of his shouders (during pivoting); the position of the left upper arm shows that something active happens with it exactly IN THIS MOMENT of swing motion. It looks like the left arm accelerates comparing to his shoulders - in fact, it could be just the process of delivering the clubface to its square position to the arc by means of his left elbow turn.

 

Cheers

[rok78]

The meat and potatos of this move is the connection of the arms and the body. That's it. Whether it's active or not depends on the individual. If someone comes over the top, they have to actively attempt a move to come from the inside, which is probably a move that someone who hits a big hook would not have to actively try to do.

 

To me, it's not really important if Hogan did or did not do it in his swing through impact, I get the message of connection so let that be the focus. Keeping the arms connected to the body lets things release naturaly without hand manipulation or as SF likes to say "allows physics to take over." I can already see this thread going down the road of arguing over semantics and losing sight of the goal from Tom's video. So you don't want to actively think of turning the left elbow towards your hip? Fine, stick a glove under your left armpit and accomplish much of the same thing.

 

hey rok: i take your provisos about argument to heart, but what you are saying and what tom is saying on youtube are very very different. the glove in the arm pit keeps the upper arm connected to the chest through the swing, the rotation of the lead elbow would make up for any disconnection that has happened with the swing: the first keeps a space closed (as an ideal) and the next closes a space that has become opened. very different IMO.

 

there is no problem with arguing, even arguing semantics, as long as everyone stays civil.

 

rank

 

 

I got you rank. Especially the last bit. It's just too many threads don't remain civil. It's why I don't post much in this forum and Hoganfan has to be subjected to my PM's :drinks:.

 

I understand your point about the glove under the armpit and the difference with the "closing of a space" (however small that space may be) of the left elbow, that's why I said "much of the same thing" in my post. I meant the follow through part after impact and that connection. Sorry, I wasn't clearer in my original post.

[rankoutsider]

hey rok: i completely agree with what you are saying about that point of connection. in texarkana, i had about 3 hours of "schooling" on this very point. i had visions on hogan's armpit all the way home, including 5 hours in the airport in phoenix.

 

what i was saying was that this other move seems to me a bit more "up in the air" factually. not that it isn't correct, but that it is much more open to interpretation. the move you were talking about is not really open to much debate, in my humble opinion. it's there for sure.

 

the other thing that i see is that whatever kind of shot hogan was hitting, he did it with that point of connection in his lead armpit. this other move may well be something he did when he was trying to hit a draw, but it seems to me difficult to see this as part of his "stock" release of the clubhead. but, of course, i could be wrong. whenever you look at video of hogan you wish you could always see the ballflight just so you know for sure what he is up to with that swing.

 

i think those PMs make hoganfan feel loved and appreciated, so however they come about is good.

 

cheers,

rank

[xiaoxiong]

I know that Hogan wrote that he wished that he had three right hands, but wouldn't a dominant right hand push pull the left arm off of the chest? He looks pretty connected to me. Perhaps he did a little of both.

 

As far as I know, Hogan was left hand dominant person. He wished three right hands since he clearly had to come into conclusion that he needs more of his right hand (according to my theory - right forearm) action to execute the swing he wanted. If he did not need his right hand stronger, he would have stayed where he was with his left dominant arm.

 

Cheers

 

This maybe a little off topic.

 

Not sure I agree with your theory. Being a physics major in graduate school, I am in agreement with SF's statement that no push force can work against a pull force unless your leading arm slow down.

 

Cheers,

[Dariusz J.]

I know that Hogan wrote that he wished that he had three right hands, but wouldn't a dominant right hand push pull the left arm off of the chest? He looks pretty connected to me. Perhaps he did a little of both.

 

As far as I know, Hogan was left hand dominant person. He wished three right hands since he clearly had to come into conclusion that he needs more of his right hand (according to my theory - right forearm) action to execute the swing he wanted. If he did not need his right hand stronger, he would have stayed where he was with his left dominant arm.

 

Cheers

 

This maybe a little off topic.

 

Not sure I agree with your theory. Being a physics major in graduate school, I am in agreement with SF's statement that no push force can work against a pull force unless your leading arm slow down.

 

Cheers,

 

It is off topic, but I'll answer you. The situation you describe is valid in case of both arm straight. However, when the right elbow is sort of anchored against rear hip and the rear arm is bent in elbow, it's very easy to convert the overall pulling motion into a pushing motion of the right forearm (I repeat, right forearm, not the whole arm !). The pivot slows down before impact (as explained in "kinetic chain" thread) and right forearm push turboes the speed. Try it yourself, please, and you'll see how easy it is when you can go into the proper position just before the impact.

 

Cheers