Hand path during downswing

[Geomane]

Wanted to hear opinions on the elite golf school video below. They are teaching a deep hand path during the backswing, followed by an outward moment of the hands during the downswing. Contrary to the popular Justin rose drill of hands down during the downswing. 
 

 

Edited April 17 by Geomane

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Geomane said:

They are teaching a deep hand path during the backswing, followed by an outward moment of the hands during the downswing. 

 

I wouldn't say they are teaching anything "deep" here necessarily, just using one of the many very common hand path mistakes that people make as a reference point for how certain things need to be opposite in the golf swing from what a lot of people intuitively do. IMO he is 100% correct about how if hand path (or grip pivot point as he referred to it as here) was always highlighted that we'd almost always see the hands coming slightly out in relation to where they went back in high level players. It's often quite close, but the point is to make the illustration that they rarely if ever come *in* in the downswing, whereas they do constantly with average players trying to manufacture an inside path. I'll work up some visual examples later. 

 

Edited April 17 by Valtiel

[baudi]

Not bad instruction but it looks a bit overcomplicated.

I see  2 instructors: one wearing a black cap and the other a white cap. BC tells the story and  WC confirms (t)his story.

Unfortunately BC seems to work his arms away from the chest to prove his point where luckily WC states the “ hub path ‘ goes  out mainly due to chest rotation.

 One of the ancient school analogies was to use the imagery of holding/ keeping a box  between the trail arm and the chest for arm structure. I doubt this imagery and lingo is any longer allowed by the new golf school thought police since it is feel only and not supported by modern tech. There is also an antique training aid power angle pro to feed similar swing action. I reckon this tool is also forbidden today for the same reasons.  

 

Edited April 18 by baudi

[JamesFoote]

I’ll be following this topic with interest. I’ve always sucked my hands back in the downswing, causing low point to be further back and hitting the typical block/hook that a stuck position gets.

 

Is this at odds with the AMG video that discusses dropping the hands at the start of the downswing or are they discussing similar movements, it’s just that Elites video is also taking chest rotation into account as well?

[Hilts1969]

Gave up when they started discussing hubs. Anyhow no one good actually thinks people should use their arms as suggested outside of feels. As per though when someone likes a feel and promotes it they say theirs works but don't treat the other in the same way.

 

 

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, Geomane said:

Wanted to hear opinions on the elite golf school video below. They are teaching a deep hand path during the backswing, followed by an outward moment of the hands during the downswing. Contrary to the popular Justin rose drill of hands down during the downswing.

 

1 hour ago, JamesFoote said:

Is this at odds with the AMG video that discusses dropping the hands at the start of the downswing or are they discussing similar movements, it’s just that Elites video is also taking chest rotation into account as well?

Some visuals:



Butch-era Tiger is the perfect example of this point about hand path relationship and how he tightened up. His takeaway was definitely not deep or inside, Butch had him getting his hands working out/up more due to the fact that his "amateur" swing was more inside and across the line, very Rory-esque. The point is though that hands virtually never have a steeper plane coming down than when they went up. Even when slight, it's still "outside" the path going back when it counts.

But ok, that's Tiger....the pinnacle of perfection during this time period, what about someone FAR weirder? Surely Matthew Wolff would be an exception here....



Almost, but nope. He has probably the biggest "loop" in pro golf, but his hand path coming down is still flatter and outside his path going back, even if it gets there slightly later. And Rory? The king the flat/inside swing:



Same thing. It's closer still as he has long been an underplane/inside swinger, but the path of his hands coming down still draws a flatter line than the path going back. His "drop" in transition puts him on the edge of getting too deep, but his arms accelerate back out in front of his body creating a flatter path from there to the ball. This is both a trademark of his and one he occasionally laments as it causes him two way miss issues sometimes, as any overly inside path tends to.

You can contain the hand paths of probably 99% or pro golfers in between Rory and Wolff with most being far more "boring". The bigger point here is that while you might find the occasionally pro the comes close to violating this guideline...you can find about a dozen people that do on any given driving range, very very often in exactly the ways described in the video above where the hand path drops down and behind, creating an inside path only by virtue of the fact that it's the result of what happens when you have to rescue your hands last second to make contact.

 

Edited April 17 by Valtiel

[KD1]

10 hours ago, JamesFoote said:

Is this at odds with the AMG video that discusses dropping the hands at the start of the downswing or are they discussing similar movements, it’s just that Elites video is also taking chest rotation into account as well?

 

16 hours ago, Geomane said:

Contrary to the popular Justin rose drill of hands down during the downswing.

 

The Justin rose drill is about lowering the hands/arms in front of your chest/trail thigh, while your back is to the target. When they demonstrate it in this video they're intentionally putting the elbows and hands behind themselves. The bad motion that Elite Golf Schools is demonstrating is bad... but it's also not what is actually taught.

Edited April 17 by KD1

[Hilts1969]

57 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

 

The Justin rose drill is about lowering the hands/arms in front of your chest/trail thigh, while your back is to the target. When they demonstrate it in this video they're intentionally putting the elbows and hands behind themselves. They bad motion that Elite Golf Schools is demonstrating is bad... but it's also not what is actually taught.

 

One could argue its a little dishonest tbh, anyhow roughly speaking at the top of the backswing the hands are somewhere around the right shoulder, at P6 they are around the right thigh.

 

Not sure how that isn't a pretty obvious downward movement of the handpath independent of the pivot.

[Jpost]

I’m also interested in this discussion, no matter what I do I can’t seem to get my hands to shallow in a full swing, however, watching the club head it does seem have that action not perfectly but far closer.

[baudi]

Reverse slot swing is still missing in the analysis. 

[virtuoso]

Well, a better way to look at this stuff is to understand that in 3D, the downswing hand path is both outside the backswing hand path and more narrow. The main reason is that the kinematic chain is happening in reverse, but also in a more compressed sequence. IE, P5 will not be the mirror image of P3 because there is a delay in the throw motion at P5. What we are discussing here is the DTL 2D difference between the 2 reference points. That’s a cleaner way to look at it and provides a more full understanding. The video above is describing this phenomenon is an absurdly exaggerated way.

[jonsnow]

With all the "dude" bro talk & the couch dragged into the hitting bay, it makes me wonder if they are filming this in their fraternity house...

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, jonsnow said:

With all the "dude" bro talk & the couch dragged into the hitting bay, it makes me wonder if they are filming this in their fraternity house...

It’s called “Gankas Lite”.

[gato_plomo]

On 4/16/2024 at 9:33 PM, Geomane said:

Wanted to hear opinions on the elite golf school video below. They are teaching a deep hand path during the backswing, followed by an outward moment of the hands during the downswing. Contrary to the popular Justin rose drill of hands down during the downswing. 
 

 

To me, this seems to be more working on the feeling of getting unstuck, vs saying other people are wrong. Not really much different than what Monte explains tbh. None of this seems crazy to me.. just seems like a way of explaining how to fix a swing fault

Edited April 23 by gato_plomo