How did Hogan shifted out and stayed inline?

[chris_golf]

How did Hogan shifted out his left arm? And stayed inline...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like i am shifting in... Anyway, the only possibility I can guess is he shifts out like

the MORAD CP guys with a upper COG shift to the left at transition ...

 

What do you think?

 

Chris

[HoganAfficianado]

In the fourth sequence of pics, his shoulders are nearly square where yours are still closed. The fourth sequence isn't right because he is much further into the downwing than you are. Also, it looks like Hogan's hands work slightly more over the original hand path than yours do. Add to that a much stronger pivot

[iteachgolf]

Something like this?

[attachment=630307:Picture 7.png]

Pivot is quite different between you and Hogan. Not that mine is the same or close to Hogan's

[chris_golf]

Thank you iteach and HoganAfficianado, looks like between P4 and P5 I am missing something.... I will report my progress... What a ridle... Since I return to the shaftplane I think it can work only with a bowed left wrist. I don´t like to raise the handle to have a flat left wrist (to much closing and CF). <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Okll7fZBD-0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Okll7fZBD-0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> Thank you again Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1279751620' post='2591108']
In the fourth sequence of pics, his shoulders are nearly square where yours are still closed. The fourth sequence isn't right because he is much further into the downwing than you are. Also, it looks like Hogan's hands work slightly more over the original hand path than yours do. Add to that a much stronger pivot
[/quote]

Remember that to change speed of shoulder rotation doesn't change anything. You only get to that position earlier. If You want to be more open at impact or at that moment of swing, take care about Your hand action and club head. In other words... they must be delayed still much more.

[chris_golf]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1279862234' post='2594053']
[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1279751620' post='2591108']
In the fourth sequence of pics, his shoulders are nearly square where yours are still closed. The fourth sequence isn't right because he is much further into the downwing than you are. Also, it looks like Hogan's hands work slightly more over the original hand path than yours do. Add to that a much stronger pivot
[/quote]

Remember that to change speed of shoulder rotation doesn't change anything. You only get to that position earlier. If You want to be more open at impact or at that moment of swing, take care about Your hand action and club head. In other words... [b]they must be delayed still much more. [/b]



[/quote]

Hello teeace,

good point teeace, no the speed of shoulder rotation doesn´t change the shifting out...
This is what I think as well that delaying more my arms at transition will bring the arms more out. It looks also that Hogan flexes a tad at
transition his right elbow more (due to the huge amount of compression), and in my case the compression brings my elbow to the ripcage and
with this I lower the arms to early...

[attachment=630874:HoganPowerPackageSlotting.jpg]

It sounds so easy to delay the armswing in the downswing - especially to delay Accu#4, but my swing is pretty fast and has no
backswing and downswing at all....

Thank you teeace

Chris

[iteachgolf]

Speed of shoulders in relation to tilt will certainly change left arm location. Faster shoulders with same tilt would be more shifted. Not simply the speed of shoulders or how open they are but how those tie into your tilts. Kick second tilt in faster and turn these speed left arm will be more in. Delay tilt with same turn and more shift out. Not simply one component but how it relates to the others.

[iteachgolf]

Speed of shoulders in relation to tilt will certainly change left arm location. Faster shoulders with same tilt would be more shifted. Not simply the speed of shoulders or how open they are but how those tie into your tilts. Kick second tilt in faster and turn these speed left arm will be more in. Delay tilt with same turn and more shift out. Not simply one component but how it relates to the others.

[chris_golf]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1279904069' post='2594708']
Speed of shoulders in relation to tilt will certainly change left arm location. Faster shoulders with same tilt would be more shifted. Not simply the speed of shoulders or how open they are but how those tie into your tilts. Kick second tilt in faster and turn these speed left arm will be more in. Delay tilt with same turn and more shift out. Not simply one component but how it relates to the others.
[/quote]

Hello Dan,

if I understand you correctly in my case I create way to early the second tilt...
This sounds logic, because I create my 2nd. tilt in my backswing and with this the left arm will be more in.

[b]RED first tilt BLUE second tilt[/b]

[attachment=630896:Tilt1.jpg][attachment=630897:Tilt2.jpg]
[attachment=630899:Tilt1and2.jpg]

Huh, it is more complicated than I thought...

Thank you again

Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1279906970' post='2594814']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1279904069' post='2594708']
Speed of shoulders in relation to tilt will certainly change left arm location. Faster shoulders with same tilt would be more shifted. Not simply the speed of shoulders or how open they are but how those tie into your tilts. Kick second tilt in faster and turn these speed left arm will be more in. Delay tilt with same turn and more shift out. Not simply one component but how it relates to the others.
[/quote]

Hello Dan,

if I understand you correctly in my case I create way to early the second tilt...
This sounds logic, because I create my 2nd. tilt in my backswing and with this the left arm will be more in.

[b]RED first tilt BLUE second tilt[/b]

[attachment=630896:Tilt1.jpg][attachment=630897:Tilt2.jpg]
[attachment=630899:Tilt1and2.jpg]

Huh, it is more complicated than I thought...

Thank you again

Chris
[/quote]

Chris. As seen on those photos Your hands are quite in center of Your body. Ih the hands arrive there, there is simply no way to be open at impact. Just no way with human body. I try to explain it a bit.

First of all we have to watch this thing top down (bird eye view) If You put a stick from Your chest 90 deg of shoulder line, You have to follow where the stick points. For me thats a center of body. What we usually miss when watching videos on face on, how much shoulders are open because in 2D picture they seem to be fairly square. If we watch down the line, we can't see position of the hands according that stick. So the key to open position is to delay hands and club head according that stick. That is also clear explanation for bended elbow and wrist, because both of them are delaying club head and hands.

So how to get there? Keep in mind that we are still watching it top down and what have to happen in transition? The stick starts to rotate with the body and how we get club head delayed? We have to drop it as much as possible behind Our back because when its moving that way, it all the time gets further in angles from that stick. From DTL view we can see that movement "dropping the club head under the plane" and same have to happen for hands. Actually it's increasing the pressure between left arm and chest and also pronating left arm in transition. That move just gives enough time to get shoulders open at impact and much open when club and hands are released (as I figured in Hogan angle thread moment when the hands and navel are both in line abut to target)

Speed of rotation of shoulders can so got an influence for that delay, but not directly. There is small moves that just gives enough time to get it done, and Kelvin Miyahira has made great work to find those moves [url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2009-10-micro-moves-of-elite-golf-swings.html"]here[/url].

With those moves You also have time to get maximum speed of rotation of Your body before club releases. If You bring arms and club head earlier, You use Your shoulders and arms muscles to create speed and same time the moment of inertia slows Your body.

Complicated story and about impossible to really put in words without possibility to show those moves, but I hope this gives at least an idea of my philosophy.

[chris_golf]

Can´t find a decent angle to see Hogan´s tilts - these is what I found...

[attachment=630925:HoganTilt1.jpg][attachment=630926:HoganTilt2.jpg]
[attachment=630927:HoganTiltTransition.jpg]

Looks like Morad CP Pattern: starting with little tilt - at transition no tilt to shift the left arm out -
and late in the downswing second tilt - maybe I have to copy some darkside stuff...

Chris

[chris_golf]

[color="#008000"][/quote] With those moves You also have time to get maximum speed of rotation of Your body before club releases. If You bring arms and club head earlier, You use Your shoulders and arms muscles to create speed and same time the moment of inertia slows Your body. [/quote] [/color]Hello teeace, I think I knew what you mean, my impression is I am reaching maximum speed of rotation! Would be nice to rotate even faster...This is the same video but in normal speed: <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fMyp15bhS18&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fMyp15bhS18&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> That is my ridle... [b] my dream is to have open shoulders at impact!!!! [/b] And that is why I am interested how Hogan shifted the left arm out... Sure from an more upright swingplane without laying off etc. it would be easier...but not my cup of tee...

Thank you for your reply Chris

[TeeAce]

quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1279965041' post='2595985']
[color="#008000"][/quote] With those moves You also have time to get maximum speed of rotation of Your body before club releases. If You bring arms and club head earlier, You use Your shoulders and arms muscles to create speed and same time the moment of inertia slows Your body. [/quote] [/color]Hello teeace, I think I knew what you mean, my impression is I am reaching maximum speed of rotation! Would be nice to rotate even faster...

That is my ridle... [b]my dream is to have open shoulders at impact!!!! [/b]And that is why I am interested how Hogan shifted the left arm out... Sure from an more upright swingplane without laying off etc. it would be easier...but not my cup of tee...

Thank you for your reply Chris
[/quote]

I can't say anything about speed with that video. The only truth can be seen by measurements. It looks good move.

First of all: forget the plane. it's an illusion or at least combination of many movements. Nothing should be done on plane, but rather moves to opposite directions that make the plane exist.

For me outer line of hands is quite clear. More You get shoulders open, more the hands are trying to come out. People who do OTT has never learned to drop hands inside or even drag them behind their back. To be clear, they shouldn't go there, but thats the direction of the work in good swings. We all do it, even that we don't feel that we are doing that.

But instead of plane there is 2 paths as we can see in enclosed graph. The lines are showing the distance measured from target line for hands and club head in 3D modeling system. Lower the line is, closer to the target line the object is.

So the arms triangle rotates open and gets the club laid off so it gets delayed of the rotation. With that move You can rotate shoulders open, which brings hands closer to the target line and still gets club head getting further from that line. It can easily be seen in the middle of downswing there when the lines are going to the opposite directions.

Hope this helps to understand more.[attachment=631256:jannepath.tiff]

[moehogan]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1279750748' post='2591085']
[b]How did Hogan shifted out his left arm? And stayed inline...[/b]

[attachment=630093:ShiftingOut1.jpg]
[attachment=630095:ShiftingOut2.jpg]
[attachment=630096:ShiftingOut3.jpg]
[attachment=630097:ShiftingOut4.jpg]
[attachment=630098:ShiftingOut5.jpg]

Looks like i am shifting in... Anyway, the only possibility I can guess is he shifts out like
the MORAD CP guys with a upper COG shift to the left at transition ...

What do you think?

Chris
[/quote]

Chris,

Noticed in comparing you and Mr. Hogan in these series of pics that he is playing the ball approximately 25-30% farther away from his stance line than you. Certainly lots of other variables to consider here, but what would happen to your left arm position if you played from his ball position ?

Moe

[Diz]

[attachment=631403:hogan.jpg]

[chris_golf]

So more I look at Hogan - so more complicated it gets...

He is standing pretty close at setup, [b]BUT[/b] he creates in his backswing indeed 1-2 inches more room in
front of him (and with this move he lowers his body in the backswing...)

[attachment=631482:HoganP1.jpg][attachment=631483:HoganP3.jpg]

I will report how this will help to shift out...

Saludos

Chris

[chris_golf]

[b]Hello Teeace, I think we spoke about this move before in the "how to connect the right elbow thread"... I totally forgot about this move because I do it unconcious: PRONATING THE LEFT ARM AT THE DOWNSWING (That is what teeace means) <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MXkSMuW6JI0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MXkSMuW6JI0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> Hopefully in the end it will be a mixture of Hogan´s setup and backswing (creating space and groundforce), pivot and some other movements to complete the puzzle... Chris [/b]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1280157358' post='2599661']
[b]Hello Teeace, I think we spoke about this move before in the "how to connect the right elbow thread"... I totally forgot about this move because I do it unconcious: PRONATING THE LEFT ARM AT THE DOWNSWING (That is what teeace means) <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MXkSMuW6JI0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MXkSMuW6JI0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> Hopefully in the end it will be a mixture of Hogan´s setup and backswing (creating space and groundforce), pivot and some other movements to complete the puzzle... Chris [/b]
[/quote]

Yes, thts's the move for the club. Now just add there same direction move for hands, so try to get those to Your right pocket and keep them as much right side than You ever can. Try to get them stay on Your right pocket even at impact and stay on the right side of the body. That is the action and by reaction You get open shoulders, hands coming to center of the body little bit after impact and then fading left because rotation is taking them there.

Good luck!

[Diz]

will one u guys take a photo at the .06 mark(a couple feet of the ball) in this unreal video and post it below....
thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI_yEtX7iJ8&feature=related

[chris_golf]

Sure Diz,
[attachment=633452:MrHoganP1,4.jpg][attachment=633450:MrHoganP1,8.jpg][attachment=633451:MrHoganP2.jpg]

Hope you are looking for these P1 to P2...

Chris

[Diz]

didnt realize how soft the elbows moved to side of the body and wristwork..

thanks its good visual...

[magnum184]

[quote name='Diz' timestamp='1280333716' post='2604118']
didnt realize how soft the elbows moved to side of the body and wristwork..

thanks its good visual...
[/quote]


+1. And you're off and running.

[eightiron]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1279750748' post='2591085']
[b]How did Hogan shifted out his left arm? And stayed inline...[/b]

[attachment=630093:ShiftingOut1.jpg]
[attachment=630095:ShiftingOut2.jpg]
[attachment=630096:ShiftingOut3.jpg]
[attachment=630097:ShiftingOut4.jpg]
[attachment=630098:ShiftingOut5.jpg]

Looks like i am shifting in... Anyway, the only possibility I can guess is he shifts out like
the MORAD CP guys with a upper COG shift to the left at transition ...

What do you think?

Chris
[/quote]

I would say that you cannot compare your swing or positions to Hogan with the camera angles being different... The Hogan pics / film was filmed at head height which may appear that he did not reach TSP but he did , especially with mid iron swing put up.... i.e filming Hogan from the position your camera is would imop show his hands much higher than yours and not as flat with the arms... look at your right elbow / forearm position.. you are more like sergio in that arm position

[chris_golf]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1280531734' post='2609074']
I would say that you cannot compare your swing or positions to Hogan with the camera angles being different... The Hogan pics / film was filmed at head height which may appear that he did not reach TSP but he did , especially with mid iron swing put up.... i.e filming Hogan from the position your camera is would imop show his hands much higher than yours and not as flat with the arms... look at your right elbow / forearm position.. you are more like sergio in that arm position
[/quote]

I think you are above my comunication skills! Must be a gerneration problem...

But anyway, I think it depends to what year you refer and what club:

[attachment=634691:HoganOlder.jpg]

Looks to me between Elbow and TSP!

Why you cannot just say: Chris IMOP you need a steeper armswing and a tad higher handposition -then it will be easier to shift the left arm out.
Did I claim that my swing is like Mr. Hogans! I don´t think so. Mr. Hogan is IMOP the best blueprint for my swing.

thank you for your respond

Chris

[eightiron]

whats hogan there , 75 , not a good example , why not use mexico footage or other stuff to monitor what you want to do

[TeeAce]

Chris: What about if You simply try to keep pulling Your right elbow "in" much longer and harder. You are taller than Hogan so it might never look exactly same, but for me it seems in many videos and pictures, that You let it out and release too early. Try t to keep it in past impact and start that pulling already in transition. That turns the triangle more open and brings that way the leading arm to outer plane.