Can you play well with a flip? And achieving great scores with other swing flaws.

[MBAndrews21]

Is it possible to get to scratch with a flippy/no shaft lean impact? 

 

Obviously you want to work to improve flaws (or what is causing the “flaw” 😉)…but how far can you get with poor mechanics?

 

Has anyone seen any really good players with poor mechanics?

 

Just looking to start a discussion on how or if certain players can overachieve given their mechanical flaws. 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

12 minutes ago, MBAndrews21 said:

Is it possible to get to scratch with a flippy/no shaft lean impact? 

 

Obviously you want to work to improve flaws (or what is causing the “flaw” 😉)…but how far can you get with poor mechanics?

 

Has anyone seen any really good players with poor mechanics?

 

Just looking to start a discussion on how or if certain players can overachieve given their mechanical flaws. 

 

Tom Kim

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Tom Kim

Not getting stuck and flipping though!  Looks like perfect torso movement to me...

[iacas]

Yes, you can get to at least +2 or so with a nearly vertical shaft at impact. Seen it done.

[virtuoso]

Yeah, scratch is averaging 75 at the local muni. Pretty achievable for guys with the following qualifications:

 

1. Reasonable hand-eye….not great, reasonable

2. Flip isnt bad enough to actually cause positive AOA with an iron

3. Enough speed to hit a driver 250 yards total in dry conditions (225 ish carry)

4. One standard pitching technique that produces solid contact most of the time

   4.a. A standard bunker technique that gets the ball out of the bunker the first time.

5.  An accurate understanding of the real carry distances of the mid and short irons.

6. Owns a range finder

7. Practices breaking 4 foot putts and speed control on 15 to 30 foot putts 1 hour per week.

Edited March 26 by virtuoso

[Liveonce]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, scratch is averaging 75 at the local muni. Pretty achievable for guys with the following qualifications:

 

1. Reasonable hand-eye….not great, reasonable

2. Flip isnt bad enough to actually cause positive AOA with an iron

3. Enough speed to hit a driver 250 yards total in dry conditions (225 ish carry)

4. One standard pitching technique that produces solid contact most of the time

   4.a. A standard bunker technique that gets the ball out of the bunker the first time.

5.  An accurate understanding of the real carry distances of the mid and short irons.

6. Owns a range finder

7. Practices breaking 4 foot putts and speed control on 15 to 30 foot putts 1 hour per week.

At what distance of a course? 225 off the tee from 6500 would give you quite a bit of an approach on most holes. 

[virtuoso]

7 minutes ago, Liveonce said:

At what distance of a course? 225 off the tee from 6500 would give you quite a bit of an approach on most holes. 

Yep, that’s the bare minimum, so on a wet day with zero roll, you’d probably shoot 78, but still keeping your 75 avg feasible.

 

added: yes, if you walk back to the tips all the time, you better put a little more speed on it.

Edited March 26 by virtuoso

[vernon]

I need to watch Tom Kim a little more closely.

 

Never noticed that.

[xabia]

I am currently playing best golf of my life with a disgusting flip and no shaft lean - 

 

great hand eye coordination 

I know exactly how pathetically short my irons are going to go and compensate accordingly with club selection and not ego

I NEVER hit it OB off the tee (if not far anymore)

 

get up and down like a demon when my trash wipey iron strikes don't go as planned

 

add it all up and I live in the mid to low 70's just by acknowledging the above when playing

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

added: yes, if you walk back to the tips all the time, you better put a little more speed on it.

 

But also, if the tips are rated 75.1… you might not need a little more speed. 😄

 

I will just say this… before I became an instructor… I got down to a 1.4. My swing was awful. I could hit it reasonably far (traditionally lofted 5I 190, so not even super long), I could chip and putt, and I had good clubface control — I rarely hit it too far offline.

 

I once went about three months thinning everything a groove or two. You can shoot some really good rounds of golf doing that, wholly unsatisfying rounds of golf, thinning everything a little. They go straighter, they land on the front of the green and bounce a bit more… and they feel like crap. I shot more 73s that I couldn't stand than you can shake a stick at, and the guys shooting 85 had no clue why I was so annoyed at my play (ball striking) the whole time, because to them it looked fabulous. Never mind that my clubs rarely touched the ground. 😉 

[skim4]

I was around scratch as a junior with the flippy-ness I have now. The issue isn't being around scratch with a timing/flip while just playing golf with friends or for handicap. Its only like 8 of your 20 last rounds I think? 

 

In competition the stressers come out and the flip stops working as well. Unless youre Tom Kim I guess. So ya end up with that snap hook OB on #17 while playing well in a tournament. 

[ac6]

1 minute ago, skim4 said:

I was around scratch as a junior with the flippy-ness I have now. The issue isn't being around scratch with a timing/flip while just playing golf with friends or for handicap. Its only like 8 of your 20 last rounds I think? 

 

In competition the stressers come out and the flip stops working as well. Unless youre Tom Kim I guess. So ya end up with that snap hook OB on #17 while playing well in a tournament.

 

TK practices every day. Plus he's way more talented than most. So he can make it work. 

 

I've also fought a flip my whole life, was scratch as a junior as well. It's a useful compensation when you're a 75 lb kid trying to launch it off the tee, but you just need a lot of reps to time it up. For me the worst wasn't the snap hooked drive under pressure (those suck too) but rather the confidence-killing chunked wedge shot after a good drive, lol

[st1800e]

Your topic was the subject of a golf digest article decades ago.  In that article, I can’t remember who, someone won the US amateur with a pronounced pull draw.  Just aimed right.  

 

[virtuoso]

31 minutes ago, ac6 said:

 

TK practices every day. Plus he's way more talented than most. So he can make it work. 

 

I've also fought a flip my whole life, was scratch as a junior as well. It's a useful compensation when you're a 75 lb kid trying to launch it off the tee, but you just need a lot of reps to time it up. For me the worst wasn't the snap hooked drive under pressure (those suck too) but rather the confidence-killing chunked wedge shot after a good drive, lol

Your last sentence captured it. The timing of a flip is not much more challenging than someone that leans the handle forward. The issue is that the early flip presents geometry at impact that makes it less statistically likely to hit it solid. Most flippers actually hit a driver off a tee reasonably well. They can’t hit an iron or wedge at all once the AOA goes positive. They just skull or fat it.

Edited March 26 by virtuoso