Lost Ball -- Do you have to look for it

[jo_bus]

I couldn't find anything in the USGA rules saying that a player is required to look for a lost ball. I know the rules say you can take no longer than 5 minutes to search for your ball - but do you have to take all five minutes -- setting aside pace-of-play issues?

 

Example...player hits his approach shot into bushes 10 yards to the left of the green. There is no out of bounds near the bushes where the approach shot is likely to lay. The player hits a provisional ball to within a couple feet of the flag.

 

If the player finds his ball in the bushes, he not only has to deal w/ hitting it out of the bushes but it is a slightly uphill shot to the green with a bunker between the player and the green.

 

Can the player call his first shot a lost ball w/o looking for it? Can he take the stroke penalty and play the provisional ball w/o spending any time looking for his original ball?

 

If so, what if the players opponent (keen to what the player is doing) searches for the ball and finds it? Is the player still required to play it?

 

I'm not making this up...this really happened in my group today.

[mat562]

You can't 'declare' the ball lost, but as soon as you make a stroke with the provisional ball that's closer to the hole than the first ball is likely to lie you effectively abandon the first ball and the score would stand as made with the provisional ball..

 

Even if the first ball is subsequently found it's a moot point and the ball would be classed as 'lost' even though it clearly wasn't.

 

A recent thread on here discussed this very situation (albeit hypothetically).

[Jaylasvegas]

example, if you hit a ball into a forest, and then retee and declare it your provsional, you dont not need to look for the first ball that was lost

[Jaylasvegas]

I couldn't find anything in the USGA rules saying that a player is required to look for a lost ball. I know the rules say you can take no longer than 5 minutes to search for your ball - but do you have to take all five minutes -- setting aside pace-of-play issues?

 

Example...player hits his approach shot into bushes 10 yards to the left of the green. There is no out of bounds near the bushes where the approach shot is likely to lay. The player hits a provisional ball to within a couple feet of the flag.

 

If the player finds his ball in the bushes, he not only has to deal w/ hitting it out of the bushes but it is a slightly uphill shot to the green with a bunker between the player and the green.

 

Can the player call his first shot a lost ball w/o looking for it? Can he take the stroke penalty and play the provisional ball w/o spending any time looking for his original ball?

 

If so, what if the players opponent (keen to what the player is doing) searches for the ball and finds it? Is the player still required to play it?

 

I'm not making this up...this really happened in my group today.

this happend in the BigBreak UK when Donatello hit his ball into a bush and didnt want to look for it,but as he was looking around his competetor found the ball and DD had to play the ball that was in the bush

[KevCarter]

Mat has the answer partially correct. What a lot of folks don't understand is that you don't have to call another ball a provisional, you may simply put another ball into play under stroke and distance. A ball can't be declared lost, you must take an action. Here is the definition of a lost ball along with a list of actions that define it as lost.

 

So, to answer your question, no, you do not have to search...

 

Lost Ball

 

A ball is deemed "lost" if:

 

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

 

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

 

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a); or

 

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1); or

 

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

[Jaylasvegas]

jo Bus were you playing match play or stroke play?

[mat562]

True Kev. By the sounds of it the OP's chap had declared a provisional though before stiffing the second go at it so I was going along that line.

 

You're obviously right about the second scenario should he have just whacked another one without making any announcement though.

[KevCarter]

True Kev. By the sounds of it the OP's chap had declared a provisional though before stiffing the second go at it so I was going along that line.

 

You're obviously right about the second scenario should he have just whacked another one without making any announcement though.

 

Mat,

 

You are of course 100% correct. My post was very poorly worded in reference to yours. I did not mean to imply you gave an incorrect answer. I apologize for my verbiage.

 

Cheers,

Kevin

[mat562]

No problem Kev.

 

The provisonal/not a provisional versus a supposed lost ball is always a bit of a thorny issue.

 

I can remember playing in an amateur event with a lad who pulled a tee shot into what looked like amazonian rain forest and then angrily grabbed another ball from his bag whilst muttering 'that one's a goner' (or words to that effect that were perhaps more fruity) before striping a tee shot down the middle. Suffice to say the word 'provisional' was never uttered, nor anything like 'I'll hit another, just in case..' In fact, I can remember him muttering something about 'three off the ******* tee..'

 

We walked down the fairway, keeping our distance from the lad who was doing a passable impression of Tommy Bolt by this time, and I then played my second to the green as did the other lad in the group. As we walked up to 'Tommy's' second ball, a chap called out 'I've found it!' and we trooped across to see his first ball sitting pretty in a clear area in the trees with a relatively clear shot to the green.

 

Knowing the rule I dreaded what was bound to happen next and, true to form, it was pointed out by the third player in the group that his second ball was in play since he'd not declared that he was hitting a provisional and had effectively taken a stroke and distance penalty by hitting three off the tee.

 

The next five minutes generated a better fireworks display than the Chinese managed last week in Beijing and the rest of the round was played with an atmosphere between Tommy and the other lad a bit like the US and Russia had between them throughout the 1960s. At the end of the round handshakes were refused and we had a sort of golfing version of the Olympic basketball final in Munich going on.

 

It pays to know the rules, but being the bloke to quote them can be fraught with danger.

 

As far as I remember a similar thing happened to a Swiss golfer called Paulo Quirici many moons ago in a qualifier for the World Cup that almost caused the poor lad to have a breakdown.

[KevCarter]

:) ;) ;)

 

Great story Mat!!!

 

If I were as good with words as you, I would get into a LOT less trouble! :beach:

 

Kevin

[jo_bus]

Thanks for the conversation. This was stroke play.

[KevCarter]

jo_bus,

 

Actually, stroke or match play doesn't matter. In match play, your opponent may try harder to find your original ball than would a fellow competitor, but the ruling would be the same in either form of play...

 

Kevin

[777twist]

jo_bus,

 

Actually, stroke or match play doesn't matter. In match play, your opponent may try harder to find your original ball than would a fellow competitor, but the ruling would be the same in either form of play...

 

Kevin

 

 

Just to be clear... based on what Jo has posted, is there any kind of time for the competitor to find the first ball? We have 5 min to find our own balls, but what about the competitor? What about if the competitor said, "found it" but really didn't just hoping to have the other guy come back before hitting his provisional any further, is there any penalty for that?

 

See this is kind of what I was saying about a loophole in the rules for provisionals. Sure we could hit a 2nd shot and not call it a provisional, but if we do, it kind of gives us options. And the option comes from basically...if the provisional was a sweet shot, then abandon the first ball, but if the provisional was also horrid, then it probably would pay to see if the first one is in or hittable.

[jo_bus]

It seems to me, after reading the responses to this thread, the other active thread where this is/has been discussed, and Rule 28, even if the original ball is found (by the competitor or anyone else) before the player makes a stroke (w/ their provisional) from where the original ball is likely to be located, the player can deem the original ball unplayable and continue w/ the provisional (under Rule 28 clause A).

[hbear]

Actually if the original ball is found (by player of competitor) the provisional can no longer be in play.

If one was to declare an unplayable and elect to take stroke and distance....they would have to go back to replay...the provisional wouldn't count.

 

I'd assume this is to prevent the player from getting an advantage by being able to pick and choose which ball he wants to play after he knows the result.

 

E.g. Player hits ball 2nd shot into jungle...declares and hits his provisional and jars it (now making par with his "provisional")...

 

The rules prevent the player from gaining an advantage as it doesn't give him the option of finding his first then declaring an unplayable (because you can declare an unplayable anywhere except a water hazard) and taking his "provisional" which he put in for par because it would be a better score than trying to get up and down from the jungle for par.

 

To add: The point of the provisional is to help speed up play (allowing the player not to have to take the walk of shame back and rehit when he knows there might be a chance he'll need to).......not to gain an unfair advantage be being able to pick and choose if he wanted to use his provisional based on how well he hit his provisional.

 

27-2c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned

 

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

 

Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.

 

Since the provisional ball is now abandoned (original ball found in play), relief procedures for the original ball now start from scratch.

E.g. if original ball is declared unplayable, the option of rehitting from original location is still given, but must be redone as the provisional ball played from the same location prior has been abandonded.

[jo_bus]

hbear....thank-you for the clarification - much appreciated. It makes much more sense and aligns more w/ the spirit of the game.

 

I assume the rules don't accomodate a player hitting a shot in the anticipation the original shot will be unplayable? For example, the rules accomodate a player hitting a provisional in anticipation the original ball can not be found. No such accomodations can be made for an unplayable lie?

[larrybud]

this happend in the BigBreak UK when Donatello hit his ball into a bush and didnt want to look for it,but as he was looking around his competetor found the ball and DD had to play the ball that was in the bush

 

I don't understand how this can be. Your competitor can't identify your ball, only you can.

[jjj912]

this happend in the BigBreak UK when Donatello hit his ball into a bush and didnt want to look for it,but as he was looking around his competetor found the ball and DD had to play the ball that was in the bush

 

I don't understand how this can be. Your competitor can't identify your ball, only you can.

 

If a competitor finds what he believes to be your ball, you must identify it. Refusal to do so is grounds for a DQ.

[LP28]

Not if you identified your golf balls to each other prior to teeing off. Then your competitor can ID your ball............and that's what happend on the Big Break w/ DD("pull that tape tight!!" :) )

[jjj912]

hbear....thank-you for the clarification - much appreciated. It makes much more sense and aligns more w/ the spirit of the game.

 

I assume the rules don't accomodate a player hitting a shot in the anticipation the original shot will be unplayable? For example, the rules accomodate a player hitting a provisional in anticipation the original ball can not be found. No such accomodations can be made for an unplayable lie?

 

Hitting provisionals for unplayable lies is beyond the scope of the Rule. Remember, to hit a provisional ball there must exist the possiblity that the ball is lost outside of a water hazard or is out of bounds. Just because the ball may be unplayable is not a reason to hit a provisional.

[larrybud]

this happend in the BigBreak UK when Donatello hit his ball into a bush and didnt want to look for it,but as he was looking around his competetor found the ball and DD had to play the ball that was in the bush

 

I don't understand how this can be. Your competitor can't identify your ball, only you can.

 

If a competitor finds what he believes to be your ball, you must identify it. Refusal to do so is grounds for a DQ.

Where is that written? The Lost Ball Rule says

 

"Lost Ball

 

A ball is deemed "lost" if:

 

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it

"

[KevCarter]

this happend in the BigBreak UK when Donatello hit his ball into a bush and didnt want to look for it,but as he was looking around his competetor found the ball and DD had to play the ball that was in the bush

 

I don't understand how this can be. Your competitor can't identify your ball, only you can.

 

If a competitor finds what he believes to be your ball, you must identify it. Refusal to do so is grounds for a DQ.

Where is that written? The Lost Ball Rule says

 

"Lost Ball

 

A ball is deemed "lost" if:

 

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it

"

 

27-2c/2 Ball Believed to Be Original Found; Player Wishes to Ignore It and Continue Play with Provisional Ball

 

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player plays his tee shot into a heavy thicket. Since his ball may be lost, he hits a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. In the circumstances, it is advantageous to the player not to find his original ball. Accordingly, the player does not search for the original ball and walks directly toward his provisional ball. While the player is on his way to his provisional ball, a ball believed to be his original is found. The player is advised that his original ball may have been found. May the player ignore this ball and continue play with the provisional ball?

 

A. No. The player must inspect the ball that has been found and, if it is the player’s original ball, he must continue play with it (or proceed under the unplayable ball Rule). The provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c. See also Decision 27-2b/1.

[atlanta golfer]

Another option would be to just declare the first ball unplayable. The player alone is responsible for making this determination. But once you do that, then your next ball is in play regardless. No such thing as a provisional in case the ball is unplayable. A post up above basically says the same thing. The disadvantage to this is you would really need to walk up and view the ball, then walk back to the tee. So you are wasting some time versus hitting the provisional.