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Hey Team,

Looking for a little constructive feedback and/or keys to focus on moving forward into this season. I'm currently stuck between a number of swing thoughts/focal points so I'd like to clean up my thought box and commit to focusing on a few items. 

 

Background:

  • High swing speed player - 118 Driver CHS cruising
  • High single digit HC:
    • Strengths:
      • putting
      • 30-120yd wedges
      • Willing to tinker, self-fit with impact spray and lead tape
    • Weaknesses:
      • Ball striking - from round to round and shot to shot in some cases
        • My head tilts and eyes follow the club head back on the backswing which Monte has identified as a major ball striking issue in numerous other threads.
      • Club face control - Two way miss is always in play
      • Currently non committal on swing thoughts - changing frequently from round to round to, "catch the unicorn"
  • In between coaches in my area - have not had a consistent coach for multiple years. Goal for this year is to save up a little $$ and visit a top 100 teacher with a decorated background and proven track record at the end of this year.
  • Play 45-90 rounds a year, depending on work
  • Hit balls at least once per week (separate from the rounds I play) - generally focusing on pre-shot routine, performance based feedback (I tried to hit X shot, did it do X or Y), and some technical/camera feedback.
  • Willing to grind on feels at home/before bed type stuff. I am unable to hit balls at my house. 
  • I do not have reliable access to a launch monitor.
  • I have arccos which helped me cut the fat and get from a 14 to a ~8.

 

Current Swing Thoughts/Focal Points:

  • I have spent the majority of this winter working on the following:
    • Proper takeaway/wrist hinge structure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glVNNGJD28Q)
    • Right hip back in the backswing - touching the plane of glass (A la Monte's IG videos)
    • Left hip back in the downswing - touching the plane of glass (A la Monte's IG Videos)
      • Both these drills are done at home for 5 min a day multiple times a week.
  • The reason I am here is because, the combination of the above work has allowed my good shots to be REALLY good - kick in birdies; however, I'm shanking 1 out of every 8 shots which has turned out to be round killers. Those poor shots are causing me to contemplate the direction I'm heading.

 

Feedback on Impact + Common Misses:

  • Ball first contact frequency is high. I hit very few chunks if ever. 
  • Thin contact is more frequent.
  • Shanks 1 out of every 8 shots
  • Face strike location is variable from round to round or range session to range session:
    • Sometimes I have a heel strike bias
    • Sometimes I am all over the face
    • I do not have reliable control of face strike location
  • Two way misses are common - especially with longer clubs.
  • My preferred shot shape is a small cut with all clubs but it is not uncommon for me to show up to the course and be hitting draws. It is also not uncommon for be to start out a round hitting draws and then finish the round hitting cuts.

 

I can provide more details as to what previous coaches had me working on, etc.. but would like to get an unbiased viewpoint before that discussion.

 

Swing Video (using the thoughts/focal points above):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Valtiel - hoping you chime in; I always appreciate your feedback on these forums!

 

Thanks,

 

Primo

Edited by Primo1868
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46 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

You mentioned doing the "butt back glass pane" type of drill regularly and the very first thing to point out is that there is a good chance you've either been doing it wrong *or* it isn't translating to your actual golf swing once a ball is there, but likely the former. I would really like a face on video to confirm this, but i'm seeing the same pattern as the thread I linked above in that:

I have a face on video - it will be from an earlier period late last fall when I was working off different swing feels. It is here:

 

 

 

I'll try to digest your information bit by bit and may quote various bits to respond in a clear way. Thanks again for this I am absolutely delighted.

Edited by Primo1868
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1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

If you're itching to try something directly, take what I recommended in that thread I linked at the top as though I said it to you.

Ok so here is my attempt at gathering the follow up information from the thread you linked (in sequential order):

1) starting small with "feet together" drills will help rewire you towards not coming towards the ball

2) Take a normal address posture without a club and stand as balanced as possible. 50/50 left and right and 50/50 heel toe. Now while maintaining that balance, shift your right foot pressure up towards the toe without leaning forward (towards the "ball"). You'll probably lift your knee slightly to do this, that is ok. Now in this position, try pushing your right hip straight back behind you *without* leaving your right toe, the idea being to avoid planting on your heel. To do this you will likely feel some serious stretching in your thigh and right glute, this is good (don't overdo it though). Now you don't actually make a backswing this way, but it's meant to show how you can push your right hip backwards without having to lean back on your heel and which muscles you use to do this. A sore right thigh and right glute will absolutely be expected when you correctly use your thigh/glute to push your right hip back instead of leaning backwards.

3) Job #1 is get your head around shifting properly in takeaway.

4)Something to consider when making these pelvic rotation changes is to drill actually standing way too *close* to the ball as that will help incentivize/force you to increase your distance from it.

5)Keep your head still and looking at the ball while simply bumping immediately towards your trail side in takeaway.

 

I totally understand and can see the incorrect rotation you have noted in both cases. Of the points above - which do you think I should start with? I'd like to start with one and drill it for a significant amount of time with video feedback before moving on to the next. Is there another drill that you have come across since @Ironman_32's thread was first made a year ago that you would throw in the mix?

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I came across the thread above from 2022 that @Valtiel posted on and included a AMG youtube golf video. I think it helped watching that. 

 

Main take away from that video (and from what @Valtiel has said), there can be a lot of focus on the downswing and "rotating" but if you don't set up the backswing properly you're just making compensations in the downswing. Also, possible swing thought is SHIFT->PIVOT->SHIFT->PIVOT

Edited by Ironman_32
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2 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

I have a face on video - it will be from an earlier period late last fall when I was working off different swing feels. It is here:

 

 

 

I'll try to digest your information bit by bit and may quote various bits to respond in a clear way. Thanks again for this I am absolutely delighted.


Cheers, thats perfect. It confirms what I suspected from the DTL view plus a few other things.

PrimoFO1.gif.77aee7275e7e944529420a857bacbde9.gif

You do make a tiny bump towards your trail hip here, but it's mostly cosmetic. The rest of your body is stationary so this isn't functionally a pressure shift (this will be important later).

PrimoFO2.gif.d0fecd4ea48414918cdf47c38f022976.gif

Everything you do rotationally in the backswing is into your front side, you never shift back. This is like an extreme misinterpreted Stack and Tilt. You're also extending your torso/trunk backwards in an attempt to stay centered over the ball, putting a pronounced curve in your lower back. This is all very extreme in a bad way so my suggestions will be focused on undoing this.

This is also similar to the previous thread that I linked, but you take it even further by committing to *stay* moving towards the target the entire swing:

PrimoFO3.gif.c235452fad521056b4f5d2b4e10be74b.gif

This, in a vacuum, is the correct "re-centering" move in how you're bumping into your lead leg while finishing the backswing with your shoulders obviously closed/facing the target. The problem is that a lateral pressure shift like this should be executed in proportion to how much you shifted in the backswing. Big lateral shift off the ball? Big re-center back:

HerbertCenter.gif.2436983bfc96ae62b91e6119e7311e96.gif

Small lateral shift ? Small re-center:

CantlayCenter.gif.ebccfb0a7f4f5b74fa9c6d44afd90e00.gif

No lateral shift back? No re-center:

BrysonCenter.gif.e1b64f77280ff88fa0e3cc4d33afcb30.gif

And what Herbert, Cantlay, Bryson, and basically everyone else has in common?

HerbertBrysonCantlay.thumb.gif.b9eb4091e9b757b1a49b551f63c42587.gif

Bu
mping into or just slightly through the "front" of the hip box at the very beginning of the downswing with the head centered. Obviously this then:

Primohips.gif.9dc7fcf0b8fc433cf93bba9f8215cc06.gif

Is way out of bounds. How you got here could be a topic on conversation, but for now the best thing you can focus on is a drill that gets you out of this pattern.

The freezer drill with a re-centering step is what I recommend there. Basically swing to left arm parallel and while bumping over to your trail leg and stop:

AdamBump1.gif.b250b0a67e2d5533f197d0fed1ad6b34.gif

Then spend the rest of your backswing re-centering with the goal being to start your downswing with your hips in or fractionally ahead of the box:

AdamBump2.gif.c4823d477d7ae791a37cd2b860f85516.gif

I wouldn't try this at full power, but you *can* swing pretty hard at this, as hard as your hips will let you. Generally your instincts for how to use your lower half at this point are pretty good, it's just being so out of position that you just need to get yourself in the right spot. If you can post face on videos of you doing this drill that would be great. 

 

Edited by Valtiel
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2 hours ago, Valtiel said:


Cheers, thats perfect. It confirms what I suspected from the DTL view plus a few other things.

PrimoFO1.gif.77aee7275e7e944529420a857bacbde9.gif

You do make a tiny bump towards your trail hip here, but it's mostly cosmetic. The rest of your body is stationary so this isn't functionally a pressure shift (this will be important later).

PrimoFO2.gif.d0fecd4ea48414918cdf47c38f022976.gif

Everything you do rotationally in the backswing is into your front side, you never shift back. This is like an extreme misinterpreted Stack and Tilt. You're also extending your torso/trunk backwards in an attempt to stay centered over the ball, putting a pronounced curve in your lower back. This is all very extreme in a bad way so my suggestions will be focused on undoing this.

This is also similar to the previous thread that I linked, but you take it even further by committing to *stay* moving towards the target the entire swing:

PrimoFO3.gif.c235452fad521056b4f5d2b4e10be74b.gif

This, in a vacuum, is the correct "re-centering" move in how you're bumping into your lead leg while finishing the backswing with your shoulders obviously closed/facing the target. The problem is that a lateral pressure shift like this should be executed in proportion to how much you shifted in the backswing. Big lateral shift off the ball? Big re-center back:

HerbertCenter.gif.2436983bfc96ae62b91e6119e7311e96.gif

Small lateral shift ? Small re-center:

CantlayCenter.gif.ebccfb0a7f4f5b74fa9c6d44afd90e00.gif

No lateral shift back? No re-center:

BrysonCenter.gif.e1b64f77280ff88fa0e3cc4d33afcb30.gif

And what Herbert, Cantlay, Bryson, and basically everyone else has in common?

HerbertBrysonCantlay.thumb.gif.b9eb4091e9b757b1a49b551f63c42587.gif

Bu
mping into or just slightly through the "front" of the hip box at the very beginning of the downswing with the head centered. Obviously this then:

Primohips.gif.9dc7fcf0b8fc433cf93bba9f8215cc06.gif

Is way out of bounds. How you got here could be a topic on conversation, but for now the best thing you can focus on is a drill that gets you out of this pattern.

The freezer drill with a re-centering step is what I recommend there. Basically swing to left arm parallel and while bumping over to your trail leg and stop:

AdamBump1.gif.b250b0a67e2d5533f197d0fed1ad6b34.gif

Then spend the rest of your backswing re-centering with the goal being to start your downswing with your hips in or fractionally ahead of the box:

AdamBump2.gif.c4823d477d7ae791a37cd2b860f85516.gif

I wouldn't try this at full power, but you *can* swing pretty hard at this, as hard as your hips will let you. Generally your instincts for how to use your lower half at this point are pretty good, it's just being so out of position that you just need to get yourself in the right spot. If you can post face on videos of you doing this drill that would be great. 

 


 

Wonderful feedback. This is exactly what I wanted. Frankly, I can do reps of the freezer drill at the house to ingrain between sessions (at least I assume).

 

So, in your opinion, should I start with some of the above suggestions a la Iceman’s thread, first - or start with the freezer drill/second set of suggestions, first? 

 

Thanks again - you have given me a renewed hope that with some hardwork we can right this ship. 

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15 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:


 

Wonderful feedback. This is exactly what I wanted. Frankly, I can do reps of the freezer drill at the house to ingrain between sessions (at least I assume).

 

So, in your opinion, should I start with some of the above suggestions a la Iceman’s thread, first - or start with the freezer drill/second set of suggestions, first? 

 

Thanks again - you have given me a renewed hope that with some hardwork we can right this ship. 


I would start with the freeze/re-center drill for sure, and take video of you doing it at home face on to confirm you're hitting the right spots. That specific focus is warranted IMO because of the stark difference between how well you're able to use your lower body BUT how out of position everything is when you do so. This is a classic example of something needing to be tailored specifically for the "student", because what you are doing is *very* atypical. Everyone I have ever seen that gets too ahead of the ball via either reverse pivot, excessive sliding, or some other flaw has dumped all their angles in the downswing to reach the ball, but you:

image.png.2d7e805c11969e51206c889bfab8e4a5.png

You've held on to those angles and resisted the "6-8 Ballerina" position as Monte describes it in a way i've never seen before. This shows that you know how to accomplish this from a physical standpoint and you just need to be shifted/re-aligned to do this in the right spot relative to the ball. It might work quite well straight away OR you could struggle with fat shots for a bit as you recalibrate delivering the club without being a mile ahead of it.

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@Valtiel

 

Just wanted to say thanks again. I've re-read this sequence of feedback multiple times and think I have a good understanding of what I need to do. 

 

As long as I have a good workday, I'm going to try to get out to the range this afternoon and set up with the camera face on to get some preliminary video. 

 

As I reflect back on my self-improvement journey over the last year, there was a time where I was using a similar sequence to the freezer drill as part of technical improvement/preshot swing feels. The only difference to the freezer drill that you prescribed vs. what I was doing is that, instead of finishing the back swing while shifting forward (after freezing), I was lowering the arms (a la Justin Rose Drill) while shifting forward from the frozen part of the drill. This focus actually had me lazering Driver/3w/5w but I was hitting a number of fat iron shots that were not playable so I abandoned the effort. I do not think, based on past experience, the freezer drill will be that foreign to me.

 

I am very hopeful. Last night I spent some time trying to understand the feels I need to "properly rotate" around the center of my hips in the backswing. Most prescribed feels that I found on WRX were not very helpful to execute the proper reals (via mirror feedback), but I was able to "think" about rotating around my tailbone while feeling my lead knee, "stay back - not protrude forward" which I think nailed the proper feels; I felt my right glute, hamstring, and right lower back tighten up significantly through the rotation exercise. Mirror feedback was positive. 

 

Going to start with freezer drill first and foremost. Will move on once I get that close to engrained.

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If you have that much foot flare in your right leg at address (and we might as well call it leg flare), you are not going to be able to move your leg properly...which makes it impossible to turn your torso into the leg properly. The 180 direction from where your right toe is pointed is where your right hip is going to try to go.

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I think you should stand a little further away from the ball and get your hands also away from your body. I don't like that set up, its not a natural position.  You have a lot of good things happening, young, athletic, etc and overall a decent swing, but I'd work on getting the hands in a better position at address to start. 

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Ok team, got to the range yesterday! Look @Valtiel your clear and concise swing feedback is famous now! That’s why I love it! 
 

Unfortunately reps weren’t ideal. There is only one part of the range where I can set up my camera when we are matts only and there was someone there. 
 

I was forced to practice waiting for them to leave so I could get some video, then, was under a time crunch so I could only get a few shots in before I had to leave. By the time of these videos I had hit probably 60 or so balls in 1.5 hours - drilling the same thing every ball. These weren’t my cleanest reps, but, I think they are good for a check in:

 

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3 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

Ok team, got to the range yesterday! Look @Valtiel your clear and concise swing feedback is famous now! That’s why I love it! 
 

Unfortunately reps weren’t ideal. There is only one part of the range where I can set up my camera when we are matts only and there was someone there. 
 

I was forced to practice waiting for them to leave so I could get some video, then, was under a time crunch so I could only get a few shots in before I had to leave. By the time of these videos I had hit probably 60 or so balls in 1.5 hours - drilling the same thing every ball. These weren’t my cleanest reps, but, I think they are good for a check in:

 


Cheers for the follow up. First thing to address now that you're moving laterally is this:

PrimoVTiger2.gif.b4d0c4a96d75bbe5d3b1c7607cdd4e49.gif

In addition to shifting too much (which is fine initially, i'd rather you be able to overdo it first) you aren't actually rotating but instead mostly sliding and, relative to that slide, you're reverse tilting your spine. In that your shifting both excessively and incorrectly, all understandable as your first attempt. I'll defer to Padraig's breakdown of this here and what you're meant to do. The section from 2:20 - 4:20 is specifically what you should focus on. He speaks both of the little "bump" we've discussed, but more critically what you're supposed to do *with* that bump. Right now you're aimlessly sliding while your head turns towards the target and I want you bump slightly and with the intention Padraig discussed while letting your head move with that instead of turning against it like you're doing above.
 

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On 2/10/2024 at 12:10 PM, Valtiel said:


Cheers for the follow up. First thing to address now that you're moving laterally is this:

PrimoVTiger2.gif.b4d0c4a96d75bbe5d3b1c7607cdd4e49.gif

In addition to shifting too much (which is fine initially, i'd rather you be able to overdo it first) you aren't actually rotating but instead mostly sliding and, relative to that slide, you're reverse tilting your spine. In that your shifting both excessively and incorrectly, all understandable as your first attempt. I'll defer to Padraig's breakdown of this here and what you're meant to do. The section from 2:20 - 4:20 is specifically what you should focus on. He speaks both of the little "bump" we've discussed, but more critically what you're supposed to do *with* that bump. Right now you're aimlessly sliding while your head turns towards the target and I want you bump slightly and with the intention Padraig discussed while letting your head move with that instead of turning against it like you're doing above.
 

@Valtiel - I have fully digested this feedback now. I think I understand Padraig's breakdown quite nicely - just need to drill it in front of a mirror for a little while. 

 

The head thing is going to be tough. I've spent time in the past trying to fix that awkward head tilt and have never even remotely been successful. I think my best starting point may be to drill the take away, bump, rotate feels for a few weeks etc until they get engrained.. then I can start with the head movement - does that sound like a fair path forward?

 

Side note - played this weekend on top of the range time and had really promising results. All my full swings produced really good results. I am very excited about this path forward. 

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2 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

@Valtiel - I have fully digested this feedback now. I think I understand Padraig's breakdown quite nicely - just need to drill it in front of a mirror for a little while. 

 

The head thing is going to be tough. I've spent time in the past trying to fix that awkward head tilt and have never even remotely been successful. I think my best starting point may be to drill the take away, bump, rotate feels for a few weeks etc until they get engrained.. then I can start with the head movement - does that sound like a fair path forward?

 

Side note - played this weekend on top of the range time and had really promising results. All my full swings produced really good results. I am very excited about this path forward. 

Side note - just found this, should I employ this feel to get my head working properly? Summary at 7:56 min mark:

 

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10 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

@Valtiel - I have fully digested this feedback now. I think I understand Padraig's breakdown quite nicely - just need to drill it in front of a mirror for a little while. 

 

The head thing is going to be tough. I've spent time in the past trying to fix that awkward head tilt and have never even remotely been successful. I think my best starting point may be to drill the take away, bump, rotate feels for a few weeks etc until they get engrained.. then I can start with the head movement - does that sound like a fair path forward?

 

Side note - played this weekend on top of the range time and had really promising results. All my full swings produced really good results. I am very excited about this path forward. 


Glad you're seeing improvements! Regarding the head tilt, I want to stress that its a product of how you're rotating, not something that you're just doing with your head. I've been responding to you, @Ironman_32, and @michaeld_2020 all around the same period and all three of you have versions of this same issue so i'm going to do a breakdown of this with all of you together while also collecting the disparate info that has been spread across the three different threads/DMs to put it in one place. My hope is that it will be helpful for you three while also being a guide that anyone else suffering from the same problems can follow. I will follow up here soon. 👍

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And also yes, that Shawn Clement video does a great job of going over the problem, although whether that feel he describes will work for you or not I do not know. I would rather breakdown the "why" so the issue itself can be better understood before just suggesting you strap a new feel onto something. 

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Always such highly intriguing stuff. Really trying to stay away from "random instruction" these days. 

 

But every time I read one of these @Valtiel threads, it seems to reinforce the fundamentals that I am working on. 

 

Always appreciate the visuals and insights dude! 

 

And thank you @Primo1868 for serving as the guinea pig this time around. You cajones are larger than my own. Much respect! 🙂 

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On 2/8/2024 at 8:36 PM, Valtiel said:



image.png.2d7e805c11969e51206c889bfab8e4a5.png

 

 

This seems, at least to me, to be a pretty classic position for the athletically competent, diligent working, but completely clueless golfer. I've made this swing many, many times in my golfing life. 

 

But, I'm coming around to the realization that this is an "impact" position - at least in relation to everything except the hands, arms, and golf club. 

 

The issue is getting from one to the other.  

 

This is what has led me to really think about my sternum in relation to impact position.

 

We've all got work to do, obviously.  

 

Best of luck on your journey! 

Edited by jholz
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Callaway RAZR Tour Hybrid 24* - Stock XStiff
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Ok @Primo1868, @Ironman_32, and @michaeld_2020, sorry for the wait. This one took a minute. Please take the time to get to the end, re-read as necessary, and follow up with questions if you have them.

image.png.c02542035c118c7ff3c7b0ef060a15ca.png

Using this image I want to address "tilts", in this case tilt away from the target, but it's relevant to both.The forward tilt that he we have towards the ball (left) and the slight backwards tilt we have away from the target (right) are two angles that more or less need to be maintained throughout the swing. The tilt away from the target will often increase slightly, especially with longer clubs, but critically you never want it to *decrease*, even when flighting the ball down. The forward tilt we have towards the ball is a little more malleable, but generally we want it to stay the same or *maybe* decrease slightly. Usually it won't increase, and we simply don't want to decrease more than a little if at all.

All of this is important because forward tilt establishes our body's positional relationship to the ball, and backwards tilt sets up the ability to drive forward towards the target with our lower half while keeping our upper half somewhat behind the ball, preserving the overall shape and low point of the swing arc so as to simply strike the ball correctly.

The problem with issues anywhere in address position, rotation, and pressure shifting is that they'll usually do something to screw up one of these tilts in such a way that you have to compensate elsewhere in the swing:

ThreeVPros.gif.b310187f9dc41ee05a366c88dfc9a6b9.gif

This is a lot of visual info so i'll try to break it down in chunks by person:

@michaeld_2020 You set up with a conventionally correct amount of tilt, but you lose it in the backswing and straighten up with your head coming towards the target. Based on your DTL videos this is largely due to improper pelvic rotation in the backswing (too much left hip forward) and i'll cover that more below as it will be relevant for everyone.

@Primo1868 Similar to Michael you're using your left side to rotate too much and you're resisting allowing your upper body to get behind the ball. You also have less tilt at address although nothing really "wrong" yet.

@Ironman_32 You have a problem right at address in that you have no tilt, you're basically straight up and down without any increase in it going back.

As you can see with Tiger, Rory, and Collin there is a nearly perfect maintaining of the spine tilt that was set at address all the way to the top. Tiger and Collin dip a little bit because they have a slightly deeper right hip turn than Rory who stays more centered, all good though as spine angle has remained.

For all three of you I would definitely recommend getting in front of a mirror, setting a tilt away from the "target", and practice making slow backswing where you keep that tilt. Don't worry about rotation yet, just feel what it feels like to *not* lose that tilt, which will likely feel weird initially. @Ironman_32 you'll want to feel this tilt prominently as you have none currently, @Primo1868 maybe a tiny bit more than pictured above, @michaeld_2020 you're good as is.

The bigger differences come at impact:

ThreeVPros2.1.gif.654e53e78eee390c61ddd285596b4dd7.gif

Note how everyone has tilt away from the target at impact in one way or another that increase slightly from the top of the backswing, the big difference is where it comes from and how it gets there.

@michaeld_2020 and @Primo1868 you two both suffer from what happens when the incorrect rotation in the backswing brings your upper body towards the target. In pivoting into your front side you kinda bring everything along for the ride and end up way out in front of the ball in terms of head position. @Ironman_32 you're forced to flip a lot more because you have to tilt backwards in order to get to the ball due to not having any tilt anywhere to begin with.

Michael and Primo, you two are going to have to contend with the fact that physical strength and fitness are causing you to brute force your way over these flaws, especially you Primo with that massive shift towards the target that sees you sliding much too far out in front of the ball. @Ironman_32 you're just going to have to get setup more athletically and commit to making the right moves with more intention, because right now your body is very passive and you're letting yourself be pushed and pulled by the momentum of the swing, hence why you're shifting late as a highlighted previously and why you're early extending.

All of you need a proper shift and turn into your trail side in the backswing to kick things off, so in addition to the AMG Hip Turn basics, I like this as a visual:

NicklausOverhead.gif.5b4c7803466b42e329ce15ec5d2e6290.gif

I pulled his rear aerial angle of Nicklaus from perfectgolfswingreview.net, just to give due credit. I've added the yellow lines and dots for illustrative purposes. With the orange line resting on top of his hips and the dots marking his left and right pockets, notice how much *more* his right side turns back compared to the left side turning forward. The angle exaggerates it a bit, but this is a visual to support what is covered in that AMG Hip Turn video. The right side gets pressured very very early in the backswing and that pressure is used to drive the right side *slightly* away from the target initially but primarily around behind us. This feels very weird and different from the more intuitive swinging forward of the front side to create rotation, and will initially feel like you can't "turn" as much this way. It will also feel like it's increasing your distance from the ball (which it is technically), but that slight increase is *needed* to maintain the tilts I talked about back at the beginning.

When you rotate incorrectly by bringing the left side forward, you're almost always forced to the lose some of your forward tilt (standing up slightly) and any tilt you have away from the target. This is because our brain inherently hates being in this position when moving athletically. Being tilted on two different axis' is unintuitive and our brain wants us to be standing straight up, which you'll notice is a tendency you all have to one degree or another. This needs to be unlearned, like doing a cartwheel which almost always looks like this initially:

Fail Work Out GIF by SVT

Because just like a golf swing, nothing about this is natural...

Jonas Brothers Gymnastics GIF by NBC

....yet we all know which one *looks* smoother and more intuitive.

So to recap; start with the mirror swings w/appropriate upper body tilt + practice swings getting used to the feel of keeping that tilt. Post videos if you can making swings with this in mind, then work on the right hip depth fundamentals covered in the AMG video and reinforced here. There is going to be a whole separate chunk dedicated to proper transition stuff, but first things first. 👍

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17 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Ok @Primo1868, @Ironman_32, and @michaeld_2020, sorry for the wait. This one took a minute. Please take the time to get to the end, re-read as necessary, and follow up with questions if you have them.

image.png.c02542035c118c7ff3c7b0ef060a15ca.png

Using this image I want to address "tilts", in this case tilt away from the target, but it's relevant to both.The forward tilt that he we have towards the ball (left) and the slight backwards tilt we have away from the target (right) are two angles that more or less need to be maintained throughout the swing. The tilt away from the target will often increase slightly, especially with longer clubs, but critically you never want it to *decrease*, even when flighting the ball down. The forward tilt we have towards the ball is a little more malleable, but generally we want it to stay the same or *maybe* decrease slightly. Usually it won't increase, and we simply don't want to decrease more than a little if at all.

All of this is important because forward tilt establishes our body's positional relationship to the ball, and backwards tilt sets up the ability to drive forward towards the target with our lower half while keeping our upper half somewhat behind the ball, preserving the overall shape and low point of the swing arc so as to simply strike the ball correctly.

The problem with issues anywhere in address position, rotation, and pressure shifting is that they'll usually do something to screw up one of these tilts in such a way that you have to compensate elsewhere in the swing:

ThreeVPros.gif.b310187f9dc41ee05a366c88dfc9a6b9.gif

This is a lot of visual info so i'll try to break it down in chunks by person:

@michaeld_2020 You set up with a conventionally correct amount of tilt, but you lose it in the backswing and straighten up with your head coming towards the target. Based on your DTL videos this is largely due to improper pelvic rotation in the backswing (too much left hip forward) and i'll cover that more below as it will be relevant for everyone.

@Primo1868 Similar to Michael you're using your left side to rotate too much and you're resisting allowing your upper body to get behind the ball. You also have less tilt at address although nothing really "wrong" yet.

@Ironman_32 You have a problem right at address in that you have no tilt, you're basically straight up and down without any increase in it going back.

As you can see with Tiger, Rory, and Collin there is a nearly perfect maintaining of the spine tilt that was set at address all the way to the top. Tiger and Collin dip a little bit because they have a slightly deeper right hip turn than Rory who stays more centered, all good though as spine angle has remained.

For all three of you I would definitely recommend getting in front of a mirror, setting a tilt away from the "target", and practice making slow backswing where you keep that tilt. Don't worry about rotation yet, just feel what it feels like to *not* lose that tilt, which will likely feel weird initially. @Ironman_32 you'll want to feel this tilt prominently as you have none currently, @Primo1868 maybe a tiny bit more than pictured above, @michaeld_2020 you're good as is.

The bigger differences come at impact:

ThreeVPros2.1.gif.654e53e78eee390c61ddd285596b4dd7.gif

Note how everyone has tilt away from the target at impact in one way or another that increase slightly from the top of the backswing, the big difference is where it comes from and how it gets there.

@michaeld_2020 and @Primo1868 you two both suffer from what happens when the incorrect rotation in the backswing brings your upper body towards the target. In pivoting into your front side you kinda bring everything along for the ride and end up way out in front of the ball in terms of head position. @Ironman_32 you're forced to flip a lot more because you have to tilt backwards in order to get to the ball due to not having any tilt anywhere to begin with.

Michael and Primo, you two are going to have to contend with the fact that physical strength and fitness are causing you to brute force your way over these flaws, especially you Primo with that massive shift towards the target that sees you sliding much too far out in front of the ball. @Ironman_32 you're just going to have to get setup more athletically and commit to making the right moves with more intention, because right now your body is very passive and you're letting yourself be pushed and pulled by the momentum of the swing, hence why you're shifting late as a highlighted previously and why you're early extending.

All of you need a proper shift and turn into your trail side in the backswing to kick things off, so in addition to the AMG Hip Turn basics, I like this as a visual:

NicklausOverhead.gif.5b4c7803466b42e329ce15ec5d2e6290.gif

I pulled his rear aerial angle of Nicklaus from perfectgolfswingreview.net, just to give due credit. I've added the yellow lines and dots for illustrative purposes. With the orange line resting on top of his hips and the dots marking his left and right pockets, notice how much *more* his right side turns back compared to the left side turning forward. The angle exaggerates it a bit, but this is a visual to support what is covered in that AMG Hip Turn video. The right side gets pressured very very early in the backswing and that pressure is used to drive the right side *slightly* away from the target initially but primarily around behind us. This feels very weird and different from the more intuitive swinging forward of the front side to create rotation, and will initially feel like you can't "turn" as much this way. It will also feel like it's increasing your distance from the ball (which it is technically), but that slight increase is *needed* to maintain the tilts I talked about back at the beginning.

When you rotate incorrectly by bringing the left side forward, you're almost always forced to the lose some of your forward tilt (standing up slightly) and any tilt you have away from the target. This is because our brain inherently hates being in this position when moving athletically. Being tilted on two different axis' is unintuitive and our brain wants us to be standing straight up, which you'll notice is a tendency you all have to one degree or another. This needs to be unlearned, like doing a cartwheel which almost always looks like this initially:

Fail Work Out GIF by SVT

Because just like a golf swing, nothing about this is natural...

Jonas Brothers Gymnastics GIF by NBC

....yet we all know which one *looks* smoother and more intuitive.

So to recap; start with the mirror swings w/appropriate upper body tilt + practice swings getting used to the feel of keeping that tilt. Post videos if you can making swings with this in mind, then work on the right hip depth fundamentals covered in the AMG video and reinforced here. There is going to be a whole separate chunk dedicated to proper transition stuff, but first things first. 👍

@Valtiel thanks, can't keep thanking you enough for the videos and the insight. It's funny, you point out stuff immediately and I'm just sitting here thinking "that's exactly how it feels" (like my body basically being passive through the whole swing. 

 

Definitely going to work through this and do some mirror drills, have to committ to the changes as they come. I did that a lot when I first starting playing and getting lessons, but have fallen off a little just as the years go by. Thanks again!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Team and Coach @Valtiel!

 

Wanted to give a check up after the comprehensive post on 2/17. I believe I’ve fully digested what was shared and have come up with a plan of attack for drilling things one at a time until I address them all. From 2/22 to 2/25 I was in “play box” because I had a lot of rounds scheduled. I did very little at home swing work or range swing work, just focused on warming up and playing to the best of my ability.
 

I did take some video for the check in on Sunday after my rounds and will go back into technical work for the next few weeks.

Part one of my plan is to work on until it’s ingrained: shift, rotate, shift, rotate feeling. This is easy to drill at home in my mirror.  What’s weird is when I drill it at home, my rotation looks good (as in right hip back, left hip back) but if I use the same feel over the ball I’m clearly not doing that. 

Videos (Face on):

 

 

 



 

will continue in another post…

Rotate the following:

Titliest TSR2 10* (@C1) Ventus TR Black 6X 

Titliest TSR2 16.5* (@A1) Fuji Speeder 8.3TS X

Titliest TSR2 21* (@A1) Fuji Atmos Blue 8X

Titliest 818H2 21* (@B3) Fuji Atmos Black 9X

Srixon ZXU 18*, ZX5 3-4, ZX7 5-PW

C-taper 125 S+ PVD Black, BBFCO "Black Ice Ice Ferrule", Pure DTX Purple Std +4 wraps

Cleveland RTX Zipcore Raw 50*, 54*, Full Face 58* DG Spinner +1"

Odyssey XG7 35" 63* / Custom Phantom X11 34" 69*

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Videos (DTL):

 

 

 

What has been a delightful surprise from all of this, “shift, rotate, shift, rotate” feel is I’ve struck the ball extremely solid. The feeling actually has me with some pretty consistent and reliable ball flight with only a few errant misses (ball still moving toward intended direction); much improved from my two way misses of the past. If you told me 4 months ago that this little effort would have me hitting the ball the way I was over the weekend, I’d have fainted. 
 

I will keep working and checking in at some frequency.

 

Bonus content: 

Striping my drive down 18 fairway at HT on Friday. 

 



 

Thanks again for all the help, @Valtiel!!

Rotate the following:

Titliest TSR2 10* (@C1) Ventus TR Black 6X 

Titliest TSR2 16.5* (@A1) Fuji Speeder 8.3TS X

Titliest TSR2 21* (@A1) Fuji Atmos Blue 8X

Titliest 818H2 21* (@B3) Fuji Atmos Black 9X

Srixon ZXU 18*, ZX5 3-4, ZX7 5-PW

C-taper 125 S+ PVD Black, BBFCO "Black Ice Ice Ferrule", Pure DTX Purple Std +4 wraps

Cleveland RTX Zipcore Raw 50*, 54*, Full Face 58* DG Spinner +1"

Odyssey XG7 35" 63* / Custom Phantom X11 34" 69*

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      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies
    • 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Tuesday #1
       
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Hardy - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Seamus Power - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Hadwin - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Kurt Kitayama - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nicolai Hojgaard - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JT Poston - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Dunlap - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Alex Smalley - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pau Gasol WITB (2x NBA Champion, 6x All-Star) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Josh Allen WITB (NFL Quarterback, Buffalo Bills) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Matt Kuchar - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JJ Spaun - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Svensson - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Scott (mini) - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      The course was closed all day today (Monday) because of rain so no WITBs today
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #3
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #4
      2024 Farmers Insurance Open - Tuesday #5
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Gary Woodland - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chris Gotterup - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ludvig Aberg - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Max Homa - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chan Kim - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Michael Block - SoCal PGA Section champ - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Hideki Matsuyama - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Collin Morikawa - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ryan Fox - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Robert MacIntyre - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Griffin - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Matthieu Pavon - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Alejandro Tosti - WITB - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jason Day WITB – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Daniel Berger WITB – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New 2Thumb grip - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Chesson Hadley's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Kohles' new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Vincent Whaley's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ryo Hisatsune's new Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Charley Hoffman - custom Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      TaylorMade Tour X - X3 putter with milled metal insert - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Maverick McNealy's custom Odyssey staff bag - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Ben Baller's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      New LA Golf single bend graphite putter shaft - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      Swag Golf's - Channel 4 Headcovers - 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf 120-gram prototype putter shaft – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf "gold edition" driver shaft – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
      L.A. Golf prototype putters with new "exotic metal" face insert – 2024 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 11 replies

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