Question for Rules Experts

[bheffern]

Ball marked by opponent / competitor not told

From a round my dad played:

My dad and his opponent both hit shots on the green to approximately the same place (within 5 feet). The opponent marks my dad's ball without permission and does not tell him that the ball has been marked. The balls are only distinguishable upon close inspection (both Pro V1s with green dots). My dad, seeing only one ball on the green, which has green dots, plays the opponent's ball and holes it. Only after playing his opponent's ball does the opponent tell my dad that his ball was already marked and was in the opponent's pocket. My dad takes a 2 stroke penalty and loses the hole (skins).

I know that if someone marks your ball without permission and you subsequently play the wrong ball (from the right spot) as a result, you are not penalized. But I've never heard about playing the wrong ball from the wrong spot (obviously takes a jerk move like this to make it happen). Can anyone help--I'm pretty sure what they did during play was incorrect. Thanks.

[jaskanski]

your father was correct in taking a 2 stroke penalty for playing the wrong ball. However, his opponent was also subject to a 1 stroke penalty for lifting the ball without authority (rule 18-3b). The main thing is your father had the grace to take his medicine. His opponent however is a complete cad for knowingly allowing your father to play a wrong ball - golf is a game of honour and it is just not in the spirit of the game. You would be justified in reporting the matter to the committee.

[jjj912]

Did the opponent do this on purpose with the intent that your Dad would play the wrong ball? If so then in a tournament I think the Committee would have been justified in disqualifying the opponent.

[bheffern]

Did the opponent do this on purpose with the intent that your Dad would play the wrong ball? If so then in a tournament I think the Committee would have been justified in disqualifying the opponent.

 

Yes, he said he did it to "teach him a lesson" just after my dad putted the wrong ball. Unfortunately, it wasn't in a tournament, so there was no committee, but that is some consolation.

[Hathstauwk]

Did the opponent do this on purpose with the intent that your Dad would play the wrong ball? If so then in a tournament I think the Committee would have been justified in disqualifying the opponent.

 

Yes, he said he did it to "teach him a lesson" just after my dad putted the wrong ball. Unfortunately, it wasn't in a tournament, so there was no committee, but that is some consolation.

 

to teach him a lesson? What a jerk, is more like it. He did this to your dad.......was the competitor your grandfather? If not, that is a ridiculous thing to do to someone.

 

To do this and then claim he loses the skin because of the penalty is pretty silly. I suppose this other guy sleeps well at night knowing he took your dad's money in a dirty way. Karma is a funny thing. He will find out sometime, I am sure.

[limpwrist]

Your father shouldn't have been penalized in my opinion as his own ball was out of play when the opponent lifted it. The fact that it wasn't his ball that he played was irrelevant in my opinion. A wrong ball is a wrong ball whether it is your ball in the wrong place or someone else's ball.

 

"15-3b/3 Fellow-Competitor Lifts Competitor's Ball and Sets It Aside; Competitor Plays Ball from Where Set Aside

 

Q. In stroke play, B marked the position of A's ball on the putting green, lifted it and placed it nearby on the green. A failed to replace the ball. He putted it from where it lay and holed out. The error was then discovered. What is the ruling?

 

A. When a ball is lifted, it is out of play — see Definition of "Ball in Play." When A played a stroke with his ball which was out of play, he played a wrong ball.

 

If A knew that B had lifted his ball, he incurred a penalty of two strokes under Rule 15-3b and was required to replace his ball on the correct spot and play out the hole.

 

If A did not know that B had lifted his ball, A could not be penalized for playing a wrong ball. If he became aware of the mistake before playing from the next tee, he was required to replace his ball on the correct spot, without penalty, and complete the hole. If he learned of the mistake after playing from the next tee, the score with the wrong ball would stand and there would be no penalty. "

 

There is no penalty for lifting an opponent's ball without authorization in stroke play (Decision 20-1/4). However, since there are no specific rules applying to the skins format, I would interpret the ruling against the opponent who lifted the ball according to the decision regarding match play. In which case he should incur a one stroke penalty.

 

"20-1/2 Player's Ball Lifted by Opponent Without Authority

Q. In a match between A and B, B, without A's authority, marked the position of, and lifted, A's ball on the putting green. Is B subject to penalty?

 

A. Yes. Under Rule 20-1, a player's ball may be lifted by his opponent only with the authority of the player. Since B was not entitled to lift A's ball, B incurred a penalty stroke — Rule 18-3b."

[KevCarter]

Great find Limpwrist!!!

 

:good:

 

Kevin

[limpwrist]

Thanks, Kevin. I hope to be just like you when I grow up. :good:

[bheffern]

Your father shouldn't have been penalized in my opinion as his own ball was out of play when the opponent lifted it. The fact that it wasn't his ball that he played was irrelevant in my opinion. A wrong ball is a wrong ball whether it is your ball in the wrong place or someone else's ball.

 

"15-3b/3 Fellow-Competitor Lifts Competitor's Ball and Sets It Aside; Competitor Plays Ball from Where Set Aside

 

Q. In stroke play, B marked the position of A's ball on the putting green, lifted it and placed it nearby on the green. A failed to replace the ball. He putted it from where it lay and holed out. The error was then discovered. What is the ruling?

 

A. When a ball is lifted, it is out of play — see Definition of "Ball in Play." When A played a stroke with his ball which was out of play, he played a wrong ball.

 

If A knew that B had lifted his ball, he incurred a penalty of two strokes under Rule 15-3b and was required to replace his ball on the correct spot and play out the hole.

 

If A did not know that B had lifted his ball, A could not be penalized for playing a wrong ball. If he became aware of the mistake before playing from the next tee, he was required to replace his ball on the correct spot, without penalty, and complete the hole. If he learned of the mistake after playing from the next tee, the score with the wrong ball would stand and there would be no penalty. "

 

There is no penalty for lifting an opponent's ball without authorization in stroke play (Decision 20-1/4). However, since there are no specific rules applying to the skins format, I would interpret the ruling against the opponent who lifted the ball according to the decision regarding match play. In which case he should incur a one stroke penalty.

 

"20-1/2 Player's Ball Lifted by Opponent Without Authority

Q. In a match between A and B, B, without A's authority, marked the position of, and lifted, A's ball on the putting green. Is B subject to penalty?

 

A. Yes. Under Rule 20-1, a player's ball may be lifted by his opponent only with the authority of the player. Since B was not entitled to lift A's ball, B incurred a penalty stroke — Rule 18-3b."

Thanks for digging this up. The question now becomes, my dad played the wrong ball (and made the putt) and then his opponent told him it was the wrong ball. So what is considered the next tee? He didn't play another ball from the correct spot. So from a rules standpoint, would he have simply not finished the hole? Or by making the putt, is he now considered to be on the next tee? Thanks for the help everyone.

[limpwrist]

Even after making the putt, he could have had his opponent replace his ball and putt it out from there with no penalty. As it was, he went on to play from the next tee without doing this, so he should have recorded the score he made with the wrong ball, but he still would not be assessed a penalty.

[limpwrist]

I take that back. Since he did know about it before playing from the next tee, he was required to replace his ball and complete the hole. And since he failed to do so even though he knew he had played the wrong ball from the wrong spot (due to his opponent's trickery), he would incur the penalty as usual for playing a wrong ball if he went on to play a shot from the next tee. In stroke play, that would make him subject to DQ. Since skins is most closely related to match play, I would say he just loses the hole regardless of what anyone else scored as would be the case in match play.

[xan_user]

Wish he would have seen the competitor pocket his ball, then he could have hit it his putt as it lay, hopefully missing his own pocketed ball and connecting with the opponents personal pair instead.

 

Nothing wakes up people like this more than a swift "putt" to the "golf" balls.

[Ty_Webb]

Did the opponent do this on purpose with the intent that your Dad would play the wrong ball? If so then in a tournament I think the Committee would have been justified in disqualifying the opponent.

 

Yes, he said he did it to "teach him a lesson" just after my dad putted the wrong ball. Unfortunately, it wasn't in a tournament, so there was no committee, but that is some consolation.

 

What "lesson" was he trying to teach him? I would say the only thing that could be learned from the experience is about the character of his opponent. That and he should avoid playing with him in future.

[jjj912]

I keep going back and forth. Originally, I was inclined to assess the Wrong Ball penalty and move on. But, the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think that is really unfair since the player was essentially tricked. The decision below isn't particularly relevant, but it was a sentence in the answer that caught my attention. The sentence is "...the competitor is not responsible for a breach of a Rule caused by the unauthorized lifting of his ball." However, the question that follows is, was the playing of the wrong ball a caused by the unauthorized lifting. My current thinking is no, it was not. I can't quite articulate why I think this is so. I guess it comes down the fact that the player saw a ball and assumed that it was his. The sameness of the balls probably contributed to that. One of the lessons to be learned here to make sure that your ball is marked such that it is readily identifiable as yours.

 

20-1/5 Competitor’s Ball Lifted Without Authority by Fellow-Competitor’s Caddie Who Subsequently Substitutes Another Ball Which Competitor Plays

 

Q. A competitor’s ball lying on the putting green is lifted by a fellow-competitor’s caddie without the authority of the competitor. Subsequently, the fellow-competitor’s caddie by mistake substitutes another ball and the competitor plays it. The error is then discovered. What is the ruling?

 

A. When a competitor authorizes another person to lift his ball, the competitor is responsible for any breach of the Rules (Rule 20-1). The converse is generally true, i.e., the competitor is not responsible for a breach of a Rule caused by the unauthorized lifting of his ball. Thus, in this case, the competitor should not be penalized under Rule 15-2. The competitor should hole out with the substituted ball, without penalty.

[limpwrist]

I had read that decision as well, jjj. I referenced the other decision because it explicitly excused the player from making a stroke at a wrong ball. A wrong ball could be your own ball in the wrong place or could be someone else's ball. It does not that his father actually hit someone else's ball in this particular scenario. Remember, a wrong ball is a wrong ball and decision 15-3b/3 excuses a player from the penalty for playing a wrong ball if he is unaware that his opponent has taken his ball out of play by marking and lifting it without authorization.

 

Though not specific to this particular decision, another phrase that is common throughout many of the rules/decisions is "in equity," which essentially refers to the fairness factor. Penalizing someone for being the victim of his opponent's misdeeds is not fair in my opinion. Thus, I would be extremely surprised if the USGA rules committee would impose a penalty in this case.

[Ronzo]

Since there was no tournament and no Committee, there is no one other than the competitors who can enforce the rules. If I were your father, I probably would have walked off the course.

 

Things like this are why I don't like to play this game for any anount of money that matters. The slimeball/greed factor comes into play.

 

Was your father ahead in the match at the time? What repercussions would there have been if he simply walked off the course and negated both the match and the bet? IMO, that is not welching; he had been cheated. To me, it's that simple.