Why do greens break to the west?

[AndrewOK]

According to Harvey Penick and Ben Hogan

In the Ben Hogan section of "And Some of the Men In My Life" in Harvey Penick's Little Red Book (page 129 in my copy), Penick quotes Ben Hogan:

"All other things being equal, greens break to the west"

Penick then writes:

"He is right, of course. There are many reasons why, I later found out". Penick does not discuss it any further.

I have a M.S. in Geology and I have worked as a professional geologist for over 12 years. I can not think of any obvious geological or geographical reason that greens would break to the west. Maybe I missed that day in class.

Has anyone else heard this? If Harvey Penick and Ben Hogan say that greens break to the west, I believe them.

Anyone have any ideas why this could be true?

[forgedforever]

Somewhere, way way back in the cobwebs of the mind, I recall reading something about grass on certain greens following the sun as it grows during the day. The sun, as we know, sets in somewhere in the western sky. Thus as the grass blades "reached" for the western-bound sun as the day got longer, it would have a slight affect on the break of the ball.

 

Of course, this doesn't help much if your first putt of the day is a 5-footer for par at 0800.

[jabrch]

It really depends on where you are...In AZ, puts break to the mountains. In Florida - the grain is most important. In Chicago - they break towards the nearest water... The West? It depends on where you are...

[iteachgolf]

Greens break because hills and gravity, some grass can come into play, and its simple as that. Any of the tricks only work just because the hills on that course tend to go towards the direction of the mountain, water, whatever.

[AndrewOK]

Greens break due to gravity. Knowledge of local geomorphology/topography can obviously be used to help read putts (some greens break toward the ocean, towards/away from the mountains, etc.). Grain of the grass could affect the [i]amount[/i] of break, but it should not affect the [i]direction[/i] of break. Locally, greens can and do sometimes break in similar directions. However, I can't come up with a reason for greens worldwide to have an average break direction to the west.

Maybe this is just a simple confidence trick? In other words, if Hogan was unsure about a "straight" looking putt, maybe he just quit thinking about it and committed to the "west-center" of the cup.

I don't plan to start carrying a compass with me when I play or anything. Just one of those curious things I read.

[Will Par]

Back when Hogan and Penick were playing, greens were slower with much more grain, especially on Bermuda greens which were prevalent in the South. Bermuda grasses do tend to grow in the direction of the setting sun, and the ball will move in the direction that the grass is growing-- in this case to the West, all other things being equal. Advances in agronomy have lessened the amount of grain with the hybrid strains of Bermuda used on today's greens. But if you putt on Bermuda greens in the South, the effect is still evident and you have to factor in the effect when reading greens. But this is not an absolute and the grain can run in directions other than West.

I'm don't know what kind of grass you have there in OK. If it is bent grass, grain is not much of a factor and there is no other reason that I know of that makes putts break West.

[Guest]

[quote name='AndrewOK' timestamp='1281880471' post='2639427']
In the Ben Hogan section of "And Some of the Men In My Life" in Harvey Penick's [i]Little Red Book [/i](page 129 in my copy), Penick quotes Ben Hogan:

"All other things being equal, greens break to the west"

Penick then writes:

"He is right, of course. There are many reasons why, I later found out". Penick does not discuss it any further.

I have a M.S. in Geology and I have worked as a professional geologist for over 12 years. I can not think of any obvious geological or geographical reason that greens would break to the west. Maybe I missed that day in class.

Has anyone else heard this? If Harvey Penick and Ben Hogan say that greens break to the west, I believe them.

Anyone have any ideas why this could be true?
[/quote]

I'm not a geologist, but I would think that since the sun sets to the west, the grass (or grain) grows toward the setting sun. Of course, there are other physical factors to consider as well (like slope and type of grass, time of day, etc.), but after evaluating all the data before a putt, the ball rolls much easier with rather than against the grain or blades of grass. This confirms Hogan's quote of "All other things being equal, greens break to the west." Thus, the old veterans did now a thing or two that we modern day golfers can learn from. I hope this helps!

[AndrewOK]

[quote name='Will Par' timestamp='1281887352' post='2639554']
Back when Hogan and Penick were playing, greens were slower with much more grain, especially on Bermuda greens which were prevalent in the South. Bermuda grasses do tend to grow in the direction of the setting sun, and the ball will move in the direction that the grass is growing-- in this case to the West, all other things being equal. Advances in agronomy have lessened the amount of grain with the hybrid strains of Bermuda used on today's greens. But if you putt on Bermuda greens in the South, the effect is still evident and you have to factor in the effect when reading greens. But this is not an absolute and the grain can run in directions other than West.

I'm don't know what kind of grass you have there in OK. If it is bent grass, grain is not much of a factor and there is no other reason that I know of that makes putts break West.
[/quote]


Most of the courses I play here in Oklahoma City have bent grass greens. So far, the most popular hypothesis has to do with the grain of the grass as it relates to the angle of the sun. I understand that grass will grow towards the sun, and that time of day/sun direction affects the grain of the grass. However, like I wrote earlier, the grain of the grass can affect the [i]amount[/i] of the break, but it will not affect the [i]direction[/i] of the break. In other words, the grain of the grass can change throughout the day, but gravity and the slope of the green will be constant. In order to change the [i]direction[/i] of the break, the grain would have to be so significant that it actually changes the slope of the putting surface. I guess that's technically possible.

Again, I want to stress that I don't actually spend time thinking about this while I am playing. Geology nerds like me get into stuff like this.

Thanks for the responses!

[forgedforever]

Ok, interesting stuff. Maybe we need to take a closer look at the meaning of "all other things being equal."

 

I think that most of us would agree that on, even a mild slope, the direction of the growing grass would not affect the primary direction a putt would break. The ball would break with the primary slope.

 

But what about on a flat surface? Is it possible that Hogan was referring to a straight putt? Was he possibly looking for that very slight edge on what otherwise appeared to be a straight putt?

 

I realize this is pure conjecture

 

Then we have Penick's statement about later finding out "many reasons why" with no apparent elaboration. One has to wonder what that was all about.

[GoTime]

grass follows the sun, just like corn, flowers, trees etc

[Will Par]

It's obvious that some of you have little or no experience putting on Bermuda greens. On a 10-foot flat putt (no slope) on a grainy Bermuda green, the grain can move a ball completely out of the hole if putted straight. On a putt with a very slight or a subtle break, the ball can move in the opposite direction of the slope if the grain is running in the other direction. In other words, when the slope is slight, the influence of the grain can be greater than the influence of the slope. If you have always played on bent greens, this may sound impossible, but this is exactly why Hogan and Penick wrote those comments. If you want to putt well on Bermuda greens, you have to consider the influence of the grain.

I'm not debating this issue, I'm just explaining the effects of grain on a Bermuda green to those who have no experience with it.

[AndrewOK]

[quote name='Will Par' timestamp='1281901629' post='2639847']
It's obvious that some of you have little or no experience putting on Bermuda greens. On a 10-foot flat putt (no slope) on a grainy Bermuda green, the grain can move a ball completely out of the hole if putted straight. On a putt with a very slight or a subtle break, the ball can move in the opposite direction of the slope if the grain is running in the other direction. In other words, when the slope is slight, the influence of the grain can be greater than the influence of the slope. If you have always played on bent greens, this may sound impossible, but this is exactly why Hogan and Penick wrote those comments. If you want to putt well on Bermuda greens, you have to consider the influence of the grain.

I'm not debating this issue, I'm just explaining the effects of grain on a Bermuda green to those who have no experience with it.
[/quote]

You're absolutely right. I have little (more like "no") experience with Bermuda greens. I can definitely understand the grain influencing the break on "flat" putts. I've seen putts that I swore broke uphill. Next time I see one of those, I'll definitely take a hard look at the grain. Thanks.