I AM ONCE AGAIN ASKING FOR YOUR SUPPORT...

[Primo1868]

Hey Team,

Looking for a little constructive feedback and/or keys to focus on moving forward into this season. I'm currently stuck between a number of swing thoughts/focal points so I'd like to clean up my thought box and commit to focusing on a few items. 

 

Background:

• High swing speed player - 118 Driver CHS cruising
• High single digit HC:
  • Strengths:
    • putting
    • 30-120yd wedges
    • Willing to tinker, self-fit with impact spray and lead tape
  • Weaknesses:
    • Ball striking - from round to round and shot to shot in some cases
      • My head tilts and eyes follow the club head back on the backswing which Monte has identified as a major ball striking issue in numerous other threads.
    • Club face control - Two way miss is always in play
    • Currently non committal on swing thoughts - changing frequently from round to round to, "catch the unicorn"
• In between coaches in my area - have not had a consistent coach for multiple years. Goal for this year is to save up a little $$ and visit a top 100 teacher with a decorated background and proven track record at the end of this year.
• Play 45-90 rounds a year, depending on work
• Hit balls at least once per week (separate from the rounds I play) - generally focusing on pre-shot routine, performance based feedback (I tried to hit X shot, did it do X or Y), and some technical/camera feedback.
• Willing to grind on feels at home/before bed type stuff. I am unable to hit balls at my house. 
• I do not have reliable access to a launch monitor.
• I have arccos which helped me cut the fat and get from a 14 to a ~8.

 

Current Swing Thoughts/Focal Points:

• I have spent the majority of this winter working on the following:
  • Proper takeaway/wrist hinge structure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glVNNGJD28Q)
  • Right hip back in the backswing - touching the plane of glass (A la Monte's IG videos)
  • Left hip back in the downswing - touching the plane of glass (A la Monte's IG Videos)
    • Both these drills are done at home for 5 min a day multiple times a week.
• The reason I am here is because, the combination of the above work has allowed my good shots to be REALLY good - kick in birdies; however, I'm shanking 1 out of every 8 shots which has turned out to be round killers. Those poor shots are causing me to contemplate the direction I'm heading.

 

Feedback on Impact + Common Misses:

• Ball first contact frequency is high. I hit very few chunks if ever. 
• Thin contact is more frequent.
• Shanks 1 out of every 8 shots
• Face strike location is variable from round to round or range session to range session:
  • Sometimes I have a heel strike bias
  • Sometimes I am all over the face
  • I do not have reliable control of face strike location
• Two way misses are common - especially with longer clubs.
• My preferred shot shape is a small cut with all clubs but it is not uncommon for me to show up to the course and be hitting draws. It is also not uncommon for be to start out a round hitting draws and then finish the round hitting cuts.

 

I can provide more details as to what previous coaches had me working on, etc.. but would like to get an unbiased viewpoint before that discussion.

 

Swing Video (using the thoughts/focal points above):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Valtiel - hoping you chime in; I always appreciate your feedback on these forums!

 

Thanks,

 

Primo

Edited February 8 by Primo1868
Added Video

[Valtiel]

There are a lot of similarities to a recent thread i've responded to here so i'll be referring to it throughout. Generally the main points here are going to be related to what I assume to be the same kind of improper understanding of rotation in that thread discussed here...



...and how they're causing you to arrive at this impact position which we can see has a number of issues opposite from our platonic Adam Scott ideal. The main issue starts here as they usually do:



You mentioned doing the "butt back glass pane" type of drill regularly and the very first thing to point out is that there is a good chance you've either been doing it wrong *or* it isn't translating to your actual golf swing once a ball is there, but likely the former. I would really like a face on video to confirm this, but i'm seeing the same pattern as the thread I linked above in that:

1) You're immediately locking out your trail side, which means after this point no more rotation happens.
2) Your head tilting this severely to the side (and I assume towards the target) is the same thing @Ironman_32 was doing in his thread and it suggests an incorrect understanding of how to rotate.

Yes you are in fact pushing your right butt back against/across the "glass", but you aren't doing so in the correct way. I suspect again that a face on video will show something very similar to the thread I linked above in that you're collapsing your lead side inwards while trying to slam your right leg back at the same time. The problem is that what this accomplishes is establishing your right side as a now immobile post around which your front side can come forward....



...and this is backswards because of what it causes here; a left hip forward driven slide in towards the ball during the time when we should actually be attempting to *increase* our distance from the ball slightly. You can see the spacial problem this creates, your original hand position at address indicated by the orange dot is now completely occupied by your lower body. The only way you'd be able to get your hands back to where they were at address is if your body was primed to forcefully eject backwards away from the ball, a severe compensation that itself wouldn't be ideal anyway, but isn't even possible at this stage because we can see your momentum is sliding towards the ball. From here you can only do one thing:



Aggressively fire your trail side forward towards the ball. After this you are able to get your left leg working back and your right leg turning in towards the target, but because of everything that happened prior its too little too late.



This aggressive extension upwards is why you never hit the ball fat (and more frequently thin), because you're coming down so steeply that you'd bury the club into the ground without this move. The poor shots, two way misses, and shanks all come from managing this extreme steepness. This is where comments about how "the pros do far less" come from, because you've got 2-3 extra moves and compensations attached to those moves that you're cramming into the same time window.

The first thing to get your head around is the extent to which you're going to need to slow down for awhile while trying to address this. If you're capable of 118mph+ with the driver BUT are delivering the club like this, the metaphorically you're in a Bull Durham situation throwing 100mph+ fastballs that you can't keep on the planet. You're going to need to dial back to some 89mph Maddox controlled pitches with the expectation that you can ramp up again later. If you're itching to try something directly, take what I recommended in that thread I linked at the top as though I said it to you. If you want further direction then please grab same face on video, AND preferably some "behind" views like Monte discussed here.

[Primo1868]

46 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

You mentioned doing the "butt back glass pane" type of drill regularly and the very first thing to point out is that there is a good chance you've either been doing it wrong *or* it isn't translating to your actual golf swing once a ball is there, but likely the former. I would really like a face on video to confirm this, but i'm seeing the same pattern as the thread I linked above in that:

I have a face on video - it will be from an earlier period late last fall when I was working off different swing feels. It is here:

 

 

 

I'll try to digest your information bit by bit and may quote various bits to respond in a clear way. Thanks again for this I am absolutely delighted.

Edited February 8 by Primo1868

[Primo1868]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

If you're itching to try something directly, take what I recommended in that thread I linked at the top as though I said it to you.

Ok so here is my attempt at gathering the follow up information from the thread you linked (in sequential order):

1) starting small with "feet together" drills will help rewire you towards not coming towards the ball

2) Take a normal address posture without a club and stand as balanced as possible. 50/50 left and right and 50/50 heel toe. Now while maintaining that balance, shift your right foot pressure up towards the toe without leaning forward (towards the "ball"). You'll probably lift your knee slightly to do this, that is ok. Now in this position, try pushing your right hip straight back behind you *without* leaving your right toe, the idea being to avoid planting on your heel. To do this you will likely feel some serious stretching in your thigh and right glute, this is good (don't overdo it though). Now you don't actually make a backswing this way, but it's meant to show how you can push your right hip backwards without having to lean back on your heel and which muscles you use to do this. A sore right thigh and right glute will absolutely be expected when you correctly use your thigh/glute to push your right hip back instead of leaning backwards.

3) Job #1 is get your head around shifting properly in takeaway.

4)Something to consider when making these pelvic rotation changes is to drill actually standing way too *close* to the ball as that will help incentivize/force you to increase your distance from it.

5)Keep your head still and looking at the ball while simply bumping immediately towards your trail side in takeaway.

 

I totally understand and can see the incorrect rotation you have noted in both cases. Of the points above - which do you think I should start with? I'd like to start with one and drill it for a significant amount of time with video feedback before moving on to the next. Is there another drill that you have come across since @Ironman_32's thread was first made a year ago that you would throw in the mix?

[Ironman_32]

 

I came across the thread above from 2022 that @Valtiel posted on and included a AMG youtube golf video. I think it helped watching that. 

 

Main take away from that video (and from what @Valtiel has said), there can be a lot of focus on the downswing and "rotating" but if you don't set up the backswing properly you're just making compensations in the downswing. Also, possible swing thought is SHIFT->PIVOT->SHIFT->PIVOT

Edited February 8 by Ironman_32

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

I have a face on video - it will be from an earlier period late last fall when I was working off different swing feels. It is here:

 

 

 

I'll try to digest your information bit by bit and may quote various bits to respond in a clear way. Thanks again for this I am absolutely delighted.

Cheers, thats perfect. It confirms what I suspected from the DTL view plus a few other things.



You do make a tiny bump towards your trail hip here, but it's mostly cosmetic. The rest of your body is stationary so this isn't functionally a pressure shift (this will be important later).



Everything you do rotationally in the backswing is into your front side, you never shift back. This is like an extreme misinterpreted Stack and Tilt. You're also extending your torso/trunk backwards in an attempt to stay centered over the ball, putting a pronounced curve in your lower back. This is all very extreme in a bad way so my suggestions will be focused on undoing this.

This is also similar to the previous thread that I linked, but you take it even further by committing to *stay* moving towards the target the entire swing:



This, in a vacuum, is the correct "re-centering" move in how you're bumping into your lead leg while finishing the backswing with your shoulders obviously closed/facing the target. The problem is that a lateral pressure shift like this should be executed in proportion to how much you shifted in the backswing. Big lateral shift off the ball? Big re-center back:



Small lateral shift ? Small re-center:



No lateral shift back? No re-center:



And what Herbert, Cantlay, Bryson, and basically everyone else has in common?



Bumping into or just slightly through the "front" of the hip box at the very beginning of the downswing with the head centered. Obviously this then:



Is way out of bounds. How you got here could be a topic on conversation, but for now the best thing you can focus on is a drill that gets you out of this pattern.

The freezer drill with a re-centering step is what I recommend there. Basically swing to left arm parallel and while bumping over to your trail leg and stop:



Then spend the rest of your backswing re-centering with the goal being to start your downswing with your hips in or fractionally ahead of the box:



I wouldn't try this at full power, but you *can* swing pretty hard at this, as hard as your hips will let you. Generally your instincts for how to use your lower half at this point are pretty good, it's just being so out of position that you just need to get yourself in the right spot. If you can post face on videos of you doing this drill that would be great. 

 

Edited February 8 by Valtiel

[Primo1868]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Cheers, thats perfect. It confirms what I suspected from the DTL view plus a few other things.



You do make a tiny bump towards your trail hip here, but it's mostly cosmetic. The rest of your body is stationary so this isn't functionally a pressure shift (this will be important later).



Everything you do rotationally in the backswing is into your front side, you never shift back. This is like an extreme misinterpreted Stack and Tilt. You're also extending your torso/trunk backwards in an attempt to stay centered over the ball, putting a pronounced curve in your lower back. This is all very extreme in a bad way so my suggestions will be focused on undoing this.

This is also similar to the previous thread that I linked, but you take it even further by committing to *stay* moving towards the target the entire swing:



This, in a vacuum, is the correct "re-centering" move in how you're bumping into your lead leg while finishing the backswing with your shoulders obviously closed/facing the target. The problem is that a lateral pressure shift like this should be executed in proportion to how much you shifted in the backswing. Big lateral shift off the ball? Big re-center back:



Small lateral shift ? Small re-center:



No lateral shift back? No re-center:



And what Herbert, Cantlay, Bryson, and basically everyone else has in common?



Bumping into or just slightly through the "front" of the hip box at the very beginning of the downswing with the head centered. Obviously this then:



Is way out of bounds. How you got here could be a topic on conversation, but for now the best thing you can focus on is a drill that gets you out of this pattern.

The freezer drill with a re-centering step is what I recommend there. Basically swing to left arm parallel and while bumping over to your trail leg and stop:



Then spend the rest of your backswing re-centering with the goal being to start your downswing with your hips in or fractionally ahead of the box:



I wouldn't try this at full power, but you *can* swing pretty hard at this, as hard as your hips will let you. Generally your instincts for how to use your lower half at this point are pretty good, it's just being so out of position that you just need to get yourself in the right spot. If you can post face on videos of you doing this drill that would be great. 

 

 

Wonderful feedback. This is exactly what I wanted. Frankly, I can do reps of the freezer drill at the house to ingrain between sessions (at least I assume).

 

So, in your opinion, should I start with some of the above suggestions a la Iceman’s thread, first - or start with the freezer drill/second set of suggestions, first? 

 

Thanks again - you have given me a renewed hope that with some hardwork we can right this ship. 

[Valtiel]

15 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

 

Wonderful feedback. This is exactly what I wanted. Frankly, I can do reps of the freezer drill at the house to ingrain between sessions (at least I assume).

 

So, in your opinion, should I start with some of the above suggestions a la Iceman’s thread, first - or start with the freezer drill/second set of suggestions, first? 

 

Thanks again - you have given me a renewed hope that with some hardwork we can right this ship. 

I would start with the freeze/re-center drill for sure, and take video of you doing it at home face on to confirm you're hitting the right spots. That specific focus is warranted IMO because of the stark difference between how well you're able to use your lower body BUT how out of position everything is when you do so. This is a classic example of something needing to be tailored specifically for the "student", because what you are doing is *very* atypical. Everyone I have ever seen that gets too ahead of the ball via either reverse pivot, excessive sliding, or some other flaw has dumped all their angles in the downswing to reach the ball, but you:



You've held on to those angles and resisted the "6-8 Ballerina" position as Monte describes it in a way i've never seen before. This shows that you know how to accomplish this from a physical standpoint and you just need to be shifted/re-aligned to do this in the right spot relative to the ball. It might work quite well straight away OR you could struggle with fat shots for a bit as you recalibrate delivering the club without being a mile ahead of it.

[Primo1868]

@Valtiel

 

Just wanted to say thanks again. I've re-read this sequence of feedback multiple times and think I have a good understanding of what I need to do. 

 

As long as I have a good workday, I'm going to try to get out to the range this afternoon and set up with the camera face on to get some preliminary video. 

 

As I reflect back on my self-improvement journey over the last year, there was a time where I was using a similar sequence to the freezer drill as part of technical improvement/preshot swing feels. The only difference to the freezer drill that you prescribed vs. what I was doing is that, instead of finishing the back swing while shifting forward (after freezing), I was lowering the arms (a la Justin Rose Drill) while shifting forward from the frozen part of the drill. This focus actually had me lazering Driver/3w/5w but I was hitting a number of fat iron shots that were not playable so I abandoned the effort. I do not think, based on past experience, the freezer drill will be that foreign to me.

 

I am very hopeful. Last night I spent some time trying to understand the feels I need to "properly rotate" around the center of my hips in the backswing. Most prescribed feels that I found on WRX were not very helpful to execute the proper reals (via mirror feedback), but I was able to "think" about rotating around my tailbone while feeling my lead knee, "stay back - not protrude forward" which I think nailed the proper feels; I felt my right glute, hamstring, and right lower back tighten up significantly through the rotation exercise. Mirror feedback was positive. 

 

Going to start with freezer drill first and foremost. Will move on once I get that close to engrained.

[virtuoso]

If you have that much foot flare in your right leg at address (and we might as well call it leg flare), you are not going to be able to move your leg properly...which makes it impossible to turn your torso into the leg properly. The 180 direction from where your right toe is pointed is where your right hip is going to try to go.

[freddiec]

I think you should stand a little further away from the ball and get your hands also away from your body. I don't like that set up, its not a natural position.  You have a lot of good things happening, young, athletic, etc and overall a decent swing, but I'd work on getting the hands in a better position at address to start. 

[michaeld_2020]

@Valtiel

 

How does one have online lessons with you? Id love a similar analysis to what you have done here.

 

 

[Primo1868]

Ok team, got to the range yesterday! Look @Valtiel your clear and concise swing feedback is famous now! That’s why I love it! 
 

Unfortunately reps weren’t ideal. There is only one part of the range where I can set up my camera when we are matts only and there was someone there. 
 

I was forced to practice waiting for them to leave so I could get some video, then, was under a time crunch so I could only get a few shots in before I had to leave. By the time of these videos I had hit probably 60 or so balls in 1.5 hours - drilling the same thing every ball. These weren’t my cleanest reps, but, I think they are good for a check in:

 

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

Ok team, got to the range yesterday! Look @Valtiel your clear and concise swing feedback is famous now! That’s why I love it! 
 

Unfortunately reps weren’t ideal. There is only one part of the range where I can set up my camera when we are matts only and there was someone there. 
 

I was forced to practice waiting for them to leave so I could get some video, then, was under a time crunch so I could only get a few shots in before I had to leave. By the time of these videos I had hit probably 60 or so balls in 1.5 hours - drilling the same thing every ball. These weren’t my cleanest reps, but, I think they are good for a check in:

 

Cheers for the follow up. First thing to address now that you're moving laterally is this:



In addition to shifting too much (which is fine initially, i'd rather you be able to overdo it first) you aren't actually rotating but instead mostly sliding and, relative to that slide, you're reverse tilting your spine. In that your shifting both excessively and incorrectly, all understandable as your first attempt. I'll defer to Padraig's breakdown of this here and what you're meant to do. The section from 2:20 - 4:20 is specifically what you should focus on. He speaks both of the little "bump" we've discussed, but more critically what you're supposed to do *with* that bump. Right now you're aimlessly sliding while your head turns towards the target and I want you bump slightly and with the intention Padraig discussed while letting your head move with that instead of turning against it like you're doing above.
 

[Primo1868]

On 2/10/2024 at 12:10 PM, Valtiel said:

Cheers for the follow up. First thing to address now that you're moving laterally is this:



In addition to shifting too much (which is fine initially, i'd rather you be able to overdo it first) you aren't actually rotating but instead mostly sliding and, relative to that slide, you're reverse tilting your spine. In that your shifting both excessively and incorrectly, all understandable as your first attempt. I'll defer to Padraig's breakdown of this here and what you're meant to do. The section from 2:20 - 4:20 is specifically what you should focus on. He speaks both of the little "bump" we've discussed, but more critically what you're supposed to do *with* that bump. Right now you're aimlessly sliding while your head turns towards the target and I want you bump slightly and with the intention Padraig discussed while letting your head move with that instead of turning against it like you're doing above.
 

@Valtiel - I have fully digested this feedback now. I think I understand Padraig's breakdown quite nicely - just need to drill it in front of a mirror for a little while. 

 

The head thing is going to be tough. I've spent time in the past trying to fix that awkward head tilt and have never even remotely been successful. I think my best starting point may be to drill the take away, bump, rotate feels for a few weeks etc until they get engrained.. then I can start with the head movement - does that sound like a fair path forward?

 

Side note - played this weekend on top of the range time and had really promising results. All my full swings produced really good results. I am very excited about this path forward. 

[Primo1868]

2 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

@Valtiel - I have fully digested this feedback now. I think I understand Padraig's breakdown quite nicely - just need to drill it in front of a mirror for a little while. 

 

The head thing is going to be tough. I've spent time in the past trying to fix that awkward head tilt and have never even remotely been successful. I think my best starting point may be to drill the take away, bump, rotate feels for a few weeks etc until they get engrained.. then I can start with the head movement - does that sound like a fair path forward?

 

Side note - played this weekend on top of the range time and had really promising results. All my full swings produced really good results. I am very excited about this path forward. 

Side note - just found this, should I employ this feel to get my head working properly? Summary at 7:56 min mark:

 

[Valtiel]

10 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

@Valtiel - I have fully digested this feedback now. I think I understand Padraig's breakdown quite nicely - just need to drill it in front of a mirror for a little while. 

 

The head thing is going to be tough. I've spent time in the past trying to fix that awkward head tilt and have never even remotely been successful. I think my best starting point may be to drill the take away, bump, rotate feels for a few weeks etc until they get engrained.. then I can start with the head movement - does that sound like a fair path forward?

 

Side note - played this weekend on top of the range time and had really promising results. All my full swings produced really good results. I am very excited about this path forward. 

Glad you're seeing improvements! Regarding the head tilt, I want to stress that its a product of how you're rotating, not something that you're just doing with your head. I've been responding to you, @Ironman_32, and @michaeld_2020 all around the same period and all three of you have versions of this same issue so i'm going to do a breakdown of this with all of you together while also collecting the disparate info that has been spread across the three different threads/DMs to put it in one place. My hope is that it will be helpful for you three while also being a guide that anyone else suffering from the same problems can follow. I will follow up here soon. 👍

[Valtiel]

And also yes, that Shawn Clement video does a great job of going over the problem, although whether that feel he describes will work for you or not I do not know. I would rather breakdown the "why" so the issue itself can be better understood before just suggesting you strap a new feel onto something. 

[jholz]

Always such highly intriguing stuff. Really trying to stay away from "random instruction" these days. 

 

But every time I read one of these @Valtiel threads, it seems to reinforce the fundamentals that I am working on. 

 

Always appreciate the visuals and insights dude! 

 

And thank you @Primo1868 for serving as the guinea pig this time around. You cajones are larger than my own. Much respect! 🙂 

[jholz]

On 2/8/2024 at 8:36 PM, Valtiel said:

 

 

This seems, at least to me, to be a pretty classic position for the athletically competent, diligent working, but completely clueless golfer. I've made this swing many, many times in my golfing life. 

 

But, I'm coming around to the realization that this is an "impact" position - at least in relation to everything except the hands, arms, and golf club. 

 

The issue is getting from one to the other.  

 

This is what has led me to really think about my sternum in relation to impact position.

 

We've all got work to do, obviously.  

 

Best of luck on your journey! 

Edited February 13 by jholz

[Valtiel]

Ok @Primo1868, @Ironman_32, and @michaeld_2020, sorry for the wait. This one took a minute. Please take the time to get to the end, re-read as necessary, and follow up with questions if you have them.



Using this image I want to address "tilts", in this case tilt away from the target, but it's relevant to both.The forward tilt that he we have towards the ball (left) and the slight backwards tilt we have away from the target (right) are two angles that more or less need to be maintained throughout the swing. The tilt away from the target will often increase slightly, especially with longer clubs, but critically you never want it to *decrease*, even when flighting the ball down. The forward tilt we have towards the ball is a little more malleable, but generally we want it to stay the same or *maybe* decrease slightly. Usually it won't increase, and we simply don't want to decrease more than a little if at all.

All of this is important because forward tilt establishes our body's positional relationship to the ball, and backwards tilt sets up the ability to drive forward towards the target with our lower half while keeping our upper half somewhat behind the ball, preserving the overall shape and low point of the swing arc so as to simply strike the ball correctly.

The problem with issues anywhere in address position, rotation, and pressure shifting is that they'll usually do something to screw up one of these tilts in such a way that you have to compensate elsewhere in the swing:



This is a lot of visual info so i'll try to break it down in chunks by person:

@michaeld_2020 You set up with a conventionally correct amount of tilt, but you lose it in the backswing and straighten up with your head coming towards the target. Based on your DTL videos this is largely due to improper pelvic rotation in the backswing (too much left hip forward) and i'll cover that more below as it will be relevant for everyone.

@Primo1868 Similar to Michael you're using your left side to rotate too much and you're resisting allowing your upper body to get behind the ball. You also have less tilt at address although nothing really "wrong" yet.

@Ironman_32 You have a problem right at address in that you have no tilt, you're basically straight up and down without any increase in it going back.

As you can see with Tiger, Rory, and Collin there is a nearly perfect maintaining of the spine tilt that was set at address all the way to the top. Tiger and Collin dip a little bit because they have a slightly deeper right hip turn than Rory who stays more centered, all good though as spine angle has remained.

For all three of you I would definitely recommend getting in front of a mirror, setting a tilt away from the "target", and practice making slow backswing where you keep that tilt. Don't worry about rotation yet, just feel what it feels like to *not* lose that tilt, which will likely feel weird initially. @Ironman_32 you'll want to feel this tilt prominently as you have none currently, @Primo1868 maybe a tiny bit more than pictured above, @michaeld_2020 you're good as is.

The bigger differences come at impact:



Note how everyone has tilt away from the target at impact in one way or another that increase slightly from the top of the backswing, the big difference is where it comes from and how it gets there.

@michaeld_2020 and @Primo1868 you two both suffer from what happens when the incorrect rotation in the backswing brings your upper body towards the target. In pivoting into your front side you kinda bring everything along for the ride and end up way out in front of the ball in terms of head position. @Ironman_32 you're forced to flip a lot more because you have to tilt backwards in order to get to the ball due to not having any tilt anywhere to begin with.

Michael and Primo, you two are going to have to contend with the fact that physical strength and fitness are causing you to brute force your way over these flaws, especially you Primo with that massive shift towards the target that sees you sliding much too far out in front of the ball. @Ironman_32 you're just going to have to get setup more athletically and commit to making the right moves with more intention, because right now your body is very passive and you're letting yourself be pushed and pulled by the momentum of the swing, hence why you're shifting late as a highlighted previously and why you're early extending.

All of you need a proper shift and turn into your trail side in the backswing to kick things off, so in addition to the AMG Hip Turn basics, I like this as a visual:



I pulled his rear aerial angle of Nicklaus from perfectgolfswingreview.net, just to give due credit. I've added the yellow lines and dots for illustrative purposes. With the orange line resting on top of his hips and the dots marking his left and right pockets, notice how much *more* his right side turns back compared to the left side turning forward. The angle exaggerates it a bit, but this is a visual to support what is covered in that AMG Hip Turn video. The right side gets pressured very very early in the backswing and that pressure is used to drive the right side *slightly* away from the target initially but primarily around behind us. This feels very weird and different from the more intuitive swinging forward of the front side to create rotation, and will initially feel like you can't "turn" as much this way. It will also feel like it's increasing your distance from the ball (which it is technically), but that slight increase is *needed* to maintain the tilts I talked about back at the beginning.

When you rotate incorrectly by bringing the left side forward, you're almost always forced to the lose some of your forward tilt (standing up slightly) and any tilt you have away from the target. This is because our brain inherently hates being in this position when moving athletically. Being tilted on two different axis' is unintuitive and our brain wants us to be standing straight up, which you'll notice is a tendency you all have to one degree or another. This needs to be unlearned, like doing a cartwheel which almost always looks like this initially:



Because just like a golf swing, nothing about this is natural...



....yet we all know which one *looks* smoother and more intuitive.

So to recap; start with the mirror swings w/appropriate upper body tilt + practice swings getting used to the feel of keeping that tilt. Post videos if you can making swings with this in mind, then work on the right hip depth fundamentals covered in the AMG video and reinforced here. There is going to be a whole separate chunk dedicated to proper transition stuff, but first things first. 👍

[Ironman_32]

17 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Ok @Primo1868, @Ironman_32, and @michaeld_2020, sorry for the wait. This one took a minute. Please take the time to get to the end, re-read as necessary, and follow up with questions if you have them.



Using this image I want to address "tilts", in this case tilt away from the target, but it's relevant to both.The forward tilt that he we have towards the ball (left) and the slight backwards tilt we have away from the target (right) are two angles that more or less need to be maintained throughout the swing. The tilt away from the target will often increase slightly, especially with longer clubs, but critically you never want it to *decrease*, even when flighting the ball down. The forward tilt we have towards the ball is a little more malleable, but generally we want it to stay the same or *maybe* decrease slightly. Usually it won't increase, and we simply don't want to decrease more than a little if at all.

All of this is important because forward tilt establishes our body's positional relationship to the ball, and backwards tilt sets up the ability to drive forward towards the target with our lower half while keeping our upper half somewhat behind the ball, preserving the overall shape and low point of the swing arc so as to simply strike the ball correctly.

The problem with issues anywhere in address position, rotation, and pressure shifting is that they'll usually do something to screw up one of these tilts in such a way that you have to compensate elsewhere in the swing:



This is a lot of visual info so i'll try to break it down in chunks by person:

@michaeld_2020 You set up with a conventionally correct amount of tilt, but you lose it in the backswing and straighten up with your head coming towards the target. Based on your DTL videos this is largely due to improper pelvic rotation in the backswing (too much left hip forward) and i'll cover that more below as it will be relevant for everyone.

@Primo1868 Similar to Michael you're using your left side to rotate too much and you're resisting allowing your upper body to get behind the ball. You also have less tilt at address although nothing really "wrong" yet.

@Ironman_32 You have a problem right at address in that you have no tilt, you're basically straight up and down without any increase in it going back.

As you can see with Tiger, Rory, and Collin there is a nearly perfect maintaining of the spine tilt that was set at address all the way to the top. Tiger and Collin dip a little bit because they have a slightly deeper right hip turn than Rory who stays more centered, all good though as spine angle has remained.

For all three of you I would definitely recommend getting in front of a mirror, setting a tilt away from the "target", and practice making slow backswing where you keep that tilt. Don't worry about rotation yet, just feel what it feels like to *not* lose that tilt, which will likely feel weird initially. @Ironman_32 you'll want to feel this tilt prominently as you have none currently, @Primo1868 maybe a tiny bit more than pictured above, @michaeld_2020 you're good as is.

The bigger differences come at impact:



Note how everyone has tilt away from the target at impact in one way or another that increase slightly from the top of the backswing, the big difference is where it comes from and how it gets there.

@michaeld_2020 and @Primo1868 you two both suffer from what happens when the incorrect rotation in the backswing brings your upper body towards the target. In pivoting into your front side you kinda bring everything along for the ride and end up way out in front of the ball in terms of head position. @Ironman_32 you're forced to flip a lot more because you have to tilt backwards in order to get to the ball due to not having any tilt anywhere to begin with.

Michael and Primo, you two are going to have to contend with the fact that physical strength and fitness are causing you to brute force your way over these flaws, especially you Primo with that massive shift towards the target that sees you sliding much too far out in front of the ball. @Ironman_32 you're just going to have to get setup more athletically and commit to making the right moves with more intention, because right now your body is very passive and you're letting yourself be pushed and pulled by the momentum of the swing, hence why you're shifting late as a highlighted previously and why you're early extending.

All of you need a proper shift and turn into your trail side in the backswing to kick things off, so in addition to the AMG Hip Turn basics, I like this as a visual:



I pulled his rear aerial angle of Nicklaus from perfectgolfswingreview.net, just to give due credit. I've added the yellow lines and dots for illustrative purposes. With the orange line resting on top of his hips and the dots marking his left and right pockets, notice how much *more* his right side turns back compared to the left side turning forward. The angle exaggerates it a bit, but this is a visual to support what is covered in that AMG Hip Turn video. The right side gets pressured very very early in the backswing and that pressure is used to drive the right side *slightly* away from the target initially but primarily around behind us. This feels very weird and different from the more intuitive swinging forward of the front side to create rotation, and will initially feel like you can't "turn" as much this way. It will also feel like it's increasing your distance from the ball (which it is technically), but that slight increase is *needed* to maintain the tilts I talked about back at the beginning.

When you rotate incorrectly by bringing the left side forward, you're almost always forced to the lose some of your forward tilt (standing up slightly) and any tilt you have away from the target. This is because our brain inherently hates being in this position when moving athletically. Being tilted on two different axis' is unintuitive and our brain wants us to be standing straight up, which you'll notice is a tendency you all have to one degree or another. This needs to be unlearned, like doing a cartwheel which almost always looks like this initially:



Because just like a golf swing, nothing about this is natural...



....yet we all know which one *looks* smoother and more intuitive.

So to recap; start with the mirror swings w/appropriate upper body tilt + practice swings getting used to the feel of keeping that tilt. Post videos if you can making swings with this in mind, then work on the right hip depth fundamentals covered in the AMG video and reinforced here. There is going to be a whole separate chunk dedicated to proper transition stuff, but first things first. 👍

@Valtiel thanks, can't keep thanking you enough for the videos and the insight. It's funny, you point out stuff immediately and I'm just sitting here thinking "that's exactly how it feels" (like my body basically being passive through the whole swing. 

 

Definitely going to work through this and do some mirror drills, have to committ to the changes as they come. I did that a lot when I first starting playing and getting lessons, but have fallen off a little just as the years go by. Thanks again!

[Primo1868]

Hey Team and Coach @Valtiel!

 

Wanted to give a check up after the comprehensive post on 2/17. I believe I’ve fully digested what was shared and have come up with a plan of attack for drilling things one at a time until I address them all. From 2/22 to 2/25 I was in “play box” because I had a lot of rounds scheduled. I did very little at home swing work or range swing work, just focused on warming up and playing to the best of my ability.
 

I did take some video for the check in on Sunday after my rounds and will go back into technical work for the next few weeks.

Part one of my plan is to work on until it’s ingrained: shift, rotate, shift, rotate feeling. This is easy to drill at home in my mirror.  What’s weird is when I drill it at home, my rotation looks good (as in right hip back, left hip back) but if I use the same feel over the ball I’m clearly not doing that. 

Videos (Face on):

 

 

 

 

will continue in another post…

[Primo1868]

Videos (DTL):

 

 

 

What has been a delightful surprise from all of this, “shift, rotate, shift, rotate” feel is I’ve struck the ball extremely solid. The feeling actually has me with some pretty consistent and reliable ball flight with only a few errant misses (ball still moving toward intended direction); much improved from my two way misses of the past. If you told me 4 months ago that this little effort would have me hitting the ball the way I was over the weekend, I’d have fainted. 
 

I will keep working and checking in at some frequency.

 

Bonus content: 

Striping my drive down 18 fairway at HT on Friday. 

 

 

Thanks again for all the help, @Valtiel!!

[Primo1868]

On 2/17/2024 at 6:48 PM, Valtiel said:

Ok @Primo1868, @Ironman_32, and @michaeld_2020, sorry for the wait. This one took a minute. Please take the time to get to the end, re-read as necessary, and follow up with questions if you have them.



Using this image I want to address "tilts", in this case tilt away from the target, but it's relevant to both.The forward tilt that he we have towards the ball (left) and the slight backwards tilt we have away from the target (right) are two angles that more or less need to be maintained throughout the swing. The tilt away from the target will often increase slightly, especially with longer clubs, but critically you never want it to *decrease*, even when flighting the ball down. The forward tilt we have towards the ball is a little more malleable, but generally we want it to stay the same or *maybe* decrease slightly. Usually it won't increase, and we simply don't want to decrease more than a little if at all.

All of this is important because forward tilt establishes our body's positional relationship to the ball, and backwards tilt sets up the ability to drive forward towards the target with our lower half while keeping our upper half somewhat behind the ball, preserving the overall shape and low point of the swing arc so as to simply strike the ball correctly.

The problem with issues anywhere in address position, rotation, and pressure shifting is that they'll usually do something to screw up one of these tilts in such a way that you have to compensate elsewhere in the swing:



This is a lot of visual info so i'll try to break it down in chunks by person:

@michaeld_2020 You set up with a conventionally correct amount of tilt, but you lose it in the backswing and straighten up with your head coming towards the target. Based on your DTL videos this is largely due to improper pelvic rotation in the backswing (too much left hip forward) and i'll cover that more below as it will be relevant for everyone.

@Primo1868 Similar to Michael you're using your left side to rotate too much and you're resisting allowing your upper body to get behind the ball. You also have less tilt at address although nothing really "wrong" yet.

@Ironman_32 You have a problem right at address in that you have no tilt, you're basically straight up and down without any increase in it going back.

As you can see with Tiger, Rory, and Collin there is a nearly perfect maintaining of the spine tilt that was set at address all the way to the top. Tiger and Collin dip a little bit because they have a slightly deeper right hip turn than Rory who stays more centered, all good though as spine angle has remained.

For all three of you I would definitely recommend getting in front of a mirror, setting a tilt away from the "target", and practice making slow backswing where you keep that tilt. Don't worry about rotation yet, just feel what it feels like to *not* lose that tilt, which will likely feel weird initially. @Ironman_32 you'll want to feel this tilt prominently as you have none currently, @Primo1868 maybe a tiny bit more than pictured above, @michaeld_2020 you're good as is.

The bigger differences come at impact:



Note how everyone has tilt away from the target at impact in one way or another that increase slightly from the top of the backswing, the big difference is where it comes from and how it gets there.

@michaeld_2020 and @Primo1868 you two both suffer from what happens when the incorrect rotation in the backswing brings your upper body towards the target. In pivoting into your front side you kinda bring everything along for the ride and end up way out in front of the ball in terms of head position. @Ironman_32 you're forced to flip a lot more because you have to tilt backwards in order to get to the ball due to not having any tilt anywhere to begin with.

Michael and Primo, you two are going to have to contend with the fact that physical strength and fitness are causing you to brute force your way over these flaws, especially you Primo with that massive shift towards the target that sees you sliding much too far out in front of the ball. @Ironman_32 you're just going to have to get setup more athletically and commit to making the right moves with more intention, because right now your body is very passive and you're letting yourself be pushed and pulled by the momentum of the swing, hence why you're shifting late as a highlighted previously and why you're early extending.

All of you need a proper shift and turn into your trail side in the backswing to kick things off, so in addition to the AMG Hip Turn basics, I like this as a visual:



I pulled his rear aerial angle of Nicklaus from perfectgolfswingreview.net, just to give due credit. I've added the yellow lines and dots for illustrative purposes. With the orange line resting on top of his hips and the dots marking his left and right pockets, notice how much *more* his right side turns back compared to the left side turning forward. The angle exaggerates it a bit, but this is a visual to support what is covered in that AMG Hip Turn video. The right side gets pressured very very early in the backswing and that pressure is used to drive the right side *slightly* away from the target initially but primarily around behind us. This feels very weird and different from the more intuitive swinging forward of the front side to create rotation, and will initially feel like you can't "turn" as much this way. It will also feel like it's increasing your distance from the ball (which it is technically), but that slight increase is *needed* to maintain the tilts I talked about back at the beginning.

When you rotate incorrectly by bringing the left side forward, you're almost always forced to the lose some of your forward tilt (standing up slightly) and any tilt you have away from the target. This is because our brain inherently hates being in this position when moving athletically. Being tilted on two different axis' is unintuitive and our brain wants us to be standing straight up, which you'll notice is a tendency you all have to one degree or another. This needs to be unlearned, like doing a cartwheel which almost always looks like this initially:



Because just like a golf swing, nothing about this is natural...



....yet we all know which one *looks* smoother and more intuitive.

So to recap; start with the mirror swings w/appropriate upper body tilt + practice swings getting used to the feel of keeping that tilt. Post videos if you can making swings with this in mind, then work on the right hip depth fundamentals covered in the AMG video and reinforced here. There is going to be a whole separate chunk dedicated to proper transition stuff, but first things first. 👍

Quick question @Valtiel

 

I've moved into air swings in from of a mirror with the proper tilts. As you stated, it is very weird. I know you said do not worry about rotation while learning the proper tilts. What I am having trouble with, though, is the proper weight shift while maintaining tilts. When we post videos with those swing changes in mind - you still want a video of us hitting the ball right? Not a video of the in the mirror air swings?

[Valtiel]

On 3/15/2024 at 8:37 AM, Primo1868 said:

Quick question @Valtiel

 

I've moved into air swings in from of a mirror with the proper tilts. As you stated, it is very weird. I know you said do not worry about rotation while learning the proper tilts. What I am having trouble with, though, is the proper weight shift while maintaining tilts. When we post videos with those swing changes in mind - you still want a video of us hitting the ball right? Not a video of the in the mirror air swings?

Correct, although the "air" swing can still be helpful because often times you'll be doing something you think is good/correct in the rehearsal that either is and is worth reinforcing, or isn't and is worth correcting there. 

[Primo1868]

Alright Team, quick check up - @Valtiel

 

I have been doing air swings in the mirror now for almost 2 weeks. In the first video you will see my “practice” swing which is very similar to what my air swings look like in the mirror. Looking for a check up to make sure I’m heading in the right direction. Here are some thoughts:

1) I really feel like it’s hard to combine shifting with this rehearsal. I have hit a number of shanks which only show up when I’m not shifting my weight properly.

2) ground contact has definitely moved back. I think part of this is intentional with the drill, but, I can’t help but feel like I’m hanging back and not getting my weight forward.

3) strike quality is absolutely night and day improved. I’m living more on the center of the club face than I have since I was playing competitive golf in high school. I’ve also (weirdly) picked up even more distance which is slightly concerning 🤪. I hit my 2 iron where I normally hit my driver the other day which is really long for me. 
 

Videos for your feedback:

 

 

[Primo1868]

Cont’d:

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

6 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

Alright Team, quick check up - @Valtiel

 

I have been doing air swings in the mirror now for almost 2 weeks. In the first video you will see my “practice” swing which is very similar to what my air swings look like in the mirror. Looking for a check up to make sure I’m heading in the right direction. Here are some thoughts:

1) I really feel like it’s hard to combine shifting with this rehearsal. I have hit a number of shanks which only show up when I’m not shifting my weight properly.

2) ground contact has definitely moved back. I think part of this is intentional with the drill, but, I can’t help but feel like I’m hanging back and not getting my weight forward.

3) strike quality is absolutely night and day improved. I’m living more on the center of the club face than I have since I was playing competitive golf in high school. I’ve also (weirdly) picked up even more distance which is slightly concerning 🤪. I hit my 2 iron where I normally hit my driver the other day which is really long for me. 
 

Videos for your feedback:

 

IMG_1193.mov 29.57 MB · 0 downloads  

 

 

5 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

Cont’d:

 

IMG_1192.mov 24.71 MB · 0 downloads  

 

IMG_1191.mov 16.1 MB · 0 downloads  

 

Agreed with your assessment about what is good and bad here. Broadly speaking this is, in mostly a good way, a bit of flip from one extreme to another. On the good side you are "staying back" in that you aren't lurching *way* too far in front of the ball like you were before, but i'd definitely argue you're hanging back too far:



This rehearsal move is dangerous if you were to actually swing anything like this and makes plenty of sense that you feel like you can't get into your frontside. You're leaning way backwards like you're trying to hit 15* up on a driver when we still want to be hitting down on irons. It also feels like you're manufacturing a couple of moves here that could easily be replaced by simply moving the ball one rotation forward in your stance as it's a touch back at the moment. It's basically right in the center of your stance and you're hanging back when it could/should be a touch forward which would encourage you to drive forward into your front side as opposed to this hang back rehearsal you're doing. 

I'd also like to see a DTL angle as well to check on your setup, overall hip depth, and distance from the ball. 

[Primo1868]

On 3/19/2024 at 7:03 PM, Valtiel said:

 

Agreed with your assessment about what is good and bad here. Broadly speaking this is, in mostly a good way, a bit of flip from one extreme to another. On the good side you are "staying back" in that you aren't lurching *way* too far in front of the ball like you were before, but i'd definitely argue you're hanging back too far:



This rehearsal move is dangerous if you were to actually swing anything like this and makes plenty of sense that you feel like you can't get into your frontside. You're leaning way backwards like you're trying to hit 15* up on a driver when we still want to be hitting down on irons. It also feels like you're manufacturing a couple of moves here that could easily be replaced by simply moving the ball one rotation forward in your stance as it's a touch back at the moment. It's basically right in the center of your stance and you're hanging back when it could/should be a touch forward which would encourage you to drive forward into your front side as opposed to this hang back rehearsal you're doing. 

I'd also like to see a DTL angle as well to check on your setup, overall hip depth, and distance from the ball. 

Ok went back to the range today to try to refine my understanding of the proper movement and get you some DTL shots. 
 

I will preface this by saying I put in a 16 hour night shift last night, so, I feel like a zombie and these swings are pretty loose as a result. Definitely a C- feeling game today but anyway..

 

face on video - rehearsal shows the difference in feeling from last videos:

 

 

DTL next post.