Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[hodges]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1846925' date='Jul 27 2009, 08:27 PM']The Authentication program was set up for the primary purpose to generate sales for the Custom Shop and take business away from others that were doing aftermarket alterations.[/quote]

Don't you have a problem with some of the work that "others" are doing aftermarket? I think the reason some of these alterations were done was to try and create the illusion that the putter was a tour putter when it was not. I think this is the reason the COA program started, to sort out the fake tour putters from the real ones. The only business they are taking away form others is from those that try to cheat the rest of us by stamping circle t's, grinding soles, ect

[hodges]

[quote name='xxio' post='1847031' date='Jul 27 2009, 09:04 PM'][quote name='scottym' post='1847006' date='Jul 28 2009, 08:53 AM']But [b]I am amused[/b] that JR started the rumor, and let it spread until, like a myth, it became a fact.[/quote]

Sort of like how you claim Forgasim is JR. A few more times and maybe it will become fact.

Sort of like how the Cameron site says fewer than 5, it has "eventually" become fact to the people who are scared to question irregularities in the Cameron World.

If this Mini controversy was found by Cameron fans and pointed out at CC I would hope that the Mods or at least Mr. Vogney would take time out and talk to Cameron to get clarification. The info would be posted here and scrutinized. If it passes logic then there are other Cameron things to talk about. As it stands no explanation has been given to the statement attributed to Mr. Vogney.

Don't surrender until you see the whites in their eyes.
[/quote]

If it passes logic,
your the same guy that thinks there is a secret send run of mini's. You have pushed that rumor enough that even Foregasim has repeated it trying to make it a fact.
How could your logic be trusted.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='hodges' post='1852018' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:56 PM'][quote name='jick' post='1843625' date='Jul 26 2009, 02:34 AM']When Cameron gives over-the-top ego-centric statements such as him improving on Karsten and Mills, or that he is paving the way to , or that his stainless steel putters are made from recycled forks and knives, or that he feels the jealousy of many, or that he is on the verge of a discovery that will alter the future of putting itself --- then those can be attributed to Cameron and reflect on his person.[/quote]

Jick I get the feeling you don't think that Cameron's versions of the original Karsten and Mills models are improvements.
Has anybody improved these designs in your mind?

Improvement to an original design can be measured one way by if it becomes a commerical success. Does it sell more than the original.[/quote]

Sorry, that's not a measure of improvement necessarily, that's a measure of marketing and access. Scotty markets his putters brilliantly, and it is easy to buy one because he makes 200,000 copies a year - you can walk into almost any golf store and buy one. Mills et. al. are a little more exclusive by design.

I'm not going to say objectively that it isn't an improvement, but personally I don't consider a pooping Scotty dog a true improvement. It is simply slapping a different color coat of paint on someone else's creation. I realize that is nothing more than opinion, so no need to argue the point.

[quote]If this case I think most of Camerons versions have out sold the originals so they could be called an improvement.

Now if your only talking about how they look compared to the original, well that is to subjective to come to any kind of agreement.

I believe it was TP Mills that was one of the first to mill putterheads. The Mills company enjoy their best years sales wise though during the spalding era when the TP Mills putters were cast. Jay Green has helped David get the Mills company back to their roots of milling putters. He has brought the plumbers neck to the Mills company. They are enjoying a great resurgence. It is nearly the same thing that Nick has done for Bettinardi. They have brought their backgrounds from the Cameron world and are using their experiences to help the companies they represent.


While Scotty didn't invent milling putterheads it was his putters that were the first commercially successful milled models. Cameron milled putters have changed the marketplace. They have opened the door to many other startup companies and improved the market for some of the established puttermakers. There may never have been a milled putter market as we know it if someone didn't succeed. The milled putter market moved mainstream with Titleist signing Cameron to a contract and providing the funding to create a whole new market category. Maybe a few of the new puttermakers do owe him a debt of gratitude for paving the way to where we are today.
just some thoughts[/quote]
TP Mills [i]was[/i] the first to mill putters. First to hand stamp them. First to use a black oxide finish. First to actually align the aiming device with the sweet spot. TP Mills is also a commercial success. Everyone, including Scotty who thinks there is some kind of jealousy can't imagine that Mills and others might not be interested in selling more putters than they can personally control and work on. Not everyone wants to be like Scotty.

[edit:]

Just to be clear, I don't know David Mills. Maybe he lies awake at night trying to figure out how to be like Scotty. I just really doubt it.

[xxio]

[quote name='hodges' post='1852072' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:17 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1847031' date='Jul 27 2009, 09:04 PM'][quote name='scottym' post='1847006' date='Jul 28 2009, 08:53 AM']But [b]I am amused[/b] that JR started the rumor, and let it spread until, like a myth, it became a fact.[/quote]

Sort of like how you claim Forgasim is JR. A few more times and maybe it will become fact.

Sort of like how the Cameron site says fewer than 5, it has "eventually" become fact to the people who are scared to question irregularities in the Cameron World.

If this Mini controversy was found by Cameron fans and pointed out at CC I would hope that the Mods or at least Mr. Vogney would take time out and talk to Cameron to get clarification. The info would be posted here and scrutinized. If it passes logic then there are other Cameron things to talk about. As it stands no explanation has been given to the statement attributed to Mr. Vogney.

Don't surrender until you see the whites in their eyes.
[/quote]

If it passes logic,
your the same guy that thinks there is a secret send run of mini's. You have pushed that rumor enough that even Foregasim has repeated it trying to make it a fact.
How could your logic be trusted.
[/quote]


If you read the train of thought in my posts I [b]proposed[/b] that a plausible way that the 1/5 and the "fewer than 5" could be reconciled would be that there was another run after the "fewer than 5" comment was made.

I did that because if the 2 statements are not reconciled that would mean there is a[b] lie [/b]somewhere, either the website statement or the 1/5 stamp. I do not want to attribute any lies to anyone without clear cut proof. So I offered probable scenarios.

I can also just say someone in the Cameron organization (webmaster? Stamper? Cameron himself?) does not have his story straight but I would rather give the benefit of the doubt.

[hodges]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850304' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:28 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1850044' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:23 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850038' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:03 AM']From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with.[/quote]

Congratulations foregasim, mission accomplished.
[/quote]
Rather than attacking Foregasm you might want to say why my statement is untrue. It seems that every person that Scotty has worked with, from business partners to private website developers, has had a falling out. Nobody has provided any meaningful rebuttal to that statement - I wasn't aware it was actually in dispute here.
[/quote]
It wasn't Scotty that approached Doug to start a website for his fans. Doug started it on his own, people introduced Doug to Scotty, the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.

[geogolf]

[quote]the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.[/quote]

Almost. TCC had some threads regarding other putters. In an effort to keep TCC strictly Cameron- PT was formed. Then..... things went wacko.

[biscuity]

[quote name='Huntingchris0000' post='1850961' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:05 AM']I don't have a dog in this fight but just have to wonder what biscuit and scotty m are getting out of this? I would not come on the internet and defend someone for the life of me, what is the benefit?[/quote]

I am getting nothing out of this.
I never expect to get anything out of this.
If I do get something out of this I will destroy it with a 5lb sledgehammer and post photos.
I have never met or had contact with Scotty Cameron or any of his employees.
I have never met or had contact with any of the TCC moderators.
I have no desire to see this thread closed.
I try to follow the GolfWRX rules, but it becomes difficult when others break the rules and force me to defend myself.

I am posting an alternative viewpoint to the handful of posters who have an anti-Cameron agenda.

[tpariff]

Biscuity,

How do you know so much about Cameron's operation? Specific things like this quote from post #1458:

"That's why he has a staff of 16 people at the Putter Studio to help him."

I'm not sure many of the 'whales' or experts know exactly how many people Scotty employs at the Putter Studio. If you don't mind sharing, how do you know the exact number?

Thanks.
Kevin

[stage1350]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1851528' date='Jul 29 2009, 05:03 PM']...But I do have a question for you on the DASS.....do you go to the majority of topics that have even the slightest to do with bettinardi or DASS and make it known that you don't like DASS, it is a marketing ploy, and everyone should use carbon? Some people feel the need to do that about Cameron - that is hate.

I also agree that many people use the hater accusation way too often....but for some, it isn't used enough.[/quote]

To answer your question, if someone asks my preferred base metal, the real answer is BeCu. But since the EPA has all but eliminated that option, I stick with carbon steel. And I have made that point not only in Bettinardi threads, but in Byron threads when people ask why I don't own a Captain Morgan yet. The Captain Morgan is an absolutely stunning putter, especially in the Mystic Pearl finish, but stainless steel and I have never fared as well as carbon steel.

Regarding marketing ploys, the other manufacturers mentioned above deal in one grade of stainless, be it A.S.S. for Byron or DASS for Bettinardi. They don't presume that there is a mythical secondary grade of 303 stainless that is worth double-10X the price tag of their normal stainless putters. Therefore, I'd disagree with your parallel and attempt to apply it to other OEMs. Only one OEM that I know of claims that he needs two types of 303 Stainless and that one is worth the upcharge. Therefore, people calling BS on that isn't hate. It's calling BS because it's truly BS.

[quote]I applaud people that don't give their money to companies because of their business practices. BUT, if you're going to do it, you can't pick and choose what companies you hold to this standard. If you won't buy from Cameron or Titleist because of poor business practice then you better not buy a pair of tennis shoes made in the sweatshops in the far east....or from the retailer that goes into small markets and demands that the suppliers stop selling merchandise through the local mom and pop shops or they will remove the items for all their stores....hopefully you get the point or you could tell me some of your favorite brands and I'll see what kind of dirt I can dig up on them. Do you buy your produce from local farmers or do you support the large grocery stores? Which do you think is more ethical?[/quote]

Again, a nice attempt at diversion. Sneaker manufacturers and clothing sweat shops come under fire for their use of underage labor. Are you saying that Don T. is employing 6 year olds to make his putters? It would explain the infantile colors and names of said colors. But I think your embellishment speaks for itself.

Sneaker manufacturers don't selectively grant different grades of COAs based on the owner. Sneaker manufacturers don't tell a person that they are going to fix their 009 with tungsten weights, then back out on the deal so that they can sell the first LH 009 with Tungsten weights to a bigger collector. When people are calling out Cameron for the questionable business practices, they have detailed complaints. To this day, I have not heard anyone deny that these incidents took place. They will make plenty of excuses as to why it was okay, but they aren't denying that it didn't happen. When that person says "I'm not giving this guy any more money because of these deceptive practices" you're going to look pretty foolish comparing that to a fake Louis Vuitton wallet made by an 8 year old that's being sold on the streets of Hong Kong.

I have never heard a story about Truett or David Mills screwing someone over for a buck. Same with Tad Moore. People claim to have stories on Bettinardi, but nobody dares speak about it. Therefore, I have nothing bad to say about any of the three manufacturers above. I own putters from all three and am very satisfied with them.

[biscuity]

[quote name='HOHO' post='1851381' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:55 PM']If I held most manufacturers of MOST PRODUCTS IN THE WORLD ,
to the same standards that some are trying to hold Scotty to ...
I would OWN NOTHING (including clothes , running shoes , cars ... and on and on and on )

Dan[/quote]

+1

Exactly.

[scottym]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1852201' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:12 PM'][quote name='geogolf' post='1852181' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:01 PM'][quote]the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.[/quote]

Almost. TCC had some threads regarding other putters. In an effort to keep TCC strictly Cameron- PT was formed. Then..... things went wacko.
[/quote]
The final straw that made Cameron take the action he did regarding TCC was the fact that TCC had a fund raising thread to collect donations for T.P. Mills funeral. At a lunch meeting in California with Doug, Cameron, Margaret (Cameron's personal assistant) I believe Hank and a really nice collector, Cameron express how inappropriate it was for a Cameron forum to raise money for T.P. Mills funeral. That there should be no talk what so ever about any other putter makers on TCC. Cameron was irate that Doug would use "Cameron's" name in association with collecting donations for the Mills funeral.

That was when PutterTalk was formed so that there would not be any discussions on TCC about any other putter makers, dead or alive. Cameron never got over that situation and decided to pull all support from TCC and gave ultimatums to those involved with overseeing the site.

That told me a lot about what type of guy Cameron is.
[/quote]


Honestly, a good post.

But, how do you know this?

[biscuity]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1852206' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:14 PM']Biscuity,

How do you know so much about Cameron's operation? Specific things like this quote from post #1458:

"That's why he has a staff of 16 people at the Putter Studio to help him."

I'm not sure many of the 'whales' or experts know exactly how many people Scotty employs at the Putter Studio. If you don't mind sharing, how do you know the exact number?

Thanks.
Kevin[/quote]


It's in the Autoweek interview, I posted the link.

[tpariff]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852239' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:27 PM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1852206' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:14 PM']Biscuity,

How do you know so much about Cameron's operation? Specific things like this quote from post #1458:

"That's why he has a staff of 16 people at the Putter Studio to help him."

I'm not sure many of the 'whales' or experts know exactly how many people Scotty employs at the Putter Studio. If you don't mind sharing, how do you know the exact number?

Thanks.
Kevin[/quote]


It's in the Autoweek interview, I posted the link.
[/quote]

Mind pointing me to that post or the article?

Thanks.
Kevin

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='geogolf' post='1852181' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:01 PM'][quote]the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.[/quote]

Almost. TCC had some threads regarding other putters. In an effort to keep TCC strictly Cameron- PT was formed. Then..... things went wacko.
[/quote]


[quote name='foregasim' post='1852201' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:12 PM'][quote name='geogolf' post='1852181' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:01 PM'][quote]the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.[/quote]

Almost. TCC had some threads regarding other putters. In an effort to keep TCC strictly Cameron- PT was formed. Then..... things went wacko.
[/quote]
The final straw that made Cameron take the action he did regarding TCC was the fact that TCC had a fund raising thread to collect donations for T.P. Mills funeral. At a lunch meeting in California with Doug, Cameron, Margaret (Cameron's personal assistant) I believe Hank and a really nice collector, Cameron express how inappropriate it was for a Cameron forum to raise money for T.P. Mills funeral. That there should be no talk what so ever about any other putter makers on TCC. Cameron was irate that Doug would use "Cameron's" name in association with collecting donations for the Mills funeral.

That was when PutterTalk was formed so that there would not be any discussions on TCC about any other putter makers, dead or alive. Cameron never got over that situation and decided to pull all support from TCC and gave ultimatums to those involved with overseeing the site.

That told me a lot about what type of guy Cameron is.
[/quote]

The whole purpose of PT was to create a venue for putter fanatics to discuss other putters while respecting that TCC would only pertain to discussions of Cameron products. So what that the creator of TCC wanted to create another putter site discussing all others. The creator of TCC did much for Cameron in the creation and nurturing of TCC by creating a place for established Cameron collectors to congregate in a forum that was much better designed than another that was hosted on Yahoo (sorry Vog). Not only could established collectors meet at TCC but the polished site was enticing to new collectors of Cameron products. The community feeling that the creator of TCC established made TCC feel like an old friend. Because of TCC I would bet that more putters were sold creating more profit for Cameron.

How does Cameron show gratitude to a guy that created the site, hosted it on [u][b]his[/b][/u] own servers, put his own labor (and some people that worked for him) into the site, welcomed new members as one of the family, created a benevolent oligarchy so that peace was the norm, never asking dime one from anyone, including Cameron? Cameron had a hissy fit. Nice, very nice way to treat a guy that introduced many of us to the world of the prototype tour putter called the 009 (Cameron's cash cow of the past 4 years or so).

So what that Doug wanted to raise monies for TP Mills' funeral. That shows his affinity to the art of putters, not to an individual. Besides, Cameron owed A LOT to TP Mills, even though he will never admit it. To have a grown man have a tantrum regarding that issue on a site dedicated to him is just tacky, IMO. If Cameron fronted the money for the site, hosted the server, maintained the site then I see his point. However, Cameron benefited from the site and could have allowed this issue to pass then request that that would be the last occurrence of topics other than Cameron topics on the site. Even with that, Cameron did not own the site so I guess he would (and did) take other course of action because of his name.

Can anyone say "[i]Strong arm?"[/i]
This is a perfect example why there is a division for those who once liked Cameron.

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1852201' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:12 PM'][quote name='geogolf' post='1852181' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:01 PM'][quote]the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.[/quote]

Almost. TCC had some threads regarding other putters. In an effort to keep TCC strictly Cameron- PT was formed. Then..... things went wacko.
[/quote]
The final straw that made Cameron take the action he did regarding TCC was the fact that TCC had a fund raising thread to collect donations for T.P. Mills funeral. At a lunch meeting in California with Doug, Cameron, Margaret (Cameron's personal assistant) I believe Hank and a really nice collector, Cameron express how inappropriate it was for a Cameron forum to raise money for T.P. Mills funeral. That there should be no talk what so ever about any other putter makers on TCC. Cameron was irate that Doug would use "Cameron's" name in association with collecting donations for the Mills funeral.

That was when PutterTalk was formed so that there would not be any discussions on TCC about any other putter makers, dead or alive. Cameron never got over that situation and decided to pull all support from TCC and gave ultimatums to those involved with overseeing the site.

That told me a lot about what type of guy Cameron is.
[/quote]

Nice story, but the fact is that Scotty allowed the thread to continue on TCC, people made donations, there was no scandal.

[url="http://www.cameroncollector.com/forum/index.php/topic,4774.0.html"]http://www.cameroncollector.com/forum/inde...pic,4774.0.html[/url]

If Scotty was concerned about the trend of starting threads for funeral donations I can fully understand that he impose a policy so that donation threads are not allowed in the future, but he didn't stop the TP Mills donation thread.

[biscuity]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1852248' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:37 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1852239' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:27 PM'][quote name='tpariff' post='1852206' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:14 PM']Biscuity,

How do you know so much about Cameron's operation? Specific things like this quote from post #1458:

"That's why he has a staff of 16 people at the Putter Studio to help him."

I'm not sure many of the 'whales' or experts know exactly how many people Scotty employs at the Putter Studio. If you don't mind sharing, how do you know the exact number?

Thanks.
Kevin[/quote]


It's in the Autoweek interview, I posted the link.
[/quote]

Mind pointing me to that post or the article?

Thanks.
Kevin

[/quote]

Sure, here you go:

[url="http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/FREE/851820987"]http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../FREE/851820987[/url]

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852258' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:46 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1852201' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:12 PM'][quote name='geogolf' post='1852181' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:01 PM'][quote]the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.[/quote]

Almost. TCC had some threads regarding other putters. In an effort to keep TCC strictly Cameron- PT was formed. Then..... things went wacko.
[/quote]
The final straw that made Cameron take the action he did regarding TCC was the fact that TCC had a fund raising thread to collect donations for T.P. Mills funeral. At a lunch meeting in California with Doug, Cameron, Margaret (Cameron's personal assistant) I believe Hank and a really nice collector, Cameron express how inappropriate it was for a Cameron forum to raise money for T.P. Mills funeral. That there should be no talk what so ever about any other putter makers on TCC. Cameron was irate that Doug would use "Cameron's" name in association with collecting donations for the Mills funeral.

That was when PutterTalk was formed so that there would not be any discussions on TCC about any other putter makers, dead or alive. Cameron never got over that situation and decided to pull all support from TCC and gave ultimatums to those involved with overseeing the site.

That told me a lot about what type of guy Cameron is.
[/quote]

Nice story, but the fact is that Scotty allowed the thread to continue on TCC, people made donations, there was no scandal.

[url="http://www.cameroncollector.com/forum/index.php/topic,4774.0.html"]http://www.cameroncollector.com/forum/inde...pic,4774.0.html[/url]

If Scotty was concerned about the trend of starting threads for funeral donations I can fully understand that he impose a policy so that donation threads are not allowed in the future, but he didn't stop the TP Mills donation thread.
[/quote]

The problem with your logic is that you believe that Cameron had content control at TCC. I know that Cameron requested 2 threads to be ended when Doug ran the site. One thread Doug did end, the other (the TP Mills memorial thread) he did not end. This is why Cameron acted the way he did. While Doug ran the site, Cameron had little, if any, influence in how the site ran. Maybe this is one reason that Cameron drew the line in the sand regarding TCC that he did. Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way.

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852255' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:45 PM']The whole purpose of PT was to create a venue for putter fanatics to discuss other putters while respecting that TCC would only pertain to discussions of Cameron products. So what that the creator of TCC wanted to create another putter site discussing all others. The creator of TCC did much for Cameron in the creation and nurturing of TCC by creating a place for established Cameron collectors to congregate in a forum that was much better designed than another that was hosted on Yahoo (sorry Vog). Not only could established collectors meet at TCC but the polished site was enticing to new collectors of Cameron products. The community feeling that the creator of TCC established made TCC feel like an old friend. Because of TCC I would bet that more putters were sold creating more profit for Cameron.

How does Cameron show gratitude to a guy that created the site, hosted it on [u][b]his[/b][/u] own servers, put his own labor (and some people that worked for him) into the site, welcomed new members as one of the family, created a benevolent oligarchy so that peace was the norm, never asking dime one from anyone, including Cameron? Cameron had a hissy fit. Nice, very nice way to treat a guy that introduced many of us to the world of the prototype tour putter called the 009 (Cameron's cash cow of the past 4 years or so).

So what that Doug wanted to raise monies for TP Mills' funeral. That shows his affinity to the art of putters, not to an individual. Besides, Cameron owed A LOT to TP Mills, even though he will never admit it. To have a grown man have a tantrum regarding that issue on a site dedicated to him is just tacky, IMO. If Cameron fronted the money for the site, hosted the server, maintained the site then I see his point. However, Cameron benefited from the site and could have allowed this issue to pass then request that that would be the last occurrence of topics other than Cameron topics on the site. Even with that, Cameron did not own the site so I guess he would (and did) take other course of action because of his name.

Can anyone say "[i]Strong arm?"[/i]
This is a perfect example why there is a division for those who once liked Cameron.[/quote]

That's one view of the situation that is based on stories you heard from the people who Scotty cut off. Maybe they have bad feelings about the situation, maybe that story is 100% accurate. But if I had a forum dedicated to my products I would not want the owner of that site diverting his attention by starting another forum that promoted other brands of putters. Doug wanted to branch out, Scotty wanted to stay focused. Doug was using "Cameron" in the domain name, Doug knew that he couldn't use it if Scotty didn't want him to. Scotty decided that his company would be better served by a person 100% committed to Cameron products. Makes sense to me. Doug is happy, Scotty is happy.

[Johnny]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852283' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:01 PM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852255' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:45 PM']The whole purpose of PT was to create a venue for putter fanatics to discuss other putters while respecting that TCC would only pertain to discussions of Cameron products. So what that the creator of TCC wanted to create another putter site discussing all others. The creator of TCC did much for Cameron in the creation and nurturing of TCC by creating a place for established Cameron collectors to congregate in a forum that was much better designed than another that was hosted on Yahoo (sorry Vog). Not only could established collectors meet at TCC but the polished site was enticing to new collectors of Cameron products. The community feeling that the creator of TCC established made TCC feel like an old friend. Because of TCC I would bet that more putters were sold creating more profit for Cameron.

How does Cameron show gratitude to a guy that created the site, hosted it on [u][b]his[/b][/u] own servers, put his own labor (and some people that worked for him) into the site, welcomed new members as one of the family, created a benevolent oligarchy so that peace was the norm, never asking dime one from anyone, including Cameron? Cameron had a hissy fit. Nice, very nice way to treat a guy that introduced many of us to the world of the prototype tour putter called the 009 (Cameron's cash cow of the past 4 years or so).

So what that Doug wanted to raise monies for TP Mills' funeral. That shows his affinity to the art of putters, not to an individual. Besides, Cameron owed A LOT to TP Mills, even though he will never admit it. To have a grown man have a tantrum regarding that issue on a site dedicated to him is just tacky, IMO. If Cameron fronted the money for the site, hosted the server, maintained the site then I see his point. However, Cameron benefited from the site and could have allowed this issue to pass then request that that would be the last occurrence of topics other than Cameron topics on the site. Even with that, Cameron did not own the site so I guess he would (and did) take other course of action because of his name.

Can anyone say "[i]Strong arm?"[/i]
This is a perfect example why there is a division for those who once liked Cameron.[/quote]

That's one view of the situation that is based on stories you heard from the people who Scotty cut off. Maybe they have bad feelings about the situation, maybe that story is 100% accurate. But if I had a forum dedicated to my products I would not want the owner of that site diverting his attention by starting another forum that promoted other brands of putters. Doug wanted to branch out, Scotty wanted to stay focused. Doug was using "Cameron" in the domain name, Doug knew that he couldn't use it if Scotty didn't want him to. Scotty decided that his company would be better served by a person 100% committed to Cameron products. Makes sense to me. Doug is happy, Scotty is happy.
[/quote]

actually scotty would have a hell of a time trying to get that domain name if Doug really wanted to keep it... now maybe ScottyCameron.com he might win, but CameronCollector.Com..well it's totally within someone rights to use that.

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852271' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:55 PM']The problem with your logic is that you believe that Cameron had content control at TCC. I know that Cameron requested 2 threads to be ended when Doug ran the site. One thread Doug did end, the other (the TP Mills memorial thread) he did not end. This is why Cameron acted the way he did. While Doug ran the site, Cameron had little, if any, influence in how the site ran. Maybe this is one reason that Cameron drew the line in the sand regarding TCC that he did. Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way.[/quote]


Sorry, but I refuse to believe Scotty didn't have the power/authority to call Doug and have him remove that thread immediately if he wanted to.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852283' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:01 PM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852255' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:45 PM']The whole purpose of PT was to create a venue for putter fanatics to discuss other putters while respecting that TCC would only pertain to discussions of Cameron products. So what that the creator of TCC wanted to create another putter site discussing all others. The creator of TCC did much for Cameron in the creation and nurturing of TCC by creating a place for established Cameron collectors to congregate in a forum that was much better designed than another that was hosted on Yahoo (sorry Vog). Not only could established collectors meet at TCC but the polished site was enticing to new collectors of Cameron products. The community feeling that the creator of TCC established made TCC feel like an old friend. Because of TCC I would bet that more putters were sold creating more profit for Cameron.

How does Cameron show gratitude to a guy that created the site, hosted it on [u][b]his[/b][/u] own servers, put his own labor (and some people that worked for him) into the site, welcomed new members as one of the family, created a benevolent oligarchy so that peace was the norm, never asking dime one from anyone, including Cameron? Cameron had a hissy fit. Nice, very nice way to treat a guy that introduced many of us to the world of the prototype tour putter called the 009 (Cameron's cash cow of the past 4 years or so).

So what that Doug wanted to raise monies for TP Mills' funeral. That shows his affinity to the art of putters, not to an individual. Besides, Cameron owed A LOT to TP Mills, even though he will never admit it. To have a grown man have a tantrum regarding that issue on a site dedicated to him is just tacky, IMO. If Cameron fronted the money for the site, hosted the server, maintained the site then I see his point. However, Cameron benefited from the site and could have allowed this issue to pass then request that that would be the last occurrence of topics other than Cameron topics on the site. Even with that, Cameron did not own the site so I guess he would (and did) take other course of action because of his name.

Can anyone say "[i]Strong arm?"[/i]
This is a perfect example why there is a division for those who once liked Cameron.[/quote]

That's one view of the situation that is based on stories you heard from the people who Scotty cut off. Maybe they have bad feelings about the situation, maybe that story is 100% accurate. But if I had a forum dedicated to my products I would not want the owner of that site diverting his attention by starting another forum that promoted other brands of putters. Doug wanted to branch out, Scotty wanted to stay focused. Doug was using "Cameron" in the domain name, Doug knew that he couldn't use it if Scotty didn't want him to. Scotty decided that his company would be better served by a person 100% committed to Cameron products. Makes sense to me. Doug is happy, Scotty is happy.
[/quote]

The problem is that Doug and the moderators were 100% committed to Cameron at TCC. It did not matter that PT was created because that site had little, if anything, to do with TCC. Yes, there was discussion for having a Cameron board at PT so they did but it was recommended to discuss Cameron putters at TCC because that was where the best dialog could be found. That was the intent. Regarding the people that were cut off, it was the moderators that chose the end result, not Cameron. Cameron drew the line in the sand and the moderators chose to cross it. Yes, they could have turned their backs on Doug and kept their positions with Cameron but those who crossed did so because of valuing a friendship more than bribery.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852293' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852271' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:55 PM']The problem with your logic is that you believe that Cameron had content control at TCC. I know that Cameron requested 2 threads to be ended when Doug ran the site. One thread Doug did end, the other (the TP Mills memorial thread) he did not end. This is why Cameron acted the way he did. While Doug ran the site, Cameron had little, if any, influence in how the site ran. Maybe this is one reason that Cameron drew the line in the sand regarding TCC that he did. Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way.[/quote]


Sorry, but I refuse to believe Scotty didn't have the power/authority to call Doug and have him remove that thread immediately if he wanted to.
[/quote]
How so?

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852297' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:10 PM']The problem is that Doug and the moderators were 100% committed to Cameron at TCC. It did not matter that PT was created because that site had little, if anything, to do with TCC. Yes, there was discussion for having a Cameron board at PT so they did but it was recommended to discuss Cameron putters at TCC because that was where the best dialog could be found. That was the intent. Regarding the people that were cut off, it was the moderators that chose the end result, not Cameron. Cameron drew the line in the sand and the moderators chose to cross it. Yes, they could have turned their backs on Doug and kept their positions with Cameron but those who crossed did so because of valuing a friendship more than bribery.[/quote]


Words like "bribery" are what get topics like this heated up to the point where you have to say "Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way."


The moderators had a choice: Cameron putters or "Other" putters.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852293' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:08 PM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852271' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:55 PM']The problem with your logic is that you believe that Cameron had content control at TCC. I know that Cameron requested 2 threads to be ended when Doug ran the site. One thread Doug did end, the other (the TP Mills memorial thread) he did not end. This is why Cameron acted the way he did. While Doug ran the site, Cameron had little, if any, influence in how the site ran. Maybe this is one reason that Cameron drew the line in the sand regarding TCC that he did. Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way.[/quote]


Sorry, but I refuse to believe Scotty didn't have the power/authority to call Doug and have him remove that thread immediately if he wanted to.
[/quote]

You can believe what you want but that is the facts. Maybe if you believed in this simple fact then your view might change. It is because of this that this whole "wacko" situation got out of hand. Cameron did not even acknowledge TCC until after Vog took it over. Just look at the scottycameron.com and scroll through the archives or read the blog. Never, and I mean never, did Cameron publicly acknowledge Doug for all the hard work he, and his moderators, put into the site.

Doug was loyal, and I mean LOYAL. I should know because as a new member (with 80 or 90 posts) I tried to sell an aftermarket refinished Studio Design 1 and Doug removed my thread. He sent me a PM explaining why he removed my thread because of a violation of the aftermarket rules that was instituted a day or two prior and how he wanted the content to be about Cameron's work only. This began a dialog with Doug about several things and I can tell you from first hand account that he is a tremendous person, one of integrity and class. Doug could have admonished me but he did not and I respect him for that. He treated a new member kindly.

So that said, when Doug said he had no influence by Cameron, or very very little, I believe him. Maybe this would be a reason that Cameron wanted Doug out of TCC. Possible? Probable?

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852309' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:17 PM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852297' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:10 PM']The problem is that Doug and the moderators were 100% committed to Cameron at TCC. It did not matter that PT was created because that site had little, if anything, to do with TCC. Yes, there was discussion for having a Cameron board at PT so they did but it was recommended to discuss Cameron putters at TCC because that was where the best dialog could be found. That was the intent. Regarding the people that were cut off, it was the moderators that chose the end result, not Cameron. Cameron drew the line in the sand and the moderators chose to cross it. Yes, they could have turned their backs on Doug and kept their positions with Cameron but those who crossed did so because of valuing a friendship more than bribery.[/quote]


Words like "bribery" are what get topics like this heated up to the point where you have to say "Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way."


The moderators had a choice: Cameron putters or "Other" putters.
[/quote]

My use of "Such a pity ..." pertains to what happened to TCC a couple years back. It has nothing to do with this thread.


Well, what would you call it when Cameron lays down an edict that if a person remained a moderator at TCC with Doug running it they would not have access to the Studio and Cameron and would not even be able to buy an oil cloth? What is that? In my book it is either a threat or a bribe or both.

Ok, many people made the choice and no longer own a Cameron putter. I know I am one of them, not because I did not like my Camerons, but because I abhor the business scruples of someone I cannot respect. If I am wrong regarding this whole situation I will be the first to apologize. So if I am wrong then show me that I am with empirical facts, not contrived theories or hypotheticals or smears. Keep in mind I sold one of my most favorite putters that I ever owned, one that I truly loved (AC VII), because of my conviction. At the end of the day I have to be true to myself and I believe that I have done so.

[Redman]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852293' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852271' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:55 PM']The problem with your logic is that you believe that Cameron had content control at TCC. I know that Cameron requested 2 threads to be ended when Doug ran the site. One thread Doug did end, the other (the TP Mills memorial thread) he did not end. This is why Cameron acted the way he did. While Doug ran the site, Cameron had little, if any, influence in how the site ran. Maybe this is one reason that Cameron drew the line in the sand regarding TCC that he did. Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way.[/quote]


Sorry, but I refuse to believe Scotty didn't have the power/authority to call Doug and have him remove that thread immediately if he wanted to.
[/quote]


See I just don't understand your rebuttal here. Once again someone (RD in this case) has supplied very good information to go along with Foregasim's post and your defense has no logic behind it or any ground to stand on at all.

[Redman]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852283' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:01 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852255' date='Jul 29 2009, 08:45 PM']The whole purpose of PT was to create a venue for putter fanatics to discuss other putters while respecting that TCC would only pertain to discussions of Cameron products. So what that the creator of TCC wanted to create another putter site discussing all others. The creator of TCC did much for Cameron in the creation and nurturing of TCC by creating a place for established Cameron collectors to congregate in a forum that was much better designed than another that was hosted on Yahoo (sorry Vog). Not only could established collectors meet at TCC but the polished site was enticing to new collectors of Cameron products. The community feeling that the creator of TCC established made TCC feel like an old friend. Because of TCC I would bet that more putters were sold creating more profit for Cameron.

How does Cameron show gratitude to a guy that created the site, hosted it on [u][b]his[/b][/u] own servers, put his own labor (and some people that worked for him) into the site, welcomed new members as one of the family, created a benevolent oligarchy so that peace was the norm, never asking dime one from anyone, including Cameron? Cameron had a hissy fit. Nice, very nice way to treat a guy that introduced many of us to the world of the prototype tour putter called the 009 (Cameron's cash cow of the past 4 years or so).

So what that Doug wanted to raise monies for TP Mills' funeral. That shows his affinity to the art of putters, not to an individual. Besides, Cameron owed A LOT to TP Mills, even though he will never admit it. To have a grown man have a tantrum regarding that issue on a site dedicated to him is just tacky, IMO. If Cameron fronted the money for the site, hosted the server, maintained the site then I see his point. However, Cameron benefited from the site and could have allowed this issue to pass then request that that would be the last occurrence of topics other than Cameron topics on the site. Even with that, Cameron did not own the site so I guess he would (and did) take other course of action because of his name.

Can anyone say "[i]Strong arm?"[/i]
This is a perfect example why there is a division for those who once liked Cameron.[/quote]

That's one view of the situation that is based on stories you heard from the people who Scotty cut off. Maybe they have bad feelings about the situation, maybe that story is 100% accurate. But if I had a forum dedicated to my products I would not want the owner of that site diverting his attention by starting another forum that promoted other brands of putters. Doug wanted to branch out, Scotty wanted to stay focused. Doug was using "Cameron" in the domain name, Doug knew that he couldn't use it if Scotty didn't want him to. Scotty decided that his company would be better served by a person 100% committed to Cameron products. Makes sense to me. Doug is happy, Scotty is happy.
[/quote]

I think this is exactly why Foregasim, if he is JR, would never say so. If he did then all the Cameron defenders would say that it is all BS coming from him because he was cut off and now has bad feelings. At least that is my opinion.

[RobotDoctor]

<---------- Does this thread make you want to do this?

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852283' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:01 PM']... But if I had a forum dedicated to my products I would not want the owner of that site diverting his attention by starting another forum that promoted other brands of putters. ...[/quote]

Personally, I would welcome comparisons with other makers of a product I make because, since I would strive to create the best product. The competition would ensure that I did. I would not tend to be complacent and work by tail off to ensure I made the best product that customers wanted. If not, I would perish because my product was inferior. If I believed in myself as much as Cameron believes in himself then why be threatened by competition? The only reason to be threatened with another putter board is because maybe other putter makers make as good, or better, putter than Cameron does and, maybe, Cameron knows this.

Let me add that if not for the business side I have come to know, I would love to own a AC VII again. Did I say that I loved that putter?

[Redman]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852348' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:38 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1852283' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:01 PM']... But if I had a forum dedicated to my products I would not want the owner of that site diverting his attention by starting another forum that promoted other brands of putters. ...[/quote]

Personally, I would welcome comparisons with other makers of a product I make because, since I would strive to create the best product. The competition would ensure that I did. I would not tend to be complacent and work by tail off to ensure I made the best product that customers wanted. If not, I would perish because my product was inferior. If I believed in myself as much as Cameron believes in himself then why be threatened by competition? The only reason to be threatened with another putter board is because maybe other putter makers make as good, or better, putter than Cameron does and, maybe, Cameron knows this.

Let me add that if not for the business side I have come to know, I would love to own a AC VII again. Did I say that I loved that putter?
[/quote]

+1.....I would have to say that Putter Talk, while having ALL putter makers on it, has been a win for all. The consumer gets to look at all models and compare what they like and don't like and report that back to the companies so they can improve their product and meet the demands of the consumer. What I have seen, myself included, is that members on Putter Talk are putter lovers and tend to own putters from each maker.