Handicap Holes for Front 9 / Back 9

[delftw]

Need a little help.

Can anyone give me some courses where the even handicap holes are on the FRONT 9. I know its rare, Ive only been able to find one. The USGA recommends odd indexes on the front, but its not a requirement

 

Hopefully somebody had a couple spots

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

I took a look at my recent courses and found that Eagle Chase Golf Club in Marshville, NC has the even handicap ratings on the front 9.

[larrybud]

On 10/17/2023 at 7:45 PM, delftw said:

Need a little help.

Can anyone give me some courses where the even handicap holes are on the FRONT 9. I know its rare, Ive only been able to find one. The USGA recommends odd indexes on the front, but its not a requirement

 

Hopefully somebody had a couple spots

 

Can't think of any offhand, but I know I've seen it. Why do you ask?

[delftw]

15 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

Can't think of any offhand, but I know I've seen it. Why do you ask?

I was curious because our club has a much harder back 9 than front. However, our #1 index (along with all other odd-numbered index holes, is on the front) and I know a couple of people were curious to see if a change was even possible (the hardest hole IMO is definitely on the back 9). Just wanted to see how common it actually was. I've only been able to find 6 total courses within the US that have the 1 index on the back 9. 

 

Our 9th hole does not come back to the clubhouse so we can't just "flip the 9s" to solve the problem.

[larrybud]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:36 PM, delftw said:

I was curious because our club has a much harder back 9 than front. However, our #1 index (along with all other odd-numbered index holes, is on the front) and I know a couple of people were curious to see if a change was even possible (the hardest hole IMO is definitely on the back 9). Just wanted to see how common it actually was. I've only been able to find 6 total courses within the US that have the 1 index on the back 9. 

 

Our 9th hole does not come back to the clubhouse so we can't just "flip the 9s" to solve the problem.

 

All that stuff evens out over time. I'm a firm believer you could randomly assign hole handicaps and matches would, over a period of time, all even out anyway. The fact that your back is harder than the front really doesn't have anything to do with odd/even designations. Also hole handicaps aren't based on absolute difficulty of hole vs par. They are designed for match play, so the numbered are generally derived from the different in scoring average of a scratch golfer vs a bogey golfer for each hole.

 

That's why you often see difficult par 3s with high handicap values, even though they are difficult relative to par, and easy par 5s with low handicaps, even though they are easy relative to par.

 

Hypothetical example:

Think of a 220 yard par 3. Scratch golfer averages 3.4, Bogey golfer averages 4.4, difference of 1.0 strokes

Now think of a 475 yard par 5, reachable in two by a scratch player. Scratch golfer average 4.4, bogey golfer average 5.8, difference of 1.4.

 

The stroke is needed more on the par 5, even though it's easier relative to par for both players.

 

*(yes, I know the recommendations have changed since the WHS, but in the US very few play Stableford, so relative to par doesn't mean much here).

 

BTW, I've also seen courses where hole handicaps aren't evenly distributed between front and back.

Edited October 22, 2023 by larrybud

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

I've also seen courses where hole handicaps aren't evenly distributed between front and back.

Yah I’ve seen that too. Not sure what methodology they’re using, if any.  Probably none.  
generally speaking, if done properly, odds on the front, evens on the back. Unless the second nine is “significantly” more difficult than the first nine. And I think that would be a high hurdle.  
 

In response to the OP question.  Most golfers don’t understand the methodology uses to determine assigned stroke holes. They think that the “hardest”  hole should be #1.

In reality the methodology to determine where strokes are assigned is based on where the bogey golfer vs a scratch golfer needs a stroke.  There’s more detail and explanation given in the USGA documents.  
 

 

[Moonlightgrm]

When our course was up for a reevaluation in 2010, I was chairman of our greens and grounds committee. I greeted the crew from the Massachusetts Golf Association headed by MGA official Mr. Green. They toured our course in the morning taking measurements including green speeds and evaluating our 72 bunkers, tree canopies, slopes, hazards, etc… When they broke for lunch, I sat with the crew and pointed out that we find holes 15 and 16 to be the most difficult on the course. #15 is 455-yards from the tips with 3 fairway bunkers on the left, a huge pond on the right, out of bounds down the entire right side, a narrow fairway, a well bunkered two-tiered green, and generally plays into the prevailing wind. #16 is in the same direction as #15 playing. #16 plays 435 yards from an elevated tee to a narrow fairway with trees all the way down the left side, out of bounds down the right side, 2 fairway bunkers at 100 yards and 75 yards from the green, 2 green side bunkers, and a green that is 100 feet wide but only 35 feet deep. The hole doglegs slightly to the left. I asked if we might make the back-9 the odd numbered handicap holes. Mr. Green’s response, “MGA policy is odd on the front, even on the back”. After lunch, the crew played our course and agreed that the toughest holes on our course are 15 and 16. Especially with the prevailing wind and our slick greens. In the end #15 is our 4 handicap hole and #16 is our 2 handicap hole. The toughest hole on our front 9 is hole #1, but Mr. Green said, “We never make hole #1 the 1 handicap hole”. Hole #5 is our 1 handicap hole. It’s 420 yards with a pond in front of the green, and a huge fairway bunker on the right side and 3 bunkers around the green. Frankly, it’s probably the fifth most difficult hole on the course, but not according to the MGA. Anyway, that’s what the MGA was doing in 2010 when rating our golf course. All five of our tee boxes (red, gold, white, blue, and black) increased 3 to 5 points in the slope rating of the course.

[st1800e]

Everyone should read and understand this:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix E Stroke Index Allocation.htm

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Moonlightgrm said:

When our course was up for a reevaluation in 2010, I was chairman of our greens and grounds committee. I greeted the crew from the Massachusetts Golf Association headed by MGA official Mr. Green. They toured our course in the morning taking measurements including green speeds and evaluating our 72 bunkers, tree canopies, slopes, hazards, etc… When they broke for lunch, I sat with the crew and pointed out that we find holes 15 and 16 to be the most difficult on the course. #15 is 455-yards from the tips with 3 fairway bunkers on the left, a huge pond on the right, out of bounds down the entire right side, a narrow fairway, a well bunkered two-tiered green, and generally plays into the prevailing wind. #16 is in the same direction as #15 playing. #16 plays 435 yards from an elevated tee to a narrow fairway with trees all the way down the left side, out of bounds down the right side, 2 fairway bunkers at 100 yards and 75 yards from the green, 2 green side bunkers, and a green that is 100 feet wide but only 35 feet deep. The hole doglegs slightly to the left. I asked if we might make the back-9 the odd numbered handicap holes. Mr. Green’s response, “MGA policy is odd on the front, even on the back”. After lunch, the crew played our course and agreed that the toughest holes on our course are 15 and 16. Especially with the prevailing wind and our slick greens. In the end #15 is our 4 handicap hole and #16 is our 2 handicap hole. The toughest hole on our front 9 is hole #1, but Mr. Green said, “We never make hole #1 the 1 handicap hole”. Hole #5 is our 1 handicap hole. It’s 420 yards with a pond in front of the green, and a huge fairway bunker on the right side and 3 bunkers around the green. Frankly, it’s probably the fifth most difficult hole on the course, but not according to the MGA. Anyway, that’s what the MGA was doing in 2010 when rating our golf course. All five of our tee boxes (red, gold, white, blue, and black) increased 3 to 5 points in the slope rating of the course.

I’ll cherry pick the easy one…. The first hole is not the #1 handicap for some arbitrary idea of the MGA.  Think of it this way…you’re playing a match and giving your opponent one stroke on the round. Match goes to the 19th hole, which is the first hole, and you’re giving a stroke on the hole.

Now does it not seem like a good idea?  It’s the same reason you’re unlikely to see a club with the #2 handicap hole be 18.  In that case it’s likely many do not get strokes they’re entitled to.

[larrybud]

7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I’ll cherry pick the easy one…. The first hole is not the #1 handicap for some arbitrary idea of the MGA.  Think of it this way…you’re playing a match and giving your opponent one stroke on the round. Match goes to the 19th hole, which is the first hole, and you’re giving a stroke on the hole.

Now does it not seem like a good idea?  It’s the same reason you’re unlikely to see a club with the #2 handicap hole be 18.  In that case it’s likely many do not get strokes they’re entitled to.

Correct! 

I think they should do away with "what is hardest" and number them all the same for all courses. I'm serious. The reason is to spread out strokes FOR a match. In the end, I'm convinced hole handicaps would all even out over time anyway. I lose the shot on the 4th hole but gain a shot on the 7th hole, how can it not even out.

 

Here's a chart I made a bit ago while playing around with this idea, and gives a visual representation of where strokes would fall depending on how many strokes would be given. A player would never receive 2 strokes in a row until the number of strokes given is 11 or more.