shoulders back at address

[Louis_Posture]

On 6/30/2023 at 2:25 AM, cac022 said:

I watched this recently from Dan Whittaker who talks about getting the shoulders backwards (from about 1:30).

I've always struggled with an inside takeaway and this has definitely helped. One of the few things set-up wise that I've never seen mentioned before. Maybe some folk don't need it, but it seems to be working for me thus far. Added benefit of my speed going up a bit after focusing on this.  

 

 

This is great stuff, thank you for posting the link. From the 2:30 mark the teaching pro demonstrates shoulders back and then explains how this proper posture naturally promotes sound rotation ad proper swing plane/path. 

At the 3:30 mark he describes how a Euro Tour player suffering from swing plane issues was helped by address posture technique improvement.

The most competent instructors absolutely spend their time teaching address technique (grip-posture-alignment) because they know these factors dictate the entire swing.

 

[Louis_Posture]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:35 AM, kowalgolf said:

I think I understand the OP. I'm long in the upper torso so when I address the ball I lower the club and upper torso at the same time and my shoulders move 5-6 inches closer to the ball. If I stand with the club vertically in front of me like Scottie Scheffler and just lower the club to the ball my shoulders don't move forward. I've been fighting this for 62 yrs. and to this day can't set up properly. Something so simple is very very hard for me.

 

Yes, the routine you're practicing is excellent. It's been taught for decades, both to help with address posture as well as promote the player achieving a reliably consistent distance-from-the-ball . 

In other words, when starting as you do tall , shoulders back , club held vertically in front of you, your subsequent bend from the hips (to get the club head to the ground) causes your arms to naturally hang from the shoulder sockets in a relaxed way, and the distance from the butt end of the golf grip to your belt buckle remains consistent throughout the bag.

[Chunkitgood]

On 6/29/2023 at 10:09 PM, iacas said:

 

 

Hmmmmm.

Usually, when I ask “Am crazy, or…?,”  I get ‘“You’re crazy.”  But, am I crazy or does this man have a fairly neutral spine with a touch of extra thoracic curvature, and some protraction in this right shoulder (at least)?

 

The problem with “shoulders back” is that if you actually position you shoulders back, it’s worse than the disease that it’s supposed to cure.  If you put your shoulders back you would extend your spine and retract your shoulders.

 

“Shoulders back” and “do not bend your thoracic spine too much” just don’t mean the same thing.  If you have your shoulders back you will not have bent your spine too much, but if you just don’t bend your spine too much you will not necessarily have your shoulders back.  Sort of like that that square and rectangle thing.  The latter includes the former, but not necessarily the reverse.

 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

From the 2:30 mark the teaching pro demonstrates shoulders back

 

And… Tour players don't really do that.

 

Have I seen players with their shoulders too far "in front" of them? Yes. But it's pretty rare. The demonstration in the video is at best an exaggeration: the Tiger photo I posted earlier doesn't have his shoulders "back." He'd have a hard time gripping the club without bending his elbows.

 

5 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

The most competent instructors absolutely spend their time teaching address technique (grip-posture-alignment) because they know these factors dictate the entire swing.

 

I talk about it… I don't know how much "time" I spend on it. Definitely single digits as a percentage. It's not super difficult, and again… it doesn't really "dictate" the entire swing as much as it seems like you're implying. Like I said before, you could set Rory or Scottie up in all sorts of screw ways… and they'd still hit the ball better than you or I.

 

1 minute ago, Chunkitgood said:

Usually, when I ask “Am crazy, or…?,”  I get ‘“You’re crazy.”  But, am I crazy or does this man have a fairly neutral spine with a touch of extra thoracic curvature, and some protraction in this right shoulder (at least)?

 

I don't know. I do know his shoulders aren't "back" there, though.

 

1 minute ago, Chunkitgood said:

The problem with “shoulders back” is that if you actually position you shoulders back, it’s worse than the disease that it’s supposed to cure.  If you put your shoulders back you would extend your spine and retract your shoulders.

 

Agreed.

 

1 minute ago, Chunkitgood said:

“Shoulders back” and “do not bend your thoracic spine too much” just don’t mean the same thing.

 

Agreed. They're two different things.

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

He'd have a hard time gripping the club without bending his elbows.

 

Shoulders back on the left. Shoulders rounded down/in slightly on the right < 2 seconds later.

 

 

I don't agree with the premise, either, that shoulders rounded forward make you roll the club or your arms around behind you. Heck, if your shoulders are rounded forward… they're more "in front of you" than when you have "shoulders back."

 

I also don't like his lumbar spine much in either of the photos above.

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by iacas

[Louis_Posture]

As written previously, it's obvious that to hold a golf club a person will have his/her shoulders in a somewhat forward position.

However, beginning the address process by standing tall with shoulders back  serves the function of a good proper posture starting point, and when the player bends from the waist to complete address position, his/her shoulders will have moved a bit forward. This is fine and about as good as a person can do. Competent instructors teach this.

In contrast, amateur players typically start by standing and or walking into a shot with shoulders scrunched forward . So, once they bend their upper body to get the club head to the ground, their shoulders are naturally even more forward, producing a horrible posture from which to try and make a golf swing.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

As written previously, it's obvious that to hold a golf club a person will have his/her shoulders in a somewhat forward position.

 

Right, so then let's get to the nut of it: what's the point of this topic, or of him demonstrating what he demonstrated in the video?

 

16 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

However, beginning the address process by standing tall with shoulders back  serves the function of a good proper posture starting point

 

That's not what you said. And if you did, it was at best unclear.

 

Who cares how you get into the correct posture (which I'd argue has your shoulders rolled forward slightly, not back)? I don't think standing tall with your shoulders back is a requirement at all.

 

16 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

and when the player bends from the waist to complete address position, his/her shoulders will have moved a bit forward.

 

Or… when they try to grip the club with both hands and not bending both elbows to reach around their chest. 😉

 

16 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Competent instructors teach this.

 

Statements like this don't go over well.

 

16 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

In contrast, amateur players typically start by standing and or walking into a shot with shoulders scrunched forward.

 

I disagree.

[Albatross Dreamer]

4 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Usually, when I ask “Am crazy, or…?,”  I get ‘“You’re crazy.”  But, am I crazy or does this man have a fairly neutral spine with a touch of extra thoracic curvature, and some protraction in this right shoulder (at least)?

 

The problem with “shoulders back” is that if you actually position you shoulders back, it’s worse than the disease that it’s supposed to cure.  If you put your shoulders back you would extend your spine and retract your shoulders.

 

“Shoulders back” and “do not bend your thoracic spine too much” just don’t mean the same thing.  If you have your shoulders back you will not have bent your spine too much, but if you just don’t bend your spine too much you will not necessarily have your shoulders back.  Sort of like that that square and rectangle thing.  The latter includes the former, but not necessarily the reverse.

 

Wouldn't even say that's extra thoracic curve, is right within normal. Part of the problem is most the population is either extended or hunched. What many people don't realize is the scapula is a curved bone. When you consider the t-spine is supposed to have a slight curve, pulling the shoulder blades back is going to mess up the scapula and t-spine working optimally together.

EDIT: I'm referring primarily to pulling them back and keeping them there, not as part of dynamic movement that may occur throughout the swing.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Albatross Dreamer

[golfarb1]

Obviously this is a golf forum and the question is about the position of the shoulders  . But for the vast majority of golfers who spend time considerable time sitting , poor posture over a long period of time makes it physically impossible to achieve the correct golf posture .I argue that posters on this subject are putting the cart before the horse . To improve golf posture , golfers first need to assess their sitting posture and go to someone( not a golf pro)  , who can help improve your sitting posture. Then the goal should progress to good standing posture before attempting bending to the ball. 

The enclosed video shows the difference between good sitting posture and bad sitting posture 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by golfarb1

[Nard_S]

 

 

 

I have poor upper back posture, get grief from chiro about it. Stems from too much mid back curvature. Find higher core strength helps that but money is strengthening trap muscles too. So I do what OP does but it's with contraction of trap muscles (best from conditioning) and I leave shoulders neutral. If I have ignored gym, which I have, I can look very slumpy and overly relaxed with shoulders at setup. In that situation , pre-tighten traps a bit in setup and it does what OP advocates without excess shoulder tension.

 

You want great posture with relaxed shoulders. To me, chest will feel more "up" than "out".  Spine is straighter and balance gets better.

 

 

[phizzy30]

Just now, Nard_S said:

 

 

 

I have poor upper back posture, get grief from chiro about it. Stems from too much mid back curvature. Find higher core strength helps that but money is strengthening trap muscles too. So I do what OP does but it's with contraction of trap muscles (best from conditioning) and I leave shoulders neutral. If I have ignored gym, which I have, I can look very slumpy and overly relaxed with shoulders at setup. In that situation , pre-tighten traps a bit in setup and it does what OP advocates without excess shoulder tension.

 

You want great posture with relaxed shoulders. To me, chest will feel more "up" than "out".  Spine is straighter and balance gets better.

 

 

Agree about strengthening trapezius muscles.  Do lots of shrugs and narrow grip high rows. 

[Nard_S]

7 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Agree about strengthening trapezius muscles.  Do lots of shrugs and narrow grip high rows. 

Good info, thanks.