The classical swing, a force and loading analysis

[chipa]

I am a graduate engineer and started playing golf at 30 years old. I have tried to apply engineering principals that I learned to the golf swing over the years but it has proven to be difficult. However, due to a severe back injury and being in my mid 50's I started experimenting with different techniques as explained by Bobby Jones, Mike Austin, Rocco Mediate, Manueal de La Torres among others. I also looked at Walter Hagen's and John Daly's swing. This approach allowed led me to start to recognize the forces in the golf swing, something that had eluded me for a long time.

 

Nonetheless, the purpose of this thread is to look at the Classical Swing loading and/or sequence, which I also was able to identify after trying so many swing types.

 

From my perception the classical swing focus at address is an athletic stance and the left shoulder and lat muscles ready to adduct. Due to the large muscles being involved in the left shoulder adduction most pros with very few exceptions start the swing with the left arm very straight extending down from the shoulder(force) and the left shoulder rolled in slightly on the body. Nonetheless, in order for the body to maintain this position early in the backswing, the hips must turn with the shoulders initially, this allows the pro to start to adduct the left shoulder down initially and because of the large muscles involved naturally the body will need to resist, which are the legs. Since force is directional the shoulders need to be turned sufficiently in order that the left shoulder being directed down and back is resisted by the lateral connection of both legs and hips initially. The hips will turn in response also due to the connection to the large muscles of the back. This concept is like pushing on a revolving door when the door is perpendicular to the center of rotation, until the door turns enough it won't move as the force exerted on the door is resisted by the door's axle. However, once the door has turned sufficiently the force applied on  the door will cause it to rotate. Thus once a pros shoulders have turned sufficiently he can then start to adduct the left shoulder farther down then back while both legs resist until reaching the limit of the pros individual elastic ability. From there with the legs, hips and left shoulder adduction there is a great deal of force generated, thus the pro is able to achieve high clubhead speeds. Furthermore, due to the pros releasing the loading muscles and tendons on the downswing this creates a direction that any side forces due to hand manipulation will be resisted by the nature of the sum of forces along its particular vector(ie the forces generated by the hands not in the same direction "vector" will have less influence on the direction of the club due to the large muscles "mass" being involved), thus enabling a pro to have a high level of accuracy.

 

However, as I have found out that initially turning the hips and shoulders together requires the lower back to be relaxed until the weight is shifted to the right side as the left shoulder starts to push down then back with significant force. However, this I have learned hurts my lower back which is weak due to a complicated surgery many years ago. Also, I have learned that the right side must be able to start relaxed then tense in response to the left shoulder being adducted down then back. However, this has proven difficult to do on demand as well. It's like "throwing" the left side initially to start the swing then "catching" it with the right side. I feel this is the main disadvantage of the Classical Swing takeaway that makes it impossible for 99% of adult golfers to do on demand. Pro golfers with almost no statistically significant exceptions start golf at a very young age when the mind can comprehend the forces involved. As we get older this becomes virtually impossible.

 

Holding the legs still and learning to not adduct the left shoudler down and away "initially" is a way to keep the legs, hips and lower back resisting from the beginning. Delaying the left shoulder adduction is Freddy Couples technique and of course the "Shirtsleeve Swing" technique as well. The only real difference is that I recommend doing a forward press, which I feel cures pulling the right hand and/or shoulder back initially, something myself and my friend have a tendency to do.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by chipa

[wagolfer7]

Just saying.....this doesn't look like it feels too good on the back.  

 

 

[chipa]

52 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

Just saying.....this doesn't look like it feels too good on the back.  

 

 

 

First, thanks for the concern. Just to let you know golf isn't that important to me actually. I'm a father of 3 young ladies and they need me as two are in college and one still in high school. In other words if i can't find a swing that works I'll quit, it's that simple its the right thing to do too.

 

Nonetheless, if you look closely at the stills above please note the angle of my spine compared to my left thigh, and also the same of the pro. My left knees is considerably more bent which clearly demonstrates that my lower back tilt is less than the pro.

 

Furthermore, I can assure you the Classic one piece takeaway was very hard on my lower back and the typical reaction after a bucket of range balls was tingling in my feet and legs and deep soreness for days in my lower back. But with this technique my back feels fresh, only my legs are more tired now.

 

Take care buddy. Give this a try it's very simple and your own results will tell you if it's valid or not, don't take my word for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wagolfer7]

6 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

First, thanks for the concern. Just to let you know golf isn't that important to me actually. I'm a father of 3 young ladies and they need me as two are in college and one still in high school. In other words if i can't find a swing that works I'll quit, it's that simple its the right thing to do too.

 

Nonetheless, if you look closely at the stills above please note the angle of my spine compared to my left thigh, and also the same of the pro. My left knees is considerably more bent which clearly demonstrates that my lower back tilt is less than the pro.

 

Furthermore, I can assure you the Classic one piece takeaway was very hard on my lower back and the typical reaction after a bucket of range balls was tingling in my feet and legs and deep soreness for days in my lower back. But with this technique my back feels fresh, only my legs are more tired now.

 

Take care buddy. Give this a try it's very simple and your own results will tell you if it's valid or not, don't take my word for it

 

 

 

Golf shouldn't be that important to anyone.  We're just hobbyist that enjoy sharing and discussing things about the game.  In my view your swing has a lot more tilt on the lower back.  With 3 threads going on about your new swing method - just wanted to share a different perspective on it.  I'm glad it's working for you.  And appreciate that you are trying to help others.  Personally I'll stick with trying to model guys that take 1000's a swings a week and don't have back issues.  Good luck with your golf journey.    

 

 

[chipa]

4 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Golf shouldn't be that important to anyone.  We're just hobbyist that enjoy sharing and discussing things about the game.  In my view your swing has a lot more tilt on the lower back.  With 3 threads going on about your new swing method - just wanted to share a different perspective on it.  I'm glad it's working for you.  And appreciate that you are trying to help others.  Personally I'll stick with trying to model guys that take 1000's a swings a week and don't have back issues.  Good luck with your golf journey.    

 

 

 

Thanks for your input and well wishes. From what I'm seeing my spine maybe more tilted in respect to the ground but not to my lower body. This is no doubt partly due to having 3 fused vertebrae and two metal rods the don't allow me to bend my lower back like normal people.

[Chunkitgood]

If you’re saying tilt your shoulders before turning them both in backswing and downswing, I tend to agree.

 

You may be able to appreciate the concept of the swing as rotation of the upper body around a horizontal axis near the top of the body, as well as rotation around a more vertical axis, as opposed to the more common idea that the upper body motion in the frontal plane is a translation.

[chipa]

47 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

If you’re saying tilt your shoulders before turning them both in backswing and downswing, I tend to agree.

 

You may be able to appreciate the concept of the swing as rotation of the upper body around a horizontal axis near the top of the body, as well as rotation around a more vertical axis, as opposed to the more common idea that the upper body motion in the frontal plane is a translation.

 

I haven't really looked at the specifics of the mechanics of my downswing, but I do know that my spine is tilted through impact. Our method is dependent on the loading and unloading of the legs and hips and the left shoulder and side, so the downswing is merely unloading this tension, first the legs then the back and left shoulder with the right hand adding power very late. I no longer actively try to release my hands though, that's built into the mechanics, which include the forward press.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, chipa said:

My left knees is considerably more bent

 

Which generally puts more strain on your lower back.

[chipa]

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Which generally puts more strain on your lower back.

 

That's may be the case based on your personal experience. I changed my swing because of back pain and am not interested in playing with pain, so no my spine angle doesn't hurt my lower back. Then again my lower back is "actively tense" from the setup, to the takeaway, backswing and downswing. This was not the case for the classic method that I used to use. The same technique I use to protect my lower back - "preloading" the muscles and tendons is common in physical fitness, especially for older persons to protect their joints.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, chipa said:

That's may be the case based on your personal experience.

 

No, it's based on way more than "personal experience."

[chipa]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No, it's based on way more than "personal experience."

 

Ok, I understand your point of view.

 

Nonetheless, my point about my spine angle being almost the same as my legs due to my left leg being bent at impact has the result that this move does not hurt me. I changed my swing to eliminate back pain after all.

 

Also, this only makes sense from a biological/medical point of view. After all if we tilt our upper and lower body the same the spine angle has not changed it's the same as if we were standing normally.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, chipa said:

Also, this only makes sense from a biological/medical point of view. After all if we tilt our upper and lower body the same the spine angle has not changed it's the same as if we were standing normally.

This is not accurate, no.

 

Are you a biomechanist? Back expert? Medical doctor of any kind?

 

You think you’ve found a good swing for you. That’s about all you can realistically say.

[Trippels]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

This is not accurate, no.

 

Are you a biomechanist? Back expert? Medical doctor of any kind?

 

You think you’ve found a good swing for you. That’s about all you can realistically say.

No shortage of engineers with an overinflated sense of competence in areas outside their field. 

I should know, I'm a graduate engineer

[Hawkeye77]

Works for you, mostly the analysis makes little sense and not sure what the point of that is (plenty of actual experts with plenty of stuff out there easy to find that may or may not explain whatever a "classical" golf swing is - yours is not "classic", IMO).  Not sure why we need three different threads celebrating your "method" but the main thing is it works for you so I guess you are excited about it.  If it works, you should be so enjoy it for what it is but not seeing tablets on the hill. 😉 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[chipa]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

This is not accurate, no.

 

Are you a biomechanist? Back expert? Medical doctor of any kind?

 

You think you’ve found a good swing for you. That’s about all you can realistically say.

 

Just to clarify my position I am referring to the angle of the spine bending. Are we talking about the same thing?

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Trippels said:

No shortage of engineers with an overinflated sense of competence in areas outside their field. 

I should know, I'm a graduate engineer

 

I have applied standard engineering practice we both learned, something no doubt you like me employ on a daily basis that makes our life easier, from homes and business to roads, bridges, cars and planes.

 

You have also probably learned like me that theories are proposed all of the time. My theory is no different but in addition I have attempted to provide some proof as well.

 

 

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Works for you, mostly the analysis makes little sense and not sure what the point of that is (plenty of actual experts with plenty of stuff out there easy to find that may or may not explain whatever a "classical" golf swing is - yours is not "classic", IMO).  Not sure why we need three different threads celebrating your "method" but the main thing is it works for you so I guess you are excited about it.  If it works, you should be so enjoy it for what it is but not seeing tablets on the hill. 😉 

 

The Classical swing I am referring to is the one piece takeaway that most pros employ. Yes, the term classical is subjective I should have made that more clear.

 

Also, the point of my threads are to have people try this method if nothing else works for them or if they have back pain like I did. All of our technique is explained in detail.

[Hawkeye77]

15 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

The Classical swing I am referring to is the one piece takeaway that most pros employ.

Really?

[chipa]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

Really?

 

Maybe I should have stated "a classical takeaway"?

[Zitlow]

@chipa Is this essentially what  you're doing, loading and unloading? In addition to being a lawyer Bobby Jones had an engineering degree from GA Tech. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Soloman1]

3 hours ago, chipa said:

The Classical swing I am referring to is the one piece takeaway that most pros employ.

 

The most prevalent takeaway now is the opposite of the downswing sequence - club, arms, torso, pelvis.

 

The one-piece takeaway now is mostly fried chicken from the drive-thru lane.

 

You may not see it in video, but you do in motion capture.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

@chipa Is this essentially what  you're doing, loading and unloading? In addition to being a lawyer Bobby Jones had an engineering degree from GA Tech. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, that is a great explantation of what we are trying to do in our backswing.

 

I also learned about delayed left shoulder adduction from starting to look at Bobby Jones swing, as he started with his left arm bent, then Rocco Mediate's and later Walter Hagen's. One thing that always fascinated me in the backswing of pros has been the action of the hands when the left shoulder adducts fully at some point in the backswing looking at the swing from the rear, although I didn't understand why for many years. This was something I never saw in amateur swings when I played golf on the weekends, which I estimate to be around 1000 rounds over 15 years mostly as a walk on on public courses. When I found Walter Hagen's swing in slow motion and good quality I made the connection in this feature of pros swings to actively extending the upper left arm away from the body on the backswing.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by chipa

[RoyalTroon]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:10 PM, chipa said:

My left knees is considerably more bent

 

Too many to list elite players operating from a firm, but bent, lead leg.  The good Dr. M digging deep.    Such a serene game...

 

 

 

[iacas]

10 hours ago, chipa said:

Just to clarify my position I am referring to the angle of the spine bending. Are we talking about the same thing?

 

We are. But you've got three topics all discussing the same thing, and it's a sample size of one with what I suspect is specious data.

I'd really, really push back hard on the left knee being bent late in the follow-through as "good for your back." Virtually nobody does that. I've talked with back experts, and more so… I've talked with other great instructors who have studied the back with some experts in the field, and at no point was "keep the front knee bent" ever a thing. If anything, they'd tell you to extend it.

 

When someone does a "morning stretch" (the spine goes into extension), that's often relieving back pain. That's not what this is.

 

9 hours ago, chipa said:

Also, the point of my threads are to have people try this method if nothing else works for them or if they have back pain like I did. All of our technique is explained in detail.

 

IMO nobody should "try" this method. I'm glad it works for you, but… oy.

[chipa]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

We are. But you've got three topics all discussing the same thing, and it's a sample size of one with what I suspect is specious data.

I'd really, really push back hard on the left knee being bent late in the follow-through as "good for your back." Virtually nobody does that. I've talked with back experts, and more so… I've talked with other great instructors who have studied the back with some experts in the field, and at no point was "keep the front knee bent" ever a thing. If anything, they'd tell you to extend it.

 

When someone does a "morning stretch" (the spine goes into extension), that's often relieving back pain. That's not what this is.

 

 

IMO nobody should "try" this method. I'm glad it works for you, but… oy.

 

A lot of good players have had their left knee bent at impact like Moe Norman.

 

Golf isn't that important to me I'm an engineer paying my bills like anyone else I wanted to share what I learned first hand with a fused back. Furthermore, my friend Javier no longer has back pain either. Maybe its the preloading of the tendons and muscles which is quite common in physical training for older people.

Edited May 19, 2023 by chipa

[chipa]

4 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

Too many to list elite players operating from a firm, but bent, lead leg.  The good Dr. M digging deep.    Such a serene game...

 

 

 

 

Add Moe Norman, Jack Nicklaus  and Tom Weiskopf to the number of world class players that had their left leg bent noticeably at impact.

 

 

 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, chipa said:

A lot of good players have had their left knee bent at impact like Moe Norman.

 

I didn't say "at impact." I said "I'd really, really push back hard on the left knee being bent late in the follow-through…".

 

12 minutes ago, chipa said:

Golf isn't that important to me I'm an engineer paying my bills like anyone else I wanted to share what I learned first hand with a fused back.

 

Good luck. I think if what you were doing was a "good" way to go, Tour players with bad backs would have adopted it. Instead, you don't really see it at all.

 

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

Add Moe Norman, Jack Nicklaus  and Tom Weiskopf to the number of world class players that had their left leg bent noticeably at impact.

 

Now look at players from this century. There are reasons we moved away from the big reverse C type finish. One of those reasons: they're not great for your back.

 

Again, good luck, man. Stay healthy.

[chipa]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I didn't say "at impact." I said "I'd really, really push back hard on the left knee being bent late in the follow-through…".

 

 

Good luck. I think if what you were doing was a "good" way to go, Tour players with bad backs would have adopted it. Instead, you don't really see it at all.

 

 

Now look at players from this century. There are reasons we moved away from the big reverse C type finish. One of those reasons: they're not great for your back.

 

Again, good luck, man. Stay healthy.

 

BTW, I'm not promoting my downswing position. My friend Javier isn't tilted like I am. All I have told him is to have his legs resisting flexibly at address and push off his right side to start the swing. My left knee is not very strong and I can't bend my lower back due to the metal rods hence my left leg bending. Each golfer may have a slightly different impact position and that's fine as far as I can tell.

[northgolf]

You need to define "classical swing" before you start pontificating on it, or the detritus here will run you down rabbit holes (Moe for instance).

 

For me, the classic swing is the 1920s/30s and earlier.  Think Bobby Jones, Earnest Jones. There is a significant difference between them, but they both emphasized the feel of freely swinging.

 

Given your pre-existing back injury, I question your physical ability to execute a classical swing. It is difficult to remain tensionless/relaxed through a swing when you know you are nearing movements that cause pain.  This is not meant as a criticism of you or your endeavor,  only a caution that in the interest of enjoyable pain free rounds you may have to adapt classical swings concepts to what you can happily do.

[chipa]

15 minutes ago, northgolf said:

You need to define "classical swing" before you start pontificating on it, or the detritus here will run you down rabbit holes (Moe for instance).

 

For me, the classic swing is the 1920s/30s and earlier.  Think Bobby Jones, Earnest Jones. There is a significant difference between them, but they both emphasized the feel of freely swinging.

 

Given your pre-existing back injury, I question your physical ability to execute a classical swing. It is difficult to remain tensionless/relaxed through a swing when you know you are nearing movements that cause pain.  This is not meant as a criticism of you or your endeavor,  only a caution that in the interest of enjoyable pain free rounds you may have to adapt classical swings concepts to what you can happily do.

 

I appreciate you concern, thanks. Nonetheless, this swing method has eliminated my back pain believe it or not. Just like preloading in physical fitness protects joints it also protects my lower back. It just turns out this technique also generates easy club speed as demonstrated by myself and Javier my friend who can hit 105 mph with his version of this technique(little side bend).