Titleist has been SERVED-AKA Ball Tech Contest

[doublenuts]

Oh boy.

 

 

This is starting to get ridiculous.

 

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/equipment/index....10callaway.html

[steve81]

"The War of the Balls"

 

Coming to a local course near you!!!

 

:D

[kkhere]

Since the ProV1 is so popular and such a moneymaker it seems everyone wants a cut of the money it makes and tries to find a way to do it, in this case lawsuits

[DCIGUY]

:) If you can't beat them - sue them.

 

:cheesy: :D

[KingOAces]

kkhere and DCIguy are completely right. All the other companies are sick of Titleist this and Titleist that, so they try and stop sales by putting a fat lawsuit on their namee. No one can Beat Titleist.

[CRutherford]

kkhere and DCIguy are completely right. All the other companies are sick of Titleist this and Titleist that, so they try and stop sales by putting a fat lawsuit on their namee. No one can Beat Titleist.

 

Absolutely right! No one can beat them, so instead of trying to produce a better product, Callaway wants to sue for top spot? That's a little over the top. IMO callaway is an excellent company, but this is radical. Titleist is a/the leader in all golf, especially the ball industry. I don't agree at all with callaway trying this.

[JHR]

Didn't we just go through this with Brigdestone?

 

Good way to increase your own sales, just say your ball is the same ball as the best ball on the planet, and some are going to believe you.

[HeadonaStick]

kkhere and DCIguy are completely right. All the other companies are sick of Titleist this and Titleist that, so they try and stop sales by putting a fat lawsuit on their namee. No one can Beat Titleist.

 

Absolutely right! No one can beat them, so instead of trying to produce a better product, Callaway wants to sue for top spot? That's a little over the top. IMO callaway is an excellent company, but this is radical. Titleist is a/the leader in all golf, especially the ball industry. I don't agree at all with callaway trying this.

Of course the assumption being that there was no patent infringement.

 

What if there was? Of course no one can beat Titliest if they steal ideas from other companies. Personally, I'll wait and see how this one plays out...

[Goose]

I think we all have learned that now the AMERICAN way is to sue to get where you want to go. This crap with Titleist vs. B-Stone and callaway is absurd they just want a piece of the pie. It like all the obese americans sueing McDOnalds for causing them to become fat.....LOL

 

 

 

Dan"GoOsE" :D

[Putt4doh]

Difficult to say who is correct. But if Titleist truly infringed on a patent, wouldn't the HX Tour perform more like a ProV or vice versa? In my experience the HX tour didn't act much like the ProV at all. Harder, didn't spin as much off of any iron, but nearly as long. Performance issues aside, I believe it's very difficult to prove patent infringment. All Titleist has to do is make a variation or improvement on whatever intellectual property Sullivan brought to Titleist.

 

It's obviously an attempt to bite into ProV's market share, maybe also a bit of sour grapes over this Sullivan character taking his skills, expertise, and intellect to Titleist.

 

Who knows, but seems kinda corporate 'bush league' on Callaway's part. Develop a better product, don't just try to put a 'black mark' on the industry leader. That being said, I'm perfectly willing to eat some crow if the courts decide otherwise.

[MR.PINCHY]

well, new Cally balls are performing very well, at least to me..

 

like the HX TOUR 56, i love that ball, it gives me better results than original ProV1's...

 

dunno why Cally is trying too hard to catch up on Titleist's....

[KingOAces]

Sorry if I came off too strong, I just meant that by initiating the lawsuit, now some buyers will second guess their purchase. Reguardless of wether thay infrigned on the patent law or not, I don't feel that Titleist is going to be hurt that much financially like B-Stone and Cally hope. Unlike Taylormade (sry to all the TM fans) Titleist markets their product through quality performance not how many people they can pay off just to play their product and players know this. So people who know quality will only see this as a frivilous lawsuit meant to deter people from buying Titleist's products. Sorry to upset anyone, its just my opinion.

 

KinG

[GLL]

Seems a despirate attempt to inflict negative publicity on the industy's leader. Have to agree, if these are Callaway's patents how come thier ball is so inferior? By inferior I speek of 2 balls, Pro V1X and NXT Tour, IMO both are far superior to anyone elses ball in thir catagory. While everyone, including Callaway, Bridgestone, Nike & Srixon, have tried to duplicate the X, all they've been able to come up with is a rock that duplicates distance but has no feel or greenside performance. All have come with later versions that softened the original and offered more spin, but left thier player hitting first. I think these softer versions compare favorably to the regular Pro V, but the X is in a world of its own and all the other manufacturers know it. I think the same can be said for the NXT Tour in the mid price performance ball catagory, in fact I'd play an NXT Tour over an HX Tour.

Just what I think, thanks for your time.

[acrazygolfer]

First, in reference to McDonalds ... just this week McDonalds admits that it prior disclosure regarding the fat in their fries was not correct ... the correct fat content was twice as much.

 

B'Stone sued Titleist over certain used of B'stone's patents in some of the balls manufactured by Titleist. Callaway sued Titleist over the patents formerly owned by Top-Flite ... and Callaway is now the owner of Top-Flite. Top-Flite was granted these patents when a Michael Sullivan worked for Top-Flite. Mr. Sullivan left Top-Flite and became the VP of Ball Research and Development for Titleist ... get the picture of the solid ground Callaway is standing on in filing the patent infringement lawsuit.

 

Of course these cases will most likely settle out of court since it's much cheaper to settle.

[sergizmo]

Mabye Titleist did violate one of Callaway's patents. They wouldn't sue for nothing and risk a case getting thrown out after all the legal fees. Bridgestone is a huge, prestigious company and isn't going to file a frivilous lawsuit either. Titleist isn't immune to patent law just because of it's tour success.

[CRutherford]

Well, this is what I believe. If the HX tour or HX 56 is so much of a similar ball, then why do so many tour players, which have access to most any brand they want, play the ProV1? Even players that aren't Titleist staffers are playing a Pro V1. Just something to think about.

[HeadonaStick]

Well, this is what I believe. If the HX tour or HX 56 is so much of a similar ball, then why do so many tour players, which have access to most any brand they want, play the ProV1? Even players that aren't Titleist staffers are playing a Pro V1. Just something to think about.

Just because there may have been patent infringment does not mean that the balls should perform identically. Without knowing what the patents in questions are, and what variables may have been changed both within the patent technology and outside the questioned technology, comparing currently shipping balls tells us absolutely nothing about the patents involved.

 

It is absolutely possible that the balls use the infringed patents and yet due to changes in any number of other variables the balls perform differently and are designed to be marketed at different audiences.

 

Any lawsuit mentioned does not question the quality of the products in question - only where the included technology came from and who owns the rights to use the technology. For many, the Titliest balls may perform much better. Nine out of ten touring professionals may use Titliest. So? That has no bearing on the patent question.

 

I doubt any high profile company files this type of lawsuit lightly. Too expensive and potentially damaging to their credibility in the marketplace. A patent lawsuit will not make too many buyers question their purchase - it isn't about quality. A patent lawsuit would not be the best vehicle if that was the goal. I highly suspect that both companies feel they are right or there would be either a settlement or no lawsuit to begin with.

 

By the way, Titliest pays a great deal of tee up money to get players to use their balls.

[GLL]

Callaway and Bridgestone don't pay tee up money.

[doublenuts]

This ball-lawsuit is just shows what can happen when lawyers run amok with the blessing of the current BOD of Callaway led by the ex-perfume guy. So in the beginning, Callaway was BLEEDING cash to about $170 Million with their old ball line-they had been losing cash since they started making balls in 2000. They won the bidding for Top Flite and this was seen as the solution for the company's money-losing golf ball business.

 

 

So why should Titleist have to eat a bullet for a product that, -for what Callaway now says, reading between the lines- is a better ball?? Callaway won the Top Flite ball bidding war, inherited the "Sullivan Patents", developed and markets new balls off of said patents, but in the end goes after Titleist. Why? because we all know via the Darrell Survey, that Titleist still produces the most played ball. Is that confusing? Because it is to me.

 

What about ALL the other Multi-Layer, solid core ball companies-NIKE!?! Why not name NIKE too?? MAXFLI/TM??-this would be more gas on the fire between these two. Is Titleist the test case?? Because at the end of the day, according to the "Sullivan Patents", everyone who is producing a multi-layer ball is guilty in some form.

 

Now what happens to the future of golf ball development if Callaway wins?

Would Callaway get rich off of ball technology licensing rights?

 

So because the general public and I guess the pros, didn't buy into the hype of the HX series and stayed loyal to Titleist. Callaway finally said enough, we've got investors who want ROI and this is that way we'll do it.

 

This act by Callaway smells like cheap cologne.

 

Sorry for the winded, maybe uninformed rant.

[NPVWhiz]

The different ball companies have been cross-licensing their patents for decades, so in one respect this is nothing new.

 

The bottom line is that patents are legitimate, and serve an incredibly important purpose in our economy, and the rights that a patent confers aren't just a matter of law. They are a part of the Constitution of this nation, and just about every other industrialized country in the world pays deference to the importance of having a patent system.

 

If you really want to see the ball business in the US become less innovative, then watch what happens when/if the owner of a patent gives up on keeping competitors from stealing their innovations. What happens is that companies stop producing innovative products, since they can't make a return on investment if their closest competitors simply free-ride on the R&D that goes into creating the patentable innovation.

 

Titleist should play by the same rules that everyone else plays by. They should abide by the law with regard to patents, and if they are found guilty, they should pay the penalty, which can be severe (check the news for the Blackberry patent case that's working it's way through the legal process currently).

[bigeasy]

Correct me if i am wrong(my wife says 99%of the time) but the prov1 has been on the market since 2001 or is it 2000? anyway my point is callaway or top flite has not had a equivalent ball until 2005, if they had the patents originally what took them so long to sue or produce a better ball ? because the top flite guy left and went to titleist and so their only r&d guy leaves and now they are trying to make titleist pay. sounds petty to me. by the way i love the callaway hx 56 ball.

[HeadonaStick]

This ball-lawsuit is just shows what can happen when lawyers run amok with the blessing of the current BOD of Callaway led by the ex-perfume guy. So in the beginning, Callaway was BLEEDING cash to about $170 Million with their old ball line-they had been losing cash since they started making balls in 2000. They won the bidding for Top Flite and this was seen as the solution for the company's money-losing golf ball business.

 

It is only a solution if they protect what they purchased - including patents.

 

So why should Titleist have to eat a bullet for a product that, -for what Callaway now says, reading between the lines- is a better ball?? Callaway won the Top Flite ball bidding war, inherited the "Sullivan Patents", developed and markets new balls off of said patents, but in the end goes after Titleist. Why? because we all know via the Darrell Survey, that Titleist still produces the most played ball. Is that confusing? Because it is to me.

 

Callaway does not say it is a better ball. Where do you see that?

 

Assuming that there is a patent infringement, they go after Titleist because they are making money from something that does not belong to them, and are competing against Callaway with Callaway's product.

 

Again assuming there is infringment, they are stealing from Callaway. That is why they eat the bullet.

 

What about ALL the other Multi-Layer, solid core ball companies-NIKE!?! Why not name NIKE too?? MAXFLI/TM??-this would be more gas on the fire between these two. Is Titleist the test case?? Because at the end of the day, according to the "Sullivan Patents", everyone who is producing a multi-layer ball is guilty in some form.

 

Could be any of a number of reasons.

 

* It is easier to prove that Titleist is infringing.

 

* Because every single multi-layer ball is not covered by the patents. I don't know what the patents cover specifically, and I guess nobody here does.

 

* Because other companies have paid a licensing fee after being contacted by Callaway.

 

* Probably a number of things I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

Now what happens to the future of golf ball development if Callaway wins?

Would Callaway get rich off of ball technology licensing rights?

 

Possibly. And if it is their patent, why not?

 

They could also require Titleist to cease making balls which use the patent.

 

So because the general public and I guess the pros, didn't buy into the hype of the HX series and stayed loyal to Titleist. Callaway finally said enough, we've got investors who want ROI and this is that way we'll do it.

 

Shouldn't they get a return on investment?

 

I doubt it has much to do with what anyone is buying to tell you the truth. I suspect Callaway would have taken this action regardless. If they fail to protect their patents they loose their rights to said patents.

 

This act by Callaway smells like cheap cologne.

 

Sorry for the winded, maybe uninformed rant.

The flip side is that stealing stinks too.

 

As I said, I'd prefer to wait and see how things shake out. We can discuss this ad infinitum but the reality is, we don't know what is covered by the patents in question. It is apparent that both sides feel they are right or this would have been settled already.

[HeadonaStick]

Correct me if i am wrong(my wife says 99%of the time) but the prov1 has been on the market since 2001 or is it 2000? anyway my point is callaway or top flite has not had a equivalent ball until 2005, if they had the patents originally what took them so long to sue or produce a better ball ? because the top flite guy left and went to titleist and so their only r&d guy leaves and now they are trying to make titleist pay. sounds petty to me. by the way i love the callaway hx 56 ball.

Callaway and Titleist have had extended negotiations according to the article. So this issue is not new nor has Callaway just brought it to Titleist's attention. It took so long to sue because the matter was being negotiated in an attempt to prevent a lawsuit.

 

Having the patents is not the same as having a marketable product. And they may take (almost) as long as they please to bring a product to market - that does not effect their right to protect their patents.

[hef63303]

Finally, an intelligent response. Thanks, HeadonaStick. Ball companies have shared patents for a fee for years. Look at some of the boxes. Every ball company has paid every other ball company for their use.

[QbSpanka11]

A lot of people don't realize exactly what all patents do... Every step in the ball making process could be patented. For example, callaway could file a suit because titleist is using their patented process for making the cover of the ball, or the core. Because someone copies your patent does not in anyway mean that you will have the same, or similar products. Callaway could just as easility file a suit against a non golf company for using the patent rights they have on their core for something like shock absorbtion or dampening in a vehicle.

[KeilwerthSX90R]

As acrazygolfer pointed out the lawsuit arrises out of patents filed by TopFlight while Titleist's current ball designer was there. While Callaway could have bought TopFlight for a number of reason I would imagine that their golf ball business and patents was one of them. They have every right to protect that. It is not as simple as Callaway being jealous of Titleist and suing them.

 

In most situations an engineer cannot develop something at one company which patents the design and then jump to another company and use the patents from his previous job. That is basically what Callaway is claiming happened in this case.

[sergizmo]

As acrazygolfer pointed out the lawsuit arrises out of patents filed by TopFlight while Titleist's current ball designer was there. While Callaway could have bought TopFlight for a number of reason I would imagine that their golf ball business and patents was one of them. They have every right to protect that. It is not as simple as Callaway being jealous of Titleist and suing them.

 

In most situations an engineer cannot develop something at one company which patents the design and then jump to another company and use the patents from his previous job. That is basically what Callaway is claiming happened in this case.

 

 

Mabye this Sullivan character will get sued directly by Callaway for violating the terms of his non-disclosure agreement.

[dmac]

The patent skirmish isn't about how the balls perform. It's the process of making them. It's a bit like when Cleveland came out with the VAS irons in the mid-90s and had the patent on using a medallion to dampen vibration. Every company that used a similar design had to pay licensing fees to Cleveland, or risk a lawsuit. That's what Callaway is trying to do accomplish here. They were in negotiations with Titleist to get a settlement or licensing fees (a good chunk of change), and negotiations broke down. Next stop? Court. This isn't a fake slip-and-fall frivolous lawsuit. This is how companies protect intellectual property, and Titleist would do (and has done) the same thing. Otherwise, patents are worthless.

 

And for those wondering why Top-Flite/Callaway didn't come up with similar products until "now", I'm a little confused. Top-Flite had the three-piece, solid-core Strata balls in 1996. Callaway had the Rule 35 in 2000. Both balls made it to market well ahead of the Pro V1. The Pro V1 wasn't the first three-piece solid-core ball by a long shot, but it was the one that really took off (since Titleist already had the majority of tour use and retail sales).

 

http://thesandtrap.com/archives/balls/call..._v1_patents.php

[HeadonaStick]

As acrazygolfer pointed out the lawsuit arrises out of patents filed by TopFlight while Titleist's current ball designer was there. While Callaway could have bought TopFlight for a number of reason I would imagine that their golf ball business and patents was one of them. They have every right to protect that. It is not as simple as Callaway being jealous of Titleist and suing them.

 

In most situations an engineer cannot develop something at one company which patents the design and then jump to another company and use the patents from his previous job. That is basically what Callaway is claiming happened in this case.

 

 

Mabye this Sullivan character will get sued directly by Callaway for violating the terms of his non-disclosure agreement.

Perhaps, but that would be mostly punative as it is unlikely that a private individual could recoup the losses Callaway is facing if their accusation is true.

 

Corporations are responsable to assure they are not violating any patents when they bring a product to market, so in any case Titleist is responsible for their products.