Putting Stroke Mover(s)?

[Anthony Stevens]

Hi - I watched something recently on YouTube (may have been a Be Better Golf video) where David Orr was talking about putting "drivers" or "movers" or something similar - basically, where does the energy come from in a putting stroke. He mentioned a difference between shoulder-driven stroke vs. a torso (ribcage) driven stroke. He also mentions trail hand mover I think, but I am not on board with trail hand at all.

So, I've been experimenting a bit on the carpet and am finding that my default is a blend of a little bit shoulder, a little bit torso.

What SOUNDS great is if I could move to a torso-only stroke, keeping the shoulders' orientation to the torso still/quiet while the ribcage rotates a bit back and through. My thinking here is twofold:

 

1) The torso is less likely to "yip" than the smaller shoulder/arm muscles

2) Keeping a single mover instead of a blend of two may be easier to train, in the same way as you can drill the hips to stay perfectly still.

 

Initially, trying a torso-only stroke feels like I can get a good path but my distance control on longer putts is all over the place - I know I am thinking too much about the stroke mechanics at the moment. But, if this were in theory the right approach, I could drill it and make it unconscious and get my speed control back.

 

What do you think? Anyone experiment with different movers in the putting stroke and have any feedback? Which do you prefer? Any tour pros that show a definite bias toward one or the other?

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, Anthony Stevens said:

1) The torso is less likely to "yip" than the smaller shoulder/arm muscles

 

I don't know that it's true. The hands are still holding the club, thus, they can still "yip" even if they're not the primary movers. It may be a matter of how much "less likely" is… is it 40% less likely… or 2%?

 

I putt without moving my shoulders or ribs much. It's a bit more of an "elbows orbit my body" stroke. So what moves the putter in my stroke? My "arms" I guess?

[Anthony Stevens]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't know that it's true. The hands are still holding the club, thus, they can still "yip" even if they're not the primary movers. It may be a matter of how much "less likely" is… is it 40% less likely… or 2%?

That's one of the things I'd like to know - maybe someone who has done a deep dive will come back and say "yes, I absolutely still yipped with a torso driven stroke" or, alternatively, "no, yips went away 100% when I moved to a torso-driven stroke". Or, probably, all of the above lol.

 

I should note that I don't suffer from yips, but it would be a good theoretical benefit. And it makes common sense (to me anyway) that large muscles would yip less than small muscles.

 

Quote

I putt without moving my shoulders or ribs much. It's a bit more of an "elbows orbit my body" stroke. So what moves the putter in my stroke? My "arms" I guess?

 

I would call this a shoulder driven stroke. If a fixed point on your torso, say, your sternum, maintains its relationship to the ball as your elbows move, then your upper arms have to be moving in the shoulder sockets, right?

 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Anthony Stevens said:

That's one of the things I'd like to know - maybe someone who has done a deep dive will come back and say "yes, I absolutely still yipped with a torso driven stroke" or, alternatively, "no, yips went away 100% when I moved to a torso-driven stroke". Or, probably, all of the above lol.

 

I should note that I don't suffer from yips, but it would be a good theoretical benefit. And it makes common sense (to me anyway) that large muscles would yip less than small muscles.

 

A theoretical benefit… that I'd put pretty low on the list. Some people have gotten the driver yips. Doesn't mean you can live in fear of not doing something with your driver swing because it might increase how "yippy" you might be some day.

 

11 minutes ago, Anthony Stevens said:

I would call this a shoulder driven stroke. If a fixed point on your torso, say, your sternum, maintains its relationship to the ball as your elbows move, then your upper arms have to be moving in the shoulder sockets, right?

 

I wouldn't. My shoulders aren't moving, really: the ball head of my humerus is moving. My clavicle, shoulder blade, etc. aren't doing much.

[Anthony Stevens]

Thinking about the comment from @iacas a bit more, it seems like there is a difference between a shoulder vs. an arms stroke.

 

If you don't move your collarbones or scapulae (sp?) as your putter moves, then maybe that is more of an arms stroke. The shoulder joint stays pretty fixed.

 

If your collarbones/scapulae move, then maybe that is a shoulder stroke.

Fine distinction.

 

What I'm most interested in is trying a torso-only movement - no shoulder movement, no arm movement relative to the torso.

 

[Anthony Stevens]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

A theoretical benefit… that I'd put pretty low on the list. Some people have gotten the driver yips. Doesn't mean you can live in fear of not doing something with your driver swing because it might increase how "yippy" you might be some day.

Despite my original post, I'm really not worried about the yips.

 

What I want to explore is how useful it would be to have a single "mover" because it seems like you could then practice keeping everything BUT that one mover perfectly still in the putting stroke, similarly to how you can put a stick through your belt loops to watch for movement to work on keeping your hips perfectly still.

 

Doing a blend of shoulders/torso feels natural, but I'm always looking for better approaches.

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, Anthony Stevens said:

Despite my original post, I'm really not worried about the yips.

 

What I want to explore is how useful it would be to have a single "mover" because it seems like you could then practice keeping everything BUT that one mover perfectly still in the putting stroke, similarly to how you can put a stick through your belt loops to watch for movement to work on keeping your hips perfectly still.

 

Doing a blend of shoulders/torso feels natural, but I'm always looking for better approaches.

 

Interesting points.

 

Seems to me there are 2 (somewhat ?) opposite theories at work here.

 

More body mass, more strength, more stability, therefore suggesting, properly I believe, that the fingers are weakest, then wrists, then arms, then shoulders, torso, and finally lower body. ALL of which are active in the full swing.

 

But we are talking about a putting stroke, which, of course, requires the least energy to move the ball.

 

Then we have the "fewer moving parts, the more likely/often one will make "perfect" contact". Ah haaa,,,,,,

 

So, it would seem to me going "down" to the torso moving the putter, is going a bit too far vis-a-vis keeping the moving pieces at a minimum.

 

Therefore, it seems to me that, excluding the fingers and wrists (the parts most likely to "fail"), the arms or the shoulders should be the main mover; keeping the moving parts to a minimum while still having as much stability as required to control the club.

 

Personally I struggle with shoulder or arms. I try to concentrate on rocking the shoulders as I feel that gives me the most consistency and control. I sometimes "forget" and use only the arms. Grrrrr......

 

And then occasionally, I feel in my feet some weight shift and want to rap myself over the head with the putter - once I calm down.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Anthony Stevens said:

What I'm most interested in is trying a torso-only movement - no shoulder movement, no arm movement relative to the torso.

I’m not a big fan of a torso stroke because your neck has to rotate the other direction at the same rate to keep your eyes steady.

[Anthony Stevens]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

I’m not a big fan of a torso stroke because your neck has to rotate the other direction at the same rate to keep your eyes steady.

Great point

[jonsnow]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

I’m not a big fan of a torso stroke because your neck has to rotate the other direction at the same rate to keep your eyes steady.

When I've tried to put by rocking my shoulders, my head moves like a teeter totter. I've always putted my best when I focus on swinging my forearms along the path. I guess that would be an arms stroke? If my shoulders move a bit, that's OK.

[Fuscinator]

In my view, distance control, regarding the putting stroke itself, is a matter of calibration. If you've just changed your stroke, especially to one you've not tried before, it's too new to expect the kind of calibration you need for varying speed. 

[MelloYello]

4 hours ago, Anthony Stevens said:

Hi - I watched something recently on YouTube (may have been a Be Better Golf video) where David Orr was talking about putting "drivers" or "movers" or something similar - basically, where does the energy come from in a putting stroke. He mentioned a difference between shoulder-driven stroke vs. a torso (ribcage) driven stroke. He also mentions trail hand mover I think, but I am not on board with trail hand at all.

So, I've been experimenting a bit on the carpet and am finding that my default is a blend of a little bit shoulder, a little bit torso.

What SOUNDS great is if I could move to a torso-only stroke, keeping the shoulders' orientation to the torso still/quiet while the ribcage rotates a bit back and through. My thinking here is twofold:

 

1) The torso is less likely to "yip" than the smaller shoulder/arm muscles

2) Keeping a single mover instead of a blend of two may be easier to train, in the same way as you can drill the hips to stay perfectly still.

 

Initially, trying a torso-only stroke feels like I can get a good path but my distance control on longer putts is all over the place - I know I am thinking too much about the stroke mechanics at the moment. But, if this were in theory the right approach, I could drill it and make it unconscious and get my speed control back.

 

What do you think? Anyone experiment with different movers in the putting stroke and have any feedback? Which do you prefer? Any tour pros that show a definite bias toward one or the other?

 

Instead of thinking of the prime mover as the engine driving the stroke it might be more helpful to think of it as the thing your brain is focusing on manipulating in order to get the putter moving. 

 

The "engine" analogy kind of implies that the prime mover is doing something while the other things are static, stationary or not involved. All of that would be wrong. All things are going to move during the stroke.

 

If the putter moves, so too must the hands and that requires arm movement which forces shoulder movement, etc. The prime mover is the thing you choose to focus on during the stroke.

 

I found it significantly more interesting what Orr was talking about in terms of the trail wrist angle. I agree with him that controlling (maintaining) face alignment through the stroke and delivering it through impact with as little rotation as possible should be the goal. What a good putter does is keep the face square to the arc and deliver it very squarely through the impact area. 

 

If you let your wrist(s) break down, you'll be a bad putter because you'll lose control of the face. That much is just about guaranteed and TBH, from my perspective it's the basis of having a technically sound putting stroke -- mastering face control through the hitting zone. 

 

 

Another thing I like about the video is practicing close enough to the hole that you really will get upset with a miss. When we practice at 10-, 15- or 20-ft we aren't offended by misses. Practicing from 2-, 3- and 4-ft implies we really should make everything once we know the break. Too rarely are golfers going out and practicing those "must make" putts. 

 

 

.

Edited June 2, 2023 by MelloYello

[RoyalTroon]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

All things are going to move during the stroke.

 

One simple sentence closes an entire topic.  Classic!

 

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, MelloYello said:

All things are going to move during the stroke.

 

Not sure how you're going to justify that, but might be entertained watching you try.

[RoyalTroon]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Not sure how you're going to justify that, but might be entertained watching you try.

 

 

[Soloman1]

Now I heard there was a secret grip

that players use to stop the yip

But you don’t really want to make putts

do ya?

 

It starts like this…

 

(With apologies to Leonard Cohen)

Edited June 3, 2023 by Soloman1

[MelloYello]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Not sure how you're going to justify that, but might be entertained watching you try.

 

I appreciate your insight(s) as a golf coach but FYI, I'm putting you on ignore because you seem to respond to a lot of my posts in ways that are not helpful to the threads. 

 

I don't come here to debate other users in a t**-for-tat way, rather I want to share my own insight with people who are legitimately curious and trying to improve. If it helps them, great. If it doesn't they can cast it aside as bad advice. I've got no ego that way. 

 

But I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else. If my posts offend you and your teaching methods, please ignore me as well. 

 

Either way, I won't be responding in the future based on what I've seen as a pattern of behavior that does not help GolfWRX.com and it's community. 

 

Thanks,

Mello

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

I appreciate your insight(s) as a golf coach but FYI, I'm putting you on ignore because you seem to respond to a lot of my posts in ways that are not helpful to the threads.

 

That's fine. You've been on the cusp of my ignore list for awhile. 😄 Your answer to how "everything" moves was likely to be the camel's back-breaking piece of straw.

 

45 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

I don't come here to debate other users in a t**-for-tat way, rather I want to share my own insight with people who are legitimately curious and trying to improve. If it helps them, great. If it doesn't they can cast it aside as bad advice. I've got no ego that way.

 

Nor do I, but I try not to say definitive statements like "all things are going to move during the putting stroke" unless I really have a lot of confidence that what I'm saying is true. I'm interested in debate and discussion. You're (seemingly) not interested in being challenged. Got it.

 

45 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

But I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else. If my posts offend you and your teaching methods, please ignore me as well.

 

They don't offend. I just don't think you know what you're talking about. 😉

 

45 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

Either way, I won't be responding in the future based on what I've seen as a pattern of behavior that does not help GolfWRX.com and it's community.

 

 

Guess I got the part about the straw right.

Edited June 3, 2023 by iacas
Clarity

[RoyalTroon]

59 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's fine. You've been on the cusp of my ignore list for awhile. 😄....

 

 

 

[nosil]

On 6/2/2023 at 12:12 PM, Anthony Stevens said:

 

What do you think? Anyone experiment with different movers in the putting stroke and have any feedback? Which do you prefer? Any tour pros that show a definite bias toward one or the other?

 

@bargolftaught me that there are multiple ways to power the putting stroke:

• Shoulders - which is what most people seem to think is the "right" way
• Arms around shoulders - Stan Utley is a model for this
• Left arm dominant - Dave Stockton teaches this approach
• Right Arm dominant - Tiger 

If you watch David Edel videos he talks about Radial and Linear - Radial is a shoulder dominant stroke ; Linear is an arms dominant stroke.   He also indicates that most pros are linear.