Steep at Top of Transition, why?

[albvert]

My first move in transition is a steepening of the shaft. Anyone see what I’m doing that’s causing that? 

[Valtiel]

There seem to be some strange things going on with your grip that are causing, or at least definitely contributing to the break down of your wrist angles at the top of the swing:



This is a classic "steepening" move in that you're losing control of where the club is pointing at the top of the swing and allowing it to drift towards being across the line. The position itself isn't the problem, it's the fact that this movement happens right in transition and is in the opposite direction the clubhead needs to be traveling to properly "shallow", or at least *not* steepen. This is what stands out to me:



In your downswing and follow through we can see your hands are completely disconnected. Your left thumb should be tucked into your right hand, somewhere in the crease formed by your right thumb pad when your hand is closed, like Max Homa here:



Under no circumstances should we be seeing your thumb the way we do in this vid as it's position down the shaft and under the right hand provides vital stability for the club at the top of the swing, among other things. Your left hand is also completely turned down even after release which combined with the very bowed position at the top suggests you're trying something strange in your approach, or you're compensating for an injury of some sort. Mode details about that or whatever might be relevant there would be helpful.

[albvert]

I struggled severely with closing the club face at one point. The bowed wrist and turned down release is something that kinda fixed it, but it looks like it has gotten too extreme. 
 

I had never noticed the breakdown of my grip. I wonder if that’s due to me excessively bowing my wrist. 

[Binson]

Why is it necessarily a problem? Is there something you don't like in the ball flight? Is it uncomfortable?

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, albvert said:

I struggled severely with closing the club face at one point. The bowed wrist and turned down release is something that kinda fixed it, but it looks like it has gotten too extreme. 
 

I had never noticed the breakdown of my grip. I wonder if that’s due to me excessively bowing my wrist. 

It looks like you just set your hands up that way to begin with, because it would be almost impossible for your left thumb to be properly tucked into your right hand and then completely come out during the swing. We'd need to see face on video for sure, but regardless its definitely part of why you're losing control of the club and steepening in transition. 

[Valtiel]

5 minutes ago, Binson said:

Why is it necessarily a problem? Is there something you don't like in the ball flight? Is it uncomfortable?

Because steepening the shaft in transition means that additional compensations have to made later in the downswing to control clubface and low point which are no longer correctly aligned to the swing path, compensations that wills always produce less consistent contact and flight. 

[Binson]

6 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Because steepening the shaft in transition means that additional compensations have to made later in the downswing to control clubface and low point which are no longer correctly aligned to the swing path, compensations that wills always produce less consistent contact and flight. 

That's not necessarily the case though. Lots of tour players and champions both current and historical "steepen" in transition.  There is good steepening and bad steepening.

 

 If you think of there being an "ideal" shaft plane for a shot for a player, there are 2 primary ways of getting there.  One is by being above the plane entering transition and "shallowing" onto the plane of delivery. The other is to take it back more inside, low, then up so it "steepens" onto the plane of delivery.  Both can ultimately deliver on the same plane.  

 

I'd be curious what your delivery numbers are in terms of club path, face angle, angle of attack, and dynamic loft.  Based on the ball flight I see in the video, your face control (on that shot) is down the line neutral, with an in-to-out path as the shot starts straight then falls to the left.  These are not typical symptoms of the wrong type of steepening, where it turns into a wipey fade.

[albvert]

14 minutes ago, Binson said:

That's not necessarily the case though. Lots of tour players and champions both current and historical "steepen" in transition.  There is good steepening and bad steepening.

 

 If you think of there being an "ideal" shaft plane for a shot for a player, there are 2 primary ways of getting there.  One is by being above the plane entering transition and "shallowing" onto the plane of delivery. The other is to take it back more inside, low, then up so it "steepens" onto the plane of delivery.  Both can ultimately deliver on the same plane.  

 

I'd be curious what your delivery numbers are in terms of club path, face angle, angle of attack, and dynamic loft.  Based on the ball flight I see in the video, your face control (on that shot) is down the line neutral, with an in-to-out path as the shot starts straight then falls to the left.  These are not typical symptoms of the wrong type of steepening, where it turns into a wipey fade.

I’d have to get on a sim to get those numbers. It would be interesting to see what they actually are. 

 

My main issue is low point control. It isn’t always an issue when I’m striking it well, but it’s something I want to improve on with a more consistent swing. I’ve gotten to the point where on a good day, my face control and path produce a consistent draw. My biggest miss now is a slight chunk or thin shot. 

 

[albvert]

39 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

It looks like you just set your hands up that way to begin with, because it would be almost impossible for your left thumb to be properly tucked into your right hand and then completely come out during the swing. We'd need to see face on video for sure, but regardless its definitely part of why you're losing control of the club and steepening in transition. 

I do have the tendency of partly taking my right hand off of the club at the top and losing that hand/grip structure. It’s something I started noticing when I began bowing my lead wrist. 

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, Binson said:

That's not necessarily the case though. Lots of tour players and champions both current and historical "steepen" in transition.  There is good steepening and bad steepening.

 

 If you think of there being an "ideal" shaft plane for a shot for a player, there are 2 primary ways of getting there.  One is by being above the plane entering transition and "shallowing" onto the plane of delivery. The other is to take it back more inside, low, then up so it "steepens" onto the plane of delivery.  Both can ultimately deliver on the same plane.  

 

I'd be curious what your delivery numbers are in terms of club path, face angle, angle of attack, and dynamic loft.  Based on the ball flight I see in the video, your face control (on that shot) is down the line neutral, with an in-to-out path as the shot starts straight then falls to the left.  These are not typical symptoms of the wrong type of steepening, where it turns into a wipey fade.

Agreed with all that, it's that this...



...is definitely bad steepening. The club is coming down vertical which you'll never see anywhere in high level golf. Your "good" steepening is as you said, flatter/under plane and "steepening" into it, a'la Fowler:



 

 

3 hours ago, albvert said:

I do have the tendency of partly taking my right hand off of the club at the top and losing that hand/grip structure. It’s something I started noticing when I began bowing my lead wrist. 

That can definitely be part of it too, your hands shouldn't ever come uncoupled from the club, especially anywhere in transition.