What would be the appropriate rule?

jirizarry · April 16, 2009

Crazy situation, we were not sure how to handle!

Hey guys!
I need the opinion of the rules experts out there. Here's the situation:
A couple of weeks ago I was playing a friendly Saturday round with my buddies at the Ocean course in RioMar Golf Club in Rio Grande, Puerto Rico. The 3rd hole is a Par 5. The green is elevated with deep bunkers to the right and left. One of the guys in our foursome hit his third shot high into the wall of the right bunker which we all saw.
Now, here is where it gets interesting. When we got off the carts to play the next shot our buddy called us as he could NOT find the ball which previously we ALL saw hit the bunker. We looked around, even short or past the bunker but the ball was nowhere to be found. Before our buddy dropped a new ball in play, I noticed a small patch of slightly darker sand in the bunker about a foot and a half below the lip ( the bunker is about 7-8 feet deep ), but the ball could not be seen. We all suspected that was the spot where the ball could be.
Here's what we did: we allowed our buddy to displace just enough sand to see if the ball was buried there ( which it was ) and play the stroke without penalty. Now the questions:
a.) Would that be the correct ruling?
b. If not, what would be the correct ruling?
c.) Would moving the sand (albeit to verify there is actually a ball buried there ) consist in a violation ( improving the lie )?
d.) If moving the sand is not a violation, what provision could be allowed for him to verify if he is playing his own ball, if any?
e.) Does this poor soul have to take a penalty no matter what? :black eye:

Thanks for the help guys! For us, it became an interesting situation to discuss later at the 19th green!!!! :drinks:

J.R.

rankoutsider · April 16, 2009

Everything was done (almost) correctly. He is supposed to replace the sand around the ball, and then remove just enough sand to be able to see the ball. You are entitled to remove enough sand so you can see some part of the ball from some angle (usually above it). It does not count as having improved your lie, and you don't have to take a penalty for removing sand to determine if the ball is there and if it is your ball.

You still have to do all of this within 5 minutes of arriving to the spot where the ball is thought to be.

irishfight4it · April 16, 2009

I was caddying in a tarheel tour even and this same thing happened. that is exactly what must be done, basically it is played as unplayable everytime

hbear · April 16, 2009

I don't get why one would take an unplayable, as you still have to drop in the bunker and take a penalty stroke as well.

Most times I've seen players just blast at it...sometimes they get lucky and get it on th green/fringe...but if not it's in the bunker in a better lie anyways (no different than if they had taken the drop).

markheardjr · April 16, 2009

I don't get why one would take an unplayable, as you still have to drop in the bunker and take a penalty stroke as well.
Most times I've seen players just blast at it...sometimes they get lucky and get it on th green/fringe...but if not it's in the bunker in a better lie anyways (no different than if they had taken the drop).

I think for the more leisure golfer, they aren't going to be able to blast it out. Chances are, they will take too much sand and leave the ball in the same place. Of, have it roll into their foot, or into the hole they just made, or double hit it and get more of a penalty, etc. I'd turn the toe in, lead with the toe, loosen my grip, and swing HARD. The club will displace all the sand, then it will twist in your hand and hit the newly cleared ball straight up. Works everytime....

jjj912 · April 16, 2009

I don't get why one would take an unplayable, as you still have to drop in the bunker and take a penalty stroke as well.
Most times I've seen players just blast at it...sometimes they get lucky and get it on th green/fringe...but if not it's in the bunker in a better lie anyways (no different than if they had taken the drop).

When you fail in your attempt to extricate a ball from the bunker, you have no control over the new lie. For example, if there is a footprint in the bunker, the ball might come to rest in it. If you do not think you can extricate the ball from the bunker, taking an unplayable is preferable because you then have some control over the new lie of the ball. For example, you could drop away from the footprint.

Also, if the lie in the bunker is bad enough to merit considering declaring the ball unplayable, then the lie is probably bad enough that the results of your bunker has a higher than normal likelihood of being very poor (e.g. lost ball, OB) and a less than normal likelihood being acceptable. Taking the unplayable and hitting from a better lie, even though you are still in the bunker and have to take the penalty stroke, improves your chance to finish the hole without doing too much damage to your score.

Baxpin · April 16, 2009

I was just looking over the USGA site on this. You can remove sand to identify the ball without penalty, but it doesn't say anything about the sand having to be replaced.

http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/de...c12.html#12-1/1

rankoutsider · April 16, 2009

A ball buried in sand in a bunker is removed from the buried lie during search. The player replaces and re-covers it as required by Rule 12-1, third paragraph. May the player then remove as much sand as will enable him to see a part of the ball?

A. Yes.

--You have to recover the ball to recreate the lie as best you can, and then remove a little so you know where to swing. That is what the rule permits, not just taking sand away. Otherwise you would substantially improve your lie.

Baxpin · April 16, 2009

A ball buried in sand in a bunker is removed from the buried lie during search. The player replaces and re-covers it as required by Rule 12-1, third paragraph. May the player then remove as much sand as will enable him to see a part of the ball?

A. Yes.

--You have to recover the ball to recreate the lie as best you can, and then remove a little so you know where to swing. That is what the rule permits, not just taking sand away. Otherwise you would substantially improve your lie.

Yep, I missed that part. Good catch.

hbear · April 16, 2009

I don't get why one would take an unplayable, as you still have to drop in the bunker and take a penalty stroke as well.
Most times I've seen players just blast at it...sometimes they get lucky and get it on th green/fringe...but if not it's in the bunker in a better lie anyways (no different than if they had taken the drop).

When you fail in your attempt to extricate a ball from the bunker, you have no control over the new lie. For example, if there is a footprint in the bunker, the ball might come to rest in it. If you do not think you can extricate the ball from the bunker, taking an unplayable is preferable because you then have some control over the new lie of the ball. For example, you could drop away from the footprint.

Also, if the lie in the bunker is bad enough to merit considering declaring the ball unplayable, then the lie is probably bad enough that the results of your bunker has a higher than normal likelihood of being very poor (e.g. lost ball, OB) and a less than normal likelihood being acceptable. Taking the unplayable and hitting from a better lie, even though you are still in the bunker and have to take the penalty stroke, improves your chance to finish the hole without doing too much damage to your score.

Fair points.

It obviously is a slight risk/reward...but I don't consider the risk that bad.

I have yet to see anybody blast one OB from a buried lie in the face of a bunker....most barely advance it to the green...nevermind sending it sailing somewhere.

At least with a swing I still have a shot at making par, or give myself a tap in bogey...after an unplayable I don't have much of a chance to make par (technically I can hole out from the sand...but I wouldn't count on it) and would have to grind for the bogey.

Too add, if the sand is soft enough to plug a ball that deep into the face of the bunker....chances are you are also going to get a fried egg with a drop as well. (happened to me at during a provincial open tournament). Taking a drop, and then giving yourself a fried egg is slightly aggravating!

jjj912 · April 16, 2009

...
Fair points.
It obviously is a slight risk/reward...but I don't consider the risk that bad.
I have yet to see anybody blast one OB from a buried lie in the face of a bunker....most barely advance it to the green...nevermind sending it sailing somewhere.
At least with a swing I still have a shot at making par, or give myself a tap in bogey...after an unplayable I don't have much of a chance to make par (technically I can hole out from the sand...but I wouldn't count on it) and would have to grind for the bogey.

Obviously, the decision to drop or not would depend on your assessment of the risk. I think I've taken an unplayable in a bunker just one time and that was because - now that I think about it - I was in a similar situation as the guy in the OP post: my ball was deeply buried in the face of fairway bunker. I did not think that I could get the ball out of the bunker without hurting myself so I took an unplayable to get away from the lip and onto a level lie.

Too add, if the sand is soft enough to plug a ball that deep into the face of the bunker....chances are you are also going to get a fried egg with a drop as well. (happened to me at during a provincial open tournament). Taking a drop, and then giving yourself a fried egg is slightly aggravating!

Hey, I never said a dropping was a risk-free endeavor. :lol:

Redwood_75 · April 17, 2009

You could also pay the ball from the original position, right?

I was debating this with some friends recently when one of them claimed that you could, if you had taken a putt from the putting green, and somehow ended up in a bunker, call it unplayable, and then replace the ball on the putting green for a one stroke penalty and retake you putt.

I was always of the opinion that if you called an unplayable in a bunker the ball had to be dropped in the bunker, but not so. Rule 28a.

jjj912 · April 17, 2009

Rule 28a is the stroke and distance option when declaring a ball unplayable. Under that rule you take penalty stroke and play again from the original spot.

In your example, your friend is correct. If you putt your ball into a bunker, you can proceed under 28a and place the ball on the green. However, if you opted to proceed under 28b or 28c, you would have to drop the ball in the bunker.

woohoo4me · April 17, 2009

I don't get why one would take an unplayable, as you still have to drop in the bunker and take a penalty stroke as well.
Most times I've seen players just blast at it...sometimes they get lucky and get it on th green/fringe...but if not it's in the bunker in a better lie anyways (no different than if they had taken the drop).

When you fail in your attempt to extricate a ball from the bunker, you have no control over the new lie. For example, if there is a footprint in the bunker, the ball might come to rest in it. If you do not think you can extricate the ball from the bunker, taking an unplayable is preferable because you then have some control over the new lie of the ball. For example, you could drop away from the footprint.

Also, if the lie in the bunker is bad enough to merit considering declaring the ball unplayable, then the lie is probably bad enough that the results of your bunker has a higher than normal likelihood of being very poor (e.g. lost ball, OB) and a less than normal likelihood being acceptable. Taking the unplayable and hitting from a better lie, even though you are still in the bunker and have to take the penalty stroke, improves your chance to finish the hole without doing too much damage to your score.

So, let's say you've got a gaggle of golfers in the bunker with you trying to determine if it's your ball or not. And let's say it is and you choose to blast it from it's re-constructed original position.

Before you play the shot, are you allowed to rake the bunker to eliminate the 97 footprints left by your foursome? If the ball was easily identified by the player, there would not have been all those extra footprints to possibly land in.....

Maybe not a likely situation, but that's the question that came to my mind........

Edit: I guess that would be testing the conditions regardless, no?? I just decided to never plug a ball deep in a bunker face.....sounds like no fun.

hbear · April 17, 2009

I haven't looked up the rule, but I'd assume the footprints can be smoothed out prior to playing the shot.

General rule is that the player is entitled to the same surface conditions his ball was found in.

E.g. if two players both have their balls in the bunker in close proximity (e.g. one has to mark) , then the second player to go is entitled to smooth the area out before he replaces his ball. It wouldn't be fair to force player #2 to play out of player #1's footprint/divot.

jjj912 · April 20, 2009

I don't get why one would take an unplayable, as you still have to drop in the bunker and take a penalty stroke as well.
Most times I've seen players just blast at it...sometimes they get lucky and get it on th green/fringe...but if not it's in the bunker in a better lie anyways (no different than if they had taken the drop).

When you fail in your attempt to extricate a ball from the bunker, you have no control over the new lie. For example, if there is a footprint in the bunker, the ball might come to rest in it. If you do not think you can extricate the ball from the bunker, taking an unplayable is preferable because you then have some control over the new lie of the ball. For example, you could drop away from the footprint.

Also, if the lie in the bunker is bad enough to merit considering declaring the ball unplayable, then the lie is probably bad enough that the results of your bunker has a higher than normal likelihood of being very poor (e.g. lost ball, OB) and a less than normal likelihood being acceptable. Taking the unplayable and hitting from a better lie, even though you are still in the bunker and have to take the penalty stroke, improves your chance to finish the hole without doing too much damage to your score.

So, let's say you've got a gaggle of golfers in the bunker with you trying to determine if it's your ball or not. And let's say it is and you choose to blast it from it's re-constructed original position.

Before you play the shot, are you allowed to rake the bunker to eliminate the 97 footprints left by your foursome? If the ball was easily identified by the player, there would not have been all those extra footprints to possibly land in.....

Maybe not a likely situation, but that's the question that came to my mind........

Edit: I guess that would be testing the conditions regardless, no?? I just decided to never plug a ball deep in a bunker face.....sounds like no fun.

The situation I was imagining was that the footprint existed before you began play of the hole (e.g. it was made by the group in front in of you).

Off the top of my head I only know if two instances where you might be permitted to remove footprints prior to playing your shot. The first instance is when another golfer plays a shot from the same bunker before you and the causes your lie to be become worse. In that instance you can re-create your orginal lie. The second instance has to do with a tournament when a member of the committee enters the bunker and creates footprints. I don't recall the exact wording of the Decision off the top of my head.

If your foursome is helping you look for your ball and in the process builds Footprint City, I think you have to leave the footprints there and play around them. If one of them stepped on your ball, I think you might be permitted to recreate the original lie, but I don't think smoothing out all of the other footprints would be permitted.

npm711 · April 28, 2009

A ball buried in sand in a bunker is removed from the buried lie during search. The player replaces and re-covers it as required by Rule 12-1, third paragraph. May the player then remove as much sand as will enable him to see a part of the ball?

A. Yes.

--You have to recover the ball to recreate the lie as best you can, and then remove a little so you know where to swing. That is what the rule permits, not just taking sand away. Otherwise you would substantially improve your lie.

This only applies if the ball is removed from the lie. The rule doesn't require you to replace sand if the ball is not removed. The only time sand would have to be replaced is if an excess amount of sand is removed while searching for a ball. As long as only enough sand to see a part of the ball is removed, then its all good.

In a hazard, if a ball is believed to be covered by loose impediments or sand, the player may remove by probing or raking with a club or otherwise, as many loose impediments or as much sand as will enable him to see a part of the ball. If an excess is removed, there is no penalty and the ball must be re-covered so that only a part of the ball is visible. If the ball is moved during the removal, there is no penalty; the ball must be replaced and, if necessary, re-covered. As to removal of loose impediments outside a hazard, see Rule 23-1.