Did Pavin kill the distance debate?

[Boba]

pavin - 20, bubba -1

Did Corey Pavin just put a fork in the distance debate? I'm sure You all have thought of it already & I'm sure you will hear more of this in the near future but I hope the USGA is taking a close look at the tournament this week. IMO Pavin Just put a stop to the unified ball talk, Distance recall talk & created the term "pavinproofing". :man_in_love: .


Even if the putter won this fight with a submission hold, hey steel has a high strength to weight ratio.

[sevenfourate]

Im a huge Pavin fan - his shotmaking is legendary,and im really pleased for him,and his never die attitude and the hard work he's undoubtably put in through the years.

 

Im not sure his win is a great argument against a ball "roll-back" though....."One great day doesn't make a summer" - the same as one win by a "short-hitter" doesnt compensate by multiple wins by bombers of the golf ball.

 

As brilliant as it is to see,it changes nothing as i see it.

[sergizmo]

This just proves that SHORTER courses help level the field a bit, not longer ones. Being long is still an advantage on a shorter course (assuming it's straight), just not as much of one. It ensures that "bomb and gouge" isn't the default strategy for all long hitters at every regular (non-major) tour event.

 

If the PGA tour wants to see events won with shotmaking, course management, and great shortgame/putting skill, they should play on shorter courses. Could Pavin have won on a 7,300+ course? No way.

 

A part of the problem is that casual viewers want to see players bomb it all the time and scramble. So it has become a ratings issue (read; a money issue).

 

Leave the equipment alone, play on shorter & tighter courses more often, and water the fairways.

[sergizmo]

Holmes and Watson, the famous literary detective couple now on the Tour,

 

Good one! Pretty soon there will be a Moriarty on tour as well. ;)

 

I never noticed that before. :man_in_love:

[Marc]

I am thrilled for Corey. His caddy, Eric Schwarz is a longtime friend of mine dating back to the 80's when he first caddied for Frank Conner.

 

I was with Eric when he won his first tournament as a caddy working for Mike Sullivan when Mike won the Houston Open in 1989 and I was with Eric when Corey won his last tournament at Colonial in 1996.. It has been a long road for the two of them and a good one.

 

I will never forget the day that Eric called me to tell me he had landed Corey Pavin as a boss. Corey had been the leading money winnner the previous year. They have really been a great pair..

 

Eric is a great caddy as evidence to Corey's low 9 hole score of 26. You don't shoot 26 without getting some good numbers and Eric is one of the best caddys out there.

 

I am thrilled for both of them. NOW, if I can just get through on his cell phone to tell him.. It was a little busy last night when I tried to call.

[nikemike]

Just goes to show you hitting the ball long and getting it into the cup are two different things.

[DemolitionMan]

Just goes to show you hitting the ball long and getting it into the cup are two different things.

 

Exactly. I don't think the distance debate was ever about a bomber with a lousy short game.

 

Nice win for Pavin. That's got to be worth a ton of money even beyond the 1st place check and quite an ego boost. But his next win will probably be on the Champions tour.

[BEND OF THE RIVER GC]

Everyone seems to be forgetting how WELL Pavin was putting. This is key, that and the fact that he scrambles with the BEST of them!

PS: Did anyone take notice of the "punch' utility wood that went about 220 with and abbreviated follow through? Amazing. Props to CP!

[kgk]

PS: Did anyone take notice of the "punch' utility wood that went about 220 with and abbreviated follow through? Amazing. Props to CP!

 

Agreed, I did see that and it was an incredible shot.

[gjones77]

Pavin did an amazing job, and as for the distance debate, let's take a look.

 

Open Championship: Tigers sans driver, won

 

US Open: Geoff Ogilvy, not the longest on tour by far, won

 

It isn't about distance when the course is setup for accurate golfers, it's setup to be won by whom ever is hitting the ball well that week, and putting is always the most important stat in the end.

 

Don't believe it, look at Tiger during the US Open, his putting was way off and he missed the cut, he makes a few more putts and he's in contention.

 

There really shouldn't be a debate, it's the golf course that matters, wide open fairways with short rough rewards the guys hitting it over 300 in the air, but in the rough (bomb and gouge)

 

Tighten the fairways at the 300+ area, grow some rough and now you have a venue that plays fair to both bombers and short knockers.

 

The PGA doesn't need to lengthen the course to make them challenging, they just need to increase the risk/reward of the inaccurate long bomb.

[jportz]

I'm not a long hitter by any means but let me play devil's advocate for a second. Why are we talking about penalizing the long hitters? Power is just as much a part of playing golf as is putting. We don't talk about penalizing the best putters in the game by making them move their balls back a few feet on the greens or allowing the bad putters to move closer so they have a better chance of making it ?????

 

That's like saying "John Elway is too good of a quarterback so we'll make him throw with a heavier ball to even things up for everyone".

 

or

 

"Make Michael Jordan wear ankle weights when he plays because he jumps too high"

 

These are natural abilities that these atheletes possess and it should be no different in golf. Yeah, maybe it sucks for the short hitters but that's life in sports. No different than the reason I don't play professional basketball....I love the sport but you don't find too many 5'8" white guys in the NBA for a reason. Should the NBA "level the field" so guys like me have a chance in the NBA????

 

It's really ridiculous if you think of it like that. I play against guys who bomb it past me all the time...I'm not looking for somebody to help even up the field for me....that's their advantage so I know that I have to be better than them in other parts of the game and heck...if they can hit it 340 off the tee and also have a killer short game then they deserve to beat me.

 

Their strength is power so I have to be smart and accurate to beat them. That's just part of playing sports.

 

Just my opinion....curious to hear the other side.....(all in good fun of course)

[Ty_Webb]

jportz

 

I'm with you all the way on that one. I'm not sure I follow why short and straight should be favoured over long and wide. Who's to say one way is the right way to play and the other isn't. Why should you make fairways tighter out past 300 yards? They already play narrower, just as a consequence of how far the ball is being hit.

[wwhitehead]

Did Corey Pavin just put a fork in the distance debate? I'm sure You all have thought of it already & I'm sure you will hear more of this in the near future but I hope the USGA is taking a close look at the tournament this week. IMO Pavin Just put a stop to the unified ball talk, Distance recall talk & created the term "pavinproofing". :man_in_love: .

 

Even if the putter won this fight with a submission hold, hey steel has a high strength to weight ratio.

 

Remember that Pavin shot 26 on his first nine of the week (I think) and holed a shot on Sunday for eagle. Those 10 holes won him the tournament....the other 62 happened not to get in the way.

 

From now on, it will take something equally special for a short knocker to win, and maybe even to contend.

 

And we can't forget all the names that weren't in the field (and that Corey P. didn't have to beat).

 

Still, give the brother his due. He won, plain and simple.

[BEND OF THE RIVER GC]

Corey Pavin's stats are here:

 

Corey's current PGA Tour Stats

[gjones77]

No one is trying to limit their natural ability to hit it long, but using your same debate...

 

We should make the basketball hoop bigger, why do we have to make it harder on guys like Shaq who can't throw free throws

 

Or better yet, make the net bigger in Hockey, everyone loves a slapshot from the other end, why should we limit a player's ability to hit it hard.

 

Golf isn't just a game of distance, it's also one of accuracy, the problem most have with the distance debate isn't with guys hitting it long into the fairway, it's the guys that hit it wide into the rough and have an easier approach shot compared to the guys who hits it straight down the middle and has to use more club.

 

Even Tiger has said when he unloads on a drive he has no idea where it's going.

 

That's not golf

 

The argument you made isn't a solid one, you're saying we shouldn't limit guys, and I'm saying we shouldn't make it easier for them just because they hit it long.

 

Hell, I can carry a golf ball 320+ yards in the air when I unload on it, but I don't because I have no clue where the hell that thing is going to land, but I can carry it over 300 yards controlled, guess what I do more often?

 

Your basically saying we should reward some one just for being long and inaccurate, and who cares if it's to the detriment of the guys who are going for fairways and greens.

[dorfblee]

Don't the "bombers" that win consistently year to year have really good short games? Bubba hits it a country mile, but his approach shots and putting leave something to be desired.

 

Tiger at the Open didn't bomb it by any means, but he still won with great approach shots (a few lucky bounces) and solid putting.

 

Pavin hit every GIR in the final round- short knocker or not that's impressive to me.

 

imho.

[Ty_Webb]

No one is trying to limit their natural ability to hit it long, but using your same debate...

 

We should make the basketball hoop bigger, why do we have to make it harder on guys like Shaq who can't throw free throws

 

Or better yet, make the net bigger in Hockey, everyone loves a slapshot from the other end, why should we limit a player's ability to hit it hard.

 

Golf isn't just a game of distance, it's also one of accuracy, the problem most have with the distance debate isn't with guys hitting it long into the fairway, it's the guys that hit it wide into the rough and have an easier approach shot compared to the guys who hits it straight down the middle and has to use more club.

 

Even Tiger has said when he unloads on a drive he has no idea where it's going.

 

That's not golf

 

The argument you made isn't a solid one, you're saying we shouldn't limit guys, and I'm saying we shouldn't make it easier for them just because they hit it long.

 

Hell, I can carry a golf ball 320+ yards in the air when I unload on it, but I don't because I have no clue where the hell that thing is going to land, but I can carry it over 300 yards controlled, guess what I do more often?

 

Your basically saying we should reward some one just for being long and inaccurate, and who cares if it's to the detriment of the guys who are going for fairways and greens.

 

But people are talking about changing it to make it more difficult for the long hitters. I'm not suggesting that things should be made easier for the long hitters. Just that I don't understand why people think that they should be restricted. There are still advantages to hitting it straight, but why should it be better to hit it 250 in the fairway than 350 in the rough?

 

You're basically saying that we should reward someone just for being accurate and short, and who cares if it's to the detriment of the guys who can hit it 60 yards longer. Why is this different from what you said?

[gjones77]

No one is trying to limit their natural ability to hit it long, but using your same debate...

 

We should make the basketball hoop bigger, why do we have to make it harder on guys like Shaq who can't throw free throws

 

Or better yet, make the net bigger in Hockey, everyone loves a slapshot from the other end, why should we limit a player's ability to hit it hard.

 

Golf isn't just a game of distance, it's also one of accuracy, the problem most have with the distance debate isn't with guys hitting it long into the fairway, it's the guys that hit it wide into the rough and have an easier approach shot compared to the guys who hits it straight down the middle and has to use more club.

 

Even Tiger has said when he unloads on a drive he has no idea where it's going.

 

That's not golf

 

The argument you made isn't a solid one, you're saying we shouldn't limit guys, and I'm saying we shouldn't make it easier for them just because they hit it long.

 

Hell, I can carry a golf ball 320+ yards in the air when I unload on it, but I don't because I have no clue where the hell that thing is going to land, but I can carry it over 300 yards controlled, guess what I do more often?

 

Your basically saying we should reward some one just for being long and inaccurate, and who cares if it's to the detriment of the guys who are going for fairways and greens.

 

But people are talking about changing it to make it more difficult for the long hitters. I'm not suggesting that things should be made easier for the long hitters. Just that I don't understand why people think that they should be restricted. There are still advantages to hitting it straight, but why should it be better to hit it 250 in the fairway than 350 in the rough?

 

You're basically saying that we should reward someone just for being accurate and short, and who cares if it's to the detriment of the guys who can hit it 60 yards longer. Why is this different from what you said?

 

 

It's really easy. the short guys are hitting the fairway and not the rough.

 

Rough is just that, rough, it shouldn't be short and not be a hazard, so are we penalizing the long hitters, if they're inaccurate, yes we are, as they should be for hitting the rough.

 

That's my whole issue, if you want to bomb it fine, just be able to control it, golf was never meant to be bomb and gouge

 

Now why should we penalize the short hitters by making it almost impossible to reach the green in 2 accurately by making 500 yard par 4's?

 

We should lengthen the course just to control a few guys, to hell with everyone else?

 

The final argument from me is this, if they want to hit it long fine, but growing rough and narrowing fairways at the 300+ yard point isn't penalizing the long hitters, they're doing that themselves by hitting it into the woods.

 

And by the way, I'm a long hitter, I can carry a ball on average 311yards in the air.

[Ty_Webb]

But why only narrow the fairways at 300+? If you think they're too wide anyway, why not narrow them all the way along the hole? If you're hitting the ball 300+ it's already more difficult to hit the fairway anyway (simple trigonometry I believe). Narrowing them deliberately at only 300+ is deliberately only penalising the longer hitters. Why should they be penalised more than the shorter ones? Why should that ability to hit it long not reward the player who can do that?

 

Why not make a basketball hoop 8 feet off the ground so that short people can dunk it?

[dukesweb]

If you grew the rough everywhere wouldn't that also penalize the short-hitter who misses the fairway? You seem to be suggesting that the short-hitters never get in trouble, only the long bombers. Pavin was missing quite a few fairways all week, even in the first round, however, he was putting lights out. Great win for Pavin, but I will agree with others, there were alot of the top players who were NOT in the field at all who he didn't have to contend against.

[gjones77]

If you grew the rough everywhere wouldn't that also penalize the short-hitter who misses the fairway? You seem to be suggesting that the short-hitters never get in trouble, only the long bombers. Pavin was missing quite a few fairways all week, even in the first round, however, he was putting lights out. Great win for Pavin, but I will agree with others, there were alot of the top players who were NOT in the field at all who he didn't have to contend against.

 

And if they hit it in the rough they deserve to be penalized also, short or long, I'm not discriminating.

 

Golf is a game that was always meant to require accuracy, if you're not accurate you shouldn't be rewarded for your screw ups.

 

And why narrow the fairways at 300+ yards?

 

Because by doing that you'll make guys think before they pull out the driver on the tee, golf courses are designed with wider areas at short distances because anyone can hit there, it's a bail out zone where you can layup and then take your second shot if you don't feel you can keep it in the short grass.

 

The game was never meant to be easy, and we shouldn't reward long but inaccurate players, and we shouldn't reward short and inaccurate, but we should reward great ball striking and course management, Tiger put that on display in Hoylake.

 

A guy hitting his second shot from underneath trees in the rough shouldn't have an easier shot than the guy in the fairway pure and simple.

[Ty_Webb]

"bail out zone"? These guys are supposed to be the best in the world. If they need a bail out zone, they shouldn't be there, so there's no point in narrowing the fairways specifically to hinder the longer players. If that's what you want, why not have them tee it up in the fairway?

[jportz]

Bubba Watson is the longest hitter on tour and he hasn't won diddley-squat so I don't know what kind of advantage you think he has....Tiger Woods hits it a long ways but if you were to list the strenghts of his game and rank them his length wouldn't even make the top 3....I think mental toughness, short game imagination, and putting are the true strenghts of his game.

 

So my point is who gets to say what the "optimum" distance for tee shots is? Who says that we should narrow the fairways at 300 yards??? Why not narrow them at 260 or 220 or maybe 340???

 

If I hit my driver dead straight every time but it only goes 250 yards then should I expect them to change all of the golf courses so they have wide fairways up to about 260 and then narrow them way in and grow the rough up so that it disadvantages anyone I play who can hit it farther than me !!!!

 

Probaby sounds ridiculous but that's what you're implying. Why is 300 yards the magic number?

 

If I play against someone who can outdrive me by 50 yards then good for them....they must be stronger, quicker, etc...than me and that's what sports is all about right. The stronger / faster, more atheletic players have the advantage.

 

Isn't golf a sport? Then the more atheletic players should have the advantage....not to say an underdog can't win once in a while (Corey Pavin) but the true atheletes will always have a deserved advantage.

[BEND OF THE RIVER GC]

No matter what, you need the ALL AROUND game to survive on tour. I like the Winn grips commercial where JD says, "I can hit a 400 yard drive." Then Butch says, " So, I can make a 4 footer!"

[GehenHerzog]

Did Corey Pavin just put a fork in the distance debate? I'm sure You all have thought of it already & I'm sure you will hear more of this in the near future but I hope the USGA is taking a close look at the tournament this week. IMO Pavin Just put a stop to the unified ball talk, Distance recall talk & created the term "pavinproofing". :drinks: .

 

Even if the putter won this fight with a submission hold, hey steel has a high strength to weight ratio.

 

Remember that Pavin shot 26 on his first nine of the week (I think) and holed a shot on Sunday for eagle. Those 10 holes won him the tournament....the other 62 happened not to get in the way.

 

From now on, it will take something equally special for a short knocker to win, and maybe even to contend.

 

And we can't forget all the names that weren't in the field (and that Corey P. didn't have to beat).

 

Still, give the brother his due. He won, plain and simple.

 

 

Sluman is in contention right now, and he is a short hitter. Scott Verplank is a short hitter as well.

[ScottWS33]

I agree with the point that BEND OF THE RIVER GC makes about players requiring an all round game. Is long driving an advantage? Well yeah, but ultimately it won't win you golf tournaments. That comes from mental strength and a stellar short game. I have nothing agianst crushing the ball but all we hear about form commentators etc is "how far these guys hit the ball these days". So? Once you have hit you tee shot there is a lot of work to be done from there to make birdies and pars. I think guys like Watson, Holmes, Daly do have an advantage of shorter hitters but that advantage will never be significant enought to win tournaments in itself. They guys who are finishing at the top of the leaderboard are still those who are putting well that week.