USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Pnwpingi210]

15 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

You must be talking about raw number of fairways, because his driving accuracy was better in 2003 than it was in 2023.  I just don't understand why he can't hit it straighter now if it's so easy.

Could be lots of factors.

 

Are the courses setup with more narrow fairways today than in 2003?

Are the fairways setup to be firmer than today than they were in 2003?

 

We do know that course strategy has changed with the development of strokes gained.  Players know that it’s more advantageous to hit the ball farther (more distance) even if it’s in the rough (less accuracy).  This change in strategy occurred after 2003, and before 2021-2023.  How much this is impacting Adam’s accuracy we don’t know, but it likely does since he’s driving the ball 14 yards farther at 42 than he did at 22.  

 Cam champ is a great example of this recently pointed out in this thread.  163 in accuracy, 1st in distance and 5th in strokes gained off the tee. He gains double the amount of strokes off the tee vs the current accuracy leader, Colin Morikowa.

 

 

Edited May 23 by Pnwpingi210

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Just now, clevited said:

 

Actually, I believe it was available to tour players as early as 2000.

 

Man, I didn't know that.  Thanks.  I just remember it being released to us in 2003 and it being like Christmas because we all thought it was longer and spun less.  We had no idea if that was true, of course.

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Just for clarification, the ProV1x didn't exist in 2000.  It was released in 2003. 

Correct.  The prov1 was introduced in 2000 and was urethane.  Adam played the prov1x in 2003.

 

 

[clevited]

8 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

Man, I didn't know that.  Thanks.  I just remember it being released to us in 2003 and it being like Christmas because we all thought it was longer and spun less.  We had no idea if that was true, of course.

 

My bad, you said specifically the Prov1x not ProV1 in general.  I will take a drink haha.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

34 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Could be lots of factors.

 

Are the courses setup with more narrow fairways today than in 2003?

Are the fairways setup to be firmer than today than they were in 2003?

 

We do know that course strategy has changed with the development of strokes gained.  Players know that it’s more advantageous to hit the ball farther (more distance) even if it’s in the rough (less accuracy).  This change in strategy occurred after 2003, and before 2021-2023.  How much this is impacting Adam’s accuracy we don’t know, but it likely does since he’s driving the ball 14 yards farther at 42 than he did at 22.  

 Cam champ is a great example of this recently pointed out in this thread.  163 in accuracy, 1st in distance and 5th in strokes gained off the tee. He gains double the amount of strokes off the tee vs the current accuracy leader, Colin Morikowa.

 

 

 

All good questions to ask someone who says it takes less skill to drive it straight now than when he was hitting it by almost everyone.  

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

All good questions to ask someone who says it takes less skill to drive it straight now than when he was hitting it by almost everyone.  

Fair.  He’s also 20 years older, and still hitting it farther than 92 percent of professionals.  Is that still “almost everyone” in your opinion?

 

I think fundamentally you are using a metric a that measures hitting a fairway (hitting the fairway) as “hitting the ball straighter”.   While it’s the easiest and most readily available metric, it’s likely flawed to determine how straight Adam’s is hitting the ball compared to his peers (better to say how often or close Adam hits his intended target) as professional golf strategy has changed and tour pros place less of a premium on in the fairway, and more of a premium on farther while avoiding hazards and having an advantageous approach angle.  
 

(Major championships course are the exception and place more of a premium on the fairways due to rough setups )

 

I’m explaining this since you said you don’t understand why he’s not hitting straighter.  These are factors. You can evaluate their relevancy and dismiss them if you like.

[GoGoErky]

10 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Fair.  He’s also 20 years older, and still hitting it farther than 92 percent of professionals.  Is that still “almost everyone” in your opinion?

 

I think fundamentally you are using a metric a that measures hitting a fairway (hitting the fairway) as “hitting the ball straighter”.   While it’s the easiest and most readily available metric, it’s likely flawed to determine how straight Adam’s is hitting the ball compared to his peers (better to say how often or close Adam hits his intended target) as professional golf strategy has changed and tour pros place less of a premium on in the fairway, and more of a premium on farther while avoiding hazards and having an advantageous approach angle.  
 

(Major championships course are the exception and place more of a premium on the fairways due to rough setups )

 

I’m explaining this since you said you don’t understand why he’s not hitting straighter.  These are factors. You can evaluate their relevancy and dismiss them if you like.

What you are talking about is dispersion pattern. The pros have roughly a 65 yard dispersion pattern with driver. I believe that’s discussed in the decade material.

 

That dispersion pattern probably hasn’t narrowed at all in the modern era. 

[Golfnutgalen]

Fairway hit percentage has been going down ever since 1995 (69.8%). Last year was the worst percentage ever although so far this year has been an improvement for the tour as a whole.

 

Knowing this all these arguments about Adam Scott's driving accuracy are completely pointless. Vijay Singh is one of the first players to develop this bomb and gouge mentality and the rest of the tour for the most part has followed suit. Okay, maybe some will Say Daly was the first, but he was pretty inconsistent, so the tour didn't copy him. 

 

Even in 2003 the tour hit 67% of the fairways. Last year was 59%. This year is 62.66%.

 

10 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

What you are talking about is dispersion pattern. The pros have roughly a 65 yard dispersion pattern with driver. I believe that’s discussed in the decade material.

 

That dispersion pattern probably hasn’t narrowed at all in the modern era. 

 

You shouldn't be looking at the dispersion in terms of yards. Instead look at in terms of degrees offline.

Edited May 23 by Golfnutgalen

[Pnwpingi210]

4 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

What you are talking about is dispersion pattern. The pros have roughly a 65 yard dispersion pattern with driver. I believe that’s discussed in the decade material.

 

That dispersion pattern probably hasn’t narrowed at all in the modern era. 

Maybe you are correct.

 

but 65 yard dispersion at 314 yards is less offline (when measure in degrees) than 65 yards at 299

[Ashley Schaeffer]

29 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Fair.  He’s also 20 years older, and still hitting it farther than 92 percent of professionals.  Is that still “almost everyone” in your opinion?

 

I think fundamentally you are using a metric a that measures hitting a fairway (hitting the fairway) as “hitting the ball straighter”.   While it’s the easiest and most readily available metric, it’s likely flawed to determine how straight Adam’s is hitting the ball compared to his peers (better to say how often or close Adam hits his intended target) as professional golf strategy has changed and tour pros place less of a premium on in the fairway, and more of a premium on farther while avoiding hazards and having an advantageous approach angle.  
 

(Major championships course are the exception and place more of a premium on the fairways due to rough setups )

 

I’m explaining this since you said you don’t understand why he’s not hitting straighter.  These are factors. You can evaluate their relevancy and dismiss them if you like.

 

I won't dismiss them because you've made valid points.  I can understand why a player might err toward one side or the other, end up in the rough, and think, "no big deal; I have a good angle".  What I'm saying is that it's not exactly new. We were already doing that in 2003 (I don't say "we" to suggest that I ever played on TV or anything).  With that in mind, it seems odd that a player who says it's much easier to hit fairways with the modern driver would make, I guess, the choice(?) to hit fewer.  An alternate view might be that just maybe there are more players better than him now, and he doesn't like it.  It's nothing against Scott.  It happens in every single sport.  Nicklaus started the, "Yeah, but . . ." in golf, but watch an episode of Inside the NBA or MLB Tonight, and you hear the same stuff.  

 

I'm just going to EDIT to add this instead of a new post:

 

I think it's admirable when older players to say these younger guys are faster, more athletic, better trained, etc. than the old guard.  They are more skilled at the current game.  I really only take issue when people want to take the skills it took to be good at the game in ~1995, act like they are superior skills, and try to force them into the current game.  

Edited May 23 by Ashley Schaeffer

[Pnwpingi210]

15 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

I won't dismiss them because you've made valid points.  I can understand why a player might err toward one side or the other, end up in the rough, and think, "no big deal; I have a good angle".  What I'm saying is that it's not exactly new. We were already doing that in 2003 (I don't say "we" to suggest that I ever played on TV or anything).  With that in mind, it seems odd that a player who says it's much easier to hit fairways with the modern driver would make, I guess, the choice(?) to hit fewer.  An alternate view might be that just maybe there are more players better than him now, and he doesn't like it.  It's nothing against Scott.  It happens in every single sport.  Nicklaus started the, "Yeah, but . . ." in golf, but watch an episode of Inside the NBA or MLB Tonight, and you hear the same stuff.  

Ah yes, Adam and his sour grapes.  Can’t dispute that.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Ah yes, Adam and his sour grapes.  Can’t dispute that.

I don't think he has sour grapes (unless that's a winery joke 😂), yet.  But when I start to see guys talking about how easy the youngsters have it, it kind of makes me think of the natural progression of athletics in general.  I 100% believe I could score better with y2000-2003 equipment than almost everyone with whom I currently play, because that's when I was good.  But that's not the game now.  I like to see people do things I can't do.  

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

I don't think he has sour grapes (unless that's a winery joke 😂), yet.  But when I start to see guys talking about how easy the youngsters have it, it kind of makes me think of the natural progression of athletics in general.  I 100% believe I could score better with y2000-2003 equipment than almost everyone with whom I currently play, because that's when I was good.  But that's not the game now.  I like to see people do things I can't do.  

He’s not talking about easy youngsters have it that qoute, he’s applying to all current professionals golfers and how the golf has change in 20 years.  It does not matter their age.   He does mention 130 clubs speed, but that’s not limited to those youngsters (Bryson is 30, champ is 28, finau is 33). 
 

maybe you are reading an article I haven’t seen where he says it differently.  But I certainly don’t get that narrative from the print I read.

 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

13 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

He’s not talking about easy youngsters have it that qoute, he’s applying to all current professionals golfers and how the golf has change in 20 years.  It does not matter their age.   He does mention 130 clubs speed, but that’s not limited to those youngsters (Bryson is 30, champ is 28, finau is 33). 
 

maybe you are reading an article I haven’t seen where he says it differently.  But I certainly don’t get that narrative from the print I read.

 

 

C'mon, man.  Replace "youngsters" with "people faster than I am", I suppose.  The quote was clearly aimed that way.  "Wanna swing 130 [with the stuff I had to play back in the day], good luck."  If that isn't Chuck and Shaq talking about how soft NBA players are nowadays, I don't know what is.  

 

But, here's the thing: They're all likely correct.  I'm saying that doesn't mean we have to regress.

[Pnwpingi210]

Again th

5 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

C'mon, man.  Replace "youngsters" with "people faster than I am", I suppose.  The quote was clearly aimed that way.  "Wanna swing 130 [with the stuff I had to play back in the day], good luck."  If that isn't Chuck and Shaq talking about how soft NBA players are nowadays, I don't know what is.  

 

But, here's the thing: They're all likely correct.  I'm saying that doesn't mean we have to regress.

Yeah man.  It applies to everyone that swings fast.  The 30 yr old guys just as much as the youngsters.

I can’t change the narrative or bias you’ve built around this.  I’ve refuted a most of what you presented with some sort of data or deductive logic around strokes gained and your response is yeah, but I just think he’s got it out for the younger guys who swing faster then me.  (Regardless of clubhead speed, he was 17th in driving distance last year.  Better than 92% of the field - he’s not slow, and in fact he’s longer now than in 2003)

 

agree to disagree.

[clevited]

35 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

He’s not talking about easy youngsters have it that qoute, he’s applying to all current professionals golfers and how the golf has change in 20 years.  It does not matter their age.   He does mention 130 clubs speed, but that’s not limited to those youngsters (Bryson is 30, champ is 28, finau is 33). 
 

maybe you are reading an article I haven’t seen where he says it differently.  But I certainly don’t get that narrative from the print I read.

 

 

I mean, did you ask him what he meant exactly?  Do you have first hand knowledge?  Where is the data on that?

 

Joking aside, he is just as entitled to his speculation based on reasoning and logic as you are.  This particular thing is not easy to discern but depending on who you are, and how you interpret him, he is either whining (and exaggerating) about ye olden days or he is your patron saint of roll backs.

Edited May 23 by clevited

[Ashley Schaeffer]

18 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Again th

Yeah man.  It applies to everyone that swings fast.  The 30 yr old guys just as much as the youngsters.

I can’t change the narrative or bias you’ve built around this.  I’ve refuted a most of what you presented with some sort of data or deductive logic around strokes gained and your response is yeah, but I just think he’s got it out for the younger guys who swing faster then me.  (Regardless of clubhead speed, he was 17th in driving distance last year.  Better than 92% of the field - he’s not slow, and in fact he’s longer now than in 2003)

 

agree to disagree.

 

Fair enough.  But, he had a lower driving accuracy percentage in 2023 than in 2003.  Thems the numbers.  I tried to meet you in the middle by saying I understand why players might err to one side on purpose but noted that it isn't new, because it's not.  They did it back then as well.  Now, if I had the ability to just point and shoot the driver as far as I could, I certainly would.  Fact is: nobody can.  So, again, it's odd for someone to say how easy it is to hit a driver accurately than it was "back in the day" to not hit it as accurately as he did "back in the day".  

Edited May 23 by Ashley Schaeffer

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I mean, did you ask him what he meant exactly?  Do you have first hand knowledge?  Where is the data on that?

 

Joking aside, he is just as entitled to his speculation based on reasoning and logic as you are.  This particular thing is not easy to discern but depending on who you are, and how you interpret him, he is either whining (and exaggerating) about ye olden days or he is your patron saint of roll backs.

No, I did not ask him.

 

But I did hear the context in which he made those comments during the podcast he made them.

Nothing he said leads to bias against younger faster athletes.  He acknowledge the professional golfer is changing.  In fact he was praising how great the athletes are becoming (Gordon Sargent was the example he spoke about and how is effortless speed is amazing). He wants to continue to see golfers get more athletic.

 

[Pnwpingi210]

28 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

Fair enough.  But, he had a lower driving accuracy percentage in 2023 than in 2003.  Thems the numbers.  I tried to meet you in the middle by saying I understand why players might err to one side on purpose but noted that it isn't new, because it's not.  They did it back then as well.  Now, if I had the ability to just point and shoot the driver as far as I could, I certainly would.  Fact is: nobody can.  So, again, it's odd for someone to say how easy it is to hit a driver accurately than it was "back in the day" to not hit it as accurately as he did "back in the day".  

We agree he hits less fairways in 2023 vs 2003

 

We disagree that stat means he hits it more offline in relation to his target in 2023 vs 2003.

 

Edited May 23 by Pnwpingi210

[Ashley Schaeffer]

40 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

We agree he hits less fairways in 2023 vs 2003

 

We disagree that stat means he hits it more offline in relation to his target in 2023 vs 2003.

 

I wonder if he and his caddie have considered the strategy of swinging 130 and aiming at fairways.  With today's driver, it should be easy enough.  I have to take his word because I'm not in his position.  

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

I wonder if he and his caddie have considered the strategy of swinging 130 and aiming at fairways.  With today's driver, it should be easy enough.  I have to take his word because I'm not in his position.  

Strawman

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Strawman

Actually if a player is going to make extraordinary claims about how easy a club is to hit, they should be able to back it up with their own performance if they can't otherwise provide data supporting their assertion. 

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Actually if a player is going to make extraordinary claims about how easy a club is to hit, they should be able to back it up with their own performance if they can't otherwise provide data supporting their assertion. 

What’s extraordinary with what Adam said?  
 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Strawman

Incorrect.  A strawman argument requires a refutation of an argument with a different argument than the one at issue.  I'm not arguing at all, and merely questioning Scott's strategy given his statement(s).  

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

We agree he hits less fairways in 2023 vs 2003

 

We disagree that stat means he hits it more offline in relation to his target in 2023 vs 2003.

 

 

You think AS aims for the rough?  Or that fairways are narrower?  If the latter, perhaps a comparison of overall Tour averages for those years might shed some light.

[Golfnutgalen]

57 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

What’s extraordinary with what Adam said?  
 

 

Right??

 

Adam Scott said in more words or less that modern drivers are easier to hit. There is nothing controversial in that statement. 

[Pnwpingi210]

46 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

You think AS aims for the rough?  Or that fairways are narrower?  If the latter, perhaps a comparison of overall Tour averages for those years might shed some light.

I don’t know where Adam aims.

 

I don’t know if the fairways are narrower, or faster with more rollout today than they were is 2003. I Asked the same questions.

 

The original discussion was Adam doesn’t hit it as straight today as he did in 2003 based on accuracy percentage (fairways hit).  I said there are a couple factors we do know that impact this, based on how that poster is measuring his ability to hit a ball straight.
 

We do know that tour strategy has changed in the last 20 years and players now know that it’s more advantageous to hit the ball further, even if it’s in the rough as long as it avoids a hazard.  This places less of a premium on having their ball in the fairway and more distance as long as they avoid the hazard. This is a generally  accepted principal in professional golf and executed by golfer to various degrees (we even see players aim for a neighboring fairway to hit the closer to their hole while maintaining a good approach angle into a he green, this does not count as a fairway hit, but it’s their target.  Bryon driving over the water at bay hill is another example. He didn’t care if he landed in the rough since he was 100 yards closer than we would have been with if he too the approach his peers took)

 

We also know that Adam’s hitting the ball 14 yards farther now than he was 2003.  This means his dispersion circle will be larger than it was when he was 14 yards shorter while maintaining the same ability to manage launch direction.  I don’t explain this well, but we do have some that are well versed in math that could explain or your could read some of the work by Sasho McKenzie that talks about it. 

 

Edited May 23 by Pnwpingi210

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

What’s extraordinary with what Adam said?  
 

That driver is the easiest club in the bag to hit. Er, what we have been talking about for the last couple pages.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That driver is the easiest club in the bag to hit. Er, what we have been talking about for the last couple pages.

And what is the extraordinary about that?  
 

You may disagree with his opinion, but it’s not an extraordinary claim as it relates to modern professional golf.

 

 

[Archimedes65]

But if the driver has gotten so much easier to hit, why hasn’t AS been able to remain accurate while hitting the ball longer over the past 20 years?  He’s not saying it’s the same, he’s saying it’s much easier.  If that’s true, then picking up 14 yards and being just as accurate should have been easily possible.  (Side note; why are we talking about AS, as he’s only won once in the last 7-1/2 years?)