Els' calamity on 15

[djmohab2]

the hell?

I'm sure someone else had to have seen this. On 15 today, Els hit a chip from off the back of the green and nearly ran it into the front lateral hazard. Thinking it went in, he went to drop a ball, until the roar of the patrons made him think otherwise. Feherty then explained if he had mistakenly dropped the ball, that ball is in play with a penalty. Under what circumstances? His original ball is clearly not lost, in a hazard, or out of bounds. That basically sounds like a mulligan with a penalty attached. I don't get this.

[dannybsj]

Well i think its because you can't have two balls in play at once. You can play a provisional but its not in play until you deem the other lost. I guess had he taken the drop, he would have two "live" balls so to speak. He may have had the option of takin an unplayable however i'm not sure how that works.

[BIRD]

ive been waiting for his handsy chipping to catch up to him . . lol i had a bet on that to happen . . he already doubled that hole . . imagine if he dropped that ball . . would have been in double digits possibly

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='djmohab2' date='09 April 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1270874124' post='2371218']
... Under what circumstances?...
[/quote]

[url]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#26/6[/url]

The only thing is the decision is based on the golfer "playing" a second ball. Someone more knowledgible than me will have to comment if the mere act of "dropping" a second ball puts that ball into play.

[ShortsTuff]

It's rule 20-4


[b]20-4. When Ball Dropped or Placed Is in Play[/b]
If the player's [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

A [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#SubstitutedBall"][i]substituted ball[/i][/url] becomes the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] when it has been dropped or placed.





Lucky for him the crowd was paying attention.

[Sawgrass]

Yes, it was lucky for him that the crowd had a better view and was vocal.

 

I'm not positive as to how this would be judged, but I'm quite sure it might also have been lucky for his fellow competitors that neither of them spontaneously burst out with "Wait! You didn't go in!"

 

I suspect that either of them doing that would have been deemed giving advice on how to play the hole, and they would have been the ones who suffered a penalty:

 

 

8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

 

(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or

(b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.

 

 

8-1/16 Suggesting to Competitor That He Deem His Ball Unplayable

 

Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

 

A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B "in determining his play." Thus, it constituted advice — see Definition of "Advice." It did not constitute "information on the Rules," which is not advice.

 

 

[golfer6]

OK, what is a caddie for? I quess this guy should be taken off the bank roll.

[Sawgrass]

It seemed to me that Els lifted his arm to drop a new ball almost immediately after he hit toward the pond. I don't recall if he took a ball out of his pocket or asked his caddie for one though . . . anybody know? The whole thing was so odd and shocking it was a little hard to track. It even got the announcers flustered.

Maybe you're right though Golfer6 . . . maybe his caddie participated in the making of that near calamity.

[jparsons54]

Did you guys see where his 2nd shot ended up? It was a good 30 yards short of the hole, it was significantly closer to staying short of the water then clearing it.

Jamie

[forgedforever]

Yep, Sawgrass, as I recall his arm was extended and he was ready to make a drop.

I don't recall how he got the ball.

I recall the crowd groaning fairly loudly, as if the ball might have gone in the water.

The caddie should have been "on his horse" to see the result before Els did anything. Ernie was extremely close to making a drop.

[DLiver]

Yes, it was lucky for him that the crowd had a better view and was vocal.

 

I'm not positive as to how this would be judged, but I'm quite sure it might also have been lucky for his fellow competitors that neither of them spontaneously burst out with "Wait! You didn't go in!"

 

I suspect that either of them doing that would have been deemed giving advice on how to play the hole, and they would have been the ones who suffered a penalty:

 

 

8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

 

(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or

(b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.

 

 

8-1/16 Suggesting to Competitor That He Deem His Ball Unplayable

 

Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

 

A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B "in determining his play." Thus, it constituted advice — see Definition of "Advice." It did not constitute "information on the Rules," which is not advice.

 

 

 

It would have been okay in that instance for a fellow competitor to tell Els the ball didn't go into the hazard. That would be a point of fact rather than advice, which is perfectly okay.

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DLiver' date='10 April 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1270909141' post='2371633']
It would have been okay in that instance for a fellow competitor to tell Els the ball didn't go into the hazard. That would be a point of fact rather than advice, which is perfectly okay.



[/quote]


Are you sure DLiver? Even if stating that point of fact clearly has an implication that you shouldn't choose to drop? I recall a ruling where a player's wife or girlfriend standing outside the ropes simply motioned with her body that the player should stand more upright, and it was ruled that he only escaped the penalty because he didn't ask her, and if he allowed her to do it again he would have been penalized. The point being that "advice" is a touchy subject. I think, but I'm not sure, that I remember another situation where a fellow competitor simply stating a relief rule was judged to be advice to a player, and that is clearly allowed if someone asks what the rule is (rather than have another "force" the information on him). But you could be right.

[DLiver]

Sawgrass, I'm pretty sure on this one. You can tall another player how far it is to something (like a creek) because that is a fact. But you can tell him it plays 6 yards longer because of wind (that is an opinion, and therefore considered advice).

I agree with you that this area of the rules is pretty fuzzy. When I'm in competition, I am always careful about what I say to other players.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DLiver' date='10 April 2010 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1270910337' post='2371656']
Sawgrass, I'm pretty sure on this one. You can tall another player how far it is to something (like a creek) because that is a fact. But you can tell him it plays 6 yards longer because of wind (that is an opinion, and therefore considered advice).

I agree with you that this area of the rules is pretty fuzzy. When I'm in competition, I am always careful about what I say to other players.
[/quote]

It [u]is[/u] fuzzy. It's clearly stated in the rules that you can provide distance information, but saying, "Wait! It's only 225 to the water hazard!" may be something other than distance information, depending on your point of view - - perhaps even without the word, "Wait!" depending on your tone of voice.

Let me yell for an official.

[Mainlinegolfer]

I was going to post what DLiver did. This is not Advice, it's testimony about whether "knowledge or virtual certainty exists" as to the location of the ball, i.e. did it go into the hazard?

This is an excerpt from the Decision 26-1/1:
[quote]
All available evidence must be taken into account in determining whether knowledge or virtual certainty exists, including any testimony and the physical conditions in the area around the water hazard. For example, if a water hazard is surrounded by a fairway on which a ball could hardly be lost, there exists a greater certainty that the ball is in the hazard than there would be if there were deep rough in the area. Observing a ball splash in a water hazard would not necessarily provide knowledge or virtual certainty as to the location of the ball as sometimes such a ball may skip out of a hazard.
[/quote]

[bigred90gt]

It would think it wold be the same as reminding a competitor to replace his ball mark, that he moved so you could putt, before stroking his putt. From my understanding, Seeking information on the rules, or offering said information, is allowable.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='10 April 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1270914560' post='2371751']
It would think it wold be the same as reminding a competitor to replace his ball mark, that he moved so you could putt, before stroking his putt. From my understanding, Seeking information on the rules, or offering said information, is allowable.
[/quote]


That's a very good parallel Bigred. And it is definitely a situation where you can legally offer that information, as you can if you notice a fellow competitor has teed his ball up in front of the tee markers before he hits.

I've never been able to get it totally clear in my mind though as to why those two instances are not advice, so I remain unclear as to how other instances like this subject one compare. I presume that informing your fellow competitor that he is hitting from the wrong place (as you bring to our attention) is different than "advice", but there still seems to be a chance to me that yelling, "Your ball didn't go in the water!" with the intention to imply to a player that he not drop a new ball is more along the lines of advice like decision 8-1/16 which I posted above. I wish I could find a clearer USGA decision on this nuance.

[ram01002]

els is a fool - instead of using the same caddie he has won with twice this year; he calls his buddy up to the big leagues . . . caddy has zero ability to help his player, and the crowd has to do the caddie's job for him.

[jackfig]

[quote]Yep, Sawgrass, as I recall his arm was extended and he was ready to make a drop.

I don't recall how he got the ball.

I recall the crowd groaning fairly loudly, as if the ball might have gone in the water.

The caddie should have been "on his horse" to see the result before Els did anything. Ernie was extremely close to making a drop.[/quote]

I did happen to notice that Els was handed the ball by his caddy. I don't know if Els asked for it or not.

According to the announcers, in years past, Els' ball most certainly would have gone into the water. Only this year was the fringe around the green grown another 1/2" - just enough to hold the ball.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='10 April 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1270915738' post='2371787']

That's a very good parallel Bigred. And it is definitely a situation where you can legally offer that information, as you can if you notice a fellow competitor has teed his ball up in front of the tee markers before he hits.

[/quote]
I had something similar happen in a tournament. I teed up my ball, picked my line, and had addressed the ball. I had performed my typical pre-shot waggle, and just as I was about to swing, all 3 of the guys in my group start yelling "WOAH WOAH! DONT HIT!". I thought someone had driven their cart out in our fairway or walked in front of the tee box or something. I backed off, and one of the guys says "you're at the wrong tee". None of us noticed until right before I hit. I'm no rules official, but I wouldnt think they should be penalized for giving advice.

[SNIPERBBB]

[quote name='ram01002' date='10 April 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1270920283' post='2371872']
els is a fool - instead of using the same caddie he has won with twice this year; he calls his buddy up to the big leagues . . . caddy has zero ability to help his player, and the crowd has to do the caddie's job for him.
[/quote]

This week's caddy was scheduled for the Masters before E's wins last month.

[jjj912]

[quote name='djmohab2' date='10 April 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1270874124' post='2371218']
I'm sure someone else had to have seen this. On 15 today, Els hit a chip from off the back of the green and nearly ran it into the front lateral hazard. Thinking it went in, he went to drop a ball, until the roar of the patrons made him think otherwise. Feherty then explained if he had mistakenly dropped the ball, that ball is in play with a penalty. Under what circumstances? His original ball is clearly not lost, in a hazard, or out of bounds. That basically sounds like a mulligan with a penalty attached. I don't get this.
[/quote]


[quote name='ShortsTuff' date='10 April 2010 - 03:38 AM' timestamp='1270885131' post='2371364']
It's rule 20-4


[b]20-4. When Ball Dropped or Placed Is in Play[/b]
If the player's [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

A [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#SubstitutedBall"][i]substituted ball[/i][/url] becomes the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] when it has been dropped or placed.





Lucky for him the crowd was paying attention.
[/quote]

I believe the situation is more complicated than this. And I think that Feherty is wrong in his statement about the Rules.

[b]Rule 15-2[/b] [i]"A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. The substituted ball becomes the ball in play. If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball."[/i]

[b]Rule 20-6[/b] [i]"A ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules [u]but not played may be lifted, without penalty[/u], and the player must then proceed correctly."[/i]

Even if Els makes the drop, he can still rectify the situation without penalty provided he does not make a stroke at the incorrectly substitued ball.

[Newby]

[quote name='jjj912' date='14 April 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1271273668' post='2379823']

[b]Rule 15-2[/b] [i]"A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. The substituted ball becomes the ball in play. If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball."[/i]

[/quote]

See 27-1a.

[Sawgrass]

As noted in some of my earlier posts in this thread, I was uncertain about a hypothetical situation in which a fellow competitor warned a player that his ball was not in a hazard when the player, like Els did, assumed it was in a hazard.

I chose to write to the USGA about this, and following is the note I sent them:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My question involves interpreting rule "8-1 Advice."

A player hits his ball toward a water hazard, which is down hill and hidden from his line of sight. He incorrectly assumes that his ball went in the hazard, and decides to drop a ball where he last hit rather than choose a different relief option. The player holds out his arm ready to drop. His fellow competitor, standing in a different location, sees that the player's ball did not run down the hill into the water as he assumes the player imagined. Out of generosity, the fellow competitor yells, "It didn't go in!" The fellow competitor's intention in yelling out this point of information is to alert the player to reconsider his decision to put a new ball in play.

My question is whether the above fellow competitor violated the rule against providing advice. I understand that if a player asked his fellow competitor if he can see his ball, that question or the answer would not be advice -- but I'm wondering if providing this information in the manner I described above crosses the line into "counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play."

Thanks for your consideration.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I got a response from the USGA today, and they inform me that we are always entitiled to determine where a fellow competitors ball is, and that our competitor is always obligated to identify his ball should he be requested to do so. Given that entitlement and that obligation, there would be no penalty for providing advice given the hypothetical situation I described above.

Thought some of you might like to know.

[jjj912]

[quote name='Newby' date='14 April 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1271282760' post='2380053']
[quote name='jjj912' date='14 April 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1271273668' post='2379823']

[b]Rule 15-2[/b] [i]"A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. The substituted ball becomes the ball in play. If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball."[/i]

[/quote]

See 27-1a.
[/quote]

27-1a requires you to make a stroke. Only if Els had made a stroke, he would have had the penalty. The OP said Feherty said just the dropping of the ball by itself would have incurred the penalty, and I don't think that is true.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='jjj912' date='15 April 2010 - 06:33 AM' timestamp='1271338433' post='2380951']
[quote name='Newby' date='14 April 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1271282760' post='2380053']
[quote name='jjj912' date='14 April 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1271273668' post='2379823']
[b]Rule 15-2[/b] [i]"A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. The substituted ball becomes the ball in play. If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball."[/i]

[/quote]

See 27-1a.
[/quote]

27-1a requires you to make a stroke. Only if Els had made a stroke, he would have had the penalty. The OP said Feherty said just the dropping of the ball by itself would have incurred the penalty, and I don't think that is true.
[/quote]


Rule 27 applies to a ball lost or out of bounds. Not applicable in this situation.

[Newby]

[quote name='tjy355' date='15 April 2010 - 06:15 PM' timestamp='1271355318' post='2381499']


Rule 27 applies to a ball lost or out of bounds. Not applicable in this situation.
[/quote]

[color="#ff0000"][b]At any time[/b][/color], a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14292#20-5"]20-5[/url]), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

Except as otherwise provided in the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i]Rules[/i][/url], [b] if a player makes a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Stroke"][i]stroke[/i][/url] at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.[/b]

[Newby]

[quote name='jjj912' date='15 April 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1271338433' post='2380951']
27-1a requires you to make a stroke. Only if Els had made a stroke, he would have had the penalty. The OP said Feherty said just the dropping of the ball by itself would have incurred the penalty, and I don't think that is true.
[/quote]

The point I was making was that he was permitted to substitute a ball under 27-1a. 15-2 is about a situation where substitution is not allowed.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='ShortsTuff' date='10 April 2010 - 03:38 AM' timestamp='1270885131' post='2371364']
It's rule 20-4


[b]20-4. When Ball Dropped or Placed Is in Play[/b]
If the player's [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

A [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#SubstitutedBall"][i]substituted ball[/i][/url] becomes the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] when it has been dropped or placed.





Lucky for him the crowd was paying attention.
[/quote]

I still think ShortsTuff had it right to begin with. Els had the right to play a new ball from where he was standing with a stroke and distance penaly. If he had dropped it before the crowd alerted him, that new ball would be in play, and he would have been sitting six, with no option to play the ball he skulled back to the front of the green.

[jjj912]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='15 April 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1271362600' post='2381773']
[quote name='ShortsTuff' date='10 April 2010 - 03:38 AM' timestamp='1270885131' post='2371364']
It's rule 20-4


[b]20-4. When Ball Dropped or Placed Is in Play[/b]
If the player's [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

A [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#SubstitutedBall"][i]substituted ball[/i][/url] becomes the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i]ball in play[/i][/url] when it has been dropped or placed.





Lucky for him the crowd was paying attention.
[/quote]

[...] Els had the right to play a new ball from where he was standing with a stroke and distance penaly.[/quote]

I agree with this vis-a-vis 27-1a.

[quote]If he had dropped it before the crowd alerted him, that new ball would be in play, and he would have been sitting six, with no option to play the ball he skulled back to the front of the green.
[/quote]

Els wasn't proceeding under 27-1a or 28a (Ball Unplayable). He was attempting to use Rule 26-1a (Water Hazard), which is not permissible because his ball is not in a water hazard. Thus, the dropping of the second ball was an illegal substitution and 15-2 is the applicable rule.