CP Release?

[gabh]

Schlee said[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393118989' post='8724926']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393118411' post='8724878']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393117772' post='8724802']
Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did
[/quote]

So you agree instead with John Schlee (left shoulder externally rotating)?


[/quote]

Don't know what schlee wrote , but that's correct
[/quote]

Schlee said that once the hands reaches just a bit before the ball, the left elbow starts to point at the left hip.

Btw, the pic you posted is a draw swing, right? For draws, I think Hogan got his left wrist flat on top or at least flat earlier coming down. Even with internally rotated left shoulder until impact, that would result to an exit like that pic you posted, I think.

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393119163' post='8724946']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393118584' post='8724896']
Plus the "flip" post impact. If he both flips post impact and externally rotated his left shoulder thru impact, the club will exit too low.
[/quote]

Nonsense
[/quote]

Which one, the flip?

[eightiron]

P7 to P9 , but it doesn't matter , there is no trying to do any such thing as internal left shoulder rotation on the downswing , impact or beyond by hogan , it's nonsense

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393119370' post='8724962']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393119163' post='8724946']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393118584' post='8724896']
Plus the "flip" post impact. If he both flips post impact and externally rotated his left shoulder thru impact, the club will exit too low.
[/quote]

Nonsense
[/quote]

Which one, the flip?
[/quote]

Oh boy , the club exiting too low

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393119531' post='8724972']
P7 to P9 , but it doesn't matter , there is no trying to do any such thing as internal left shoulder rotation on the downswing , impact or beyond by hogan , it's nonsense
[/quote]

You're probably right coz I can't do it. But it's clear in EVERY Hogan face on that his left shoulder is internally rotated AT IMPACT (edit). It's after that that we are debating.

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393119590' post='8724986']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393119370' post='8724962']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393119163' post='8724946']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393118584' post='8724896']
Plus the "flip" post impact. If he both flips post impact and externally rotated his left shoulder thru impact, the club will exit too low.
[/quote]

Nonsense
[/quote]

Which one, the flip?
[/quote]

Oh boy , the club exiting too low
[/quote]

Well, if the left wrist is flipped after impact and left shoulder externally rotated already at IMPACT, I thought the club would exit too low, not to mention the face would be facing left all the time.

[eightiron]

No you are looking at a moment in time , just because you see a position doesn't mean it is what is occurring , you are disregarding several factors

1 / hogan fully released
2/ true extension from left side rotating level fast and left and rolling out 3 accum
3 / right side tilt being executed correctly for the strike
4/ his left side tilt into the ball in transition / refer to number 2

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393120475' post='8725078']
No you are looking at a moment in time , just because you see a position doesn't mean it is what is occurring , you are disregarding several factors

1 / hogan fully released
2/ true extension from left side rotating level fast and left and rolling out 3 accum
3 / right side tilt being executed correctly for the strike
4/ his left side tilt into the ball in transition / refer to number 2
[/quote]

I've considered all of those. I think this is the kind of stuff that needs to be shown than explained in words.

[eightiron]

Great here is a bone for you , why is your shaft exiting steeper even though you rotate in forward flexion ? Since you considered the above you should realize you are incorrect

[gabh]

But to try, all those factors makes the throw out harder or faster with left side extension and right side bend and full release will get the throw out and accum #3 coming much faster and club exit higher. With these, how would yo unsure the face wouldn't face left early?

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393120938' post='8725136']
Great here is a bone for you , why is your shaft exiting steeper even though you rotate in forward flexion ? Since you considered the above you should realize you are incorrect
[/quote]

I'm not doing enough of the factors you mentioned, but I know it believe it or not.

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121083' post='8725156']
But to try, all those factors makes the throw out harder or faster with left side extension and right side bend and full release will get the throw out and accum #3 coming much faster and club exit higher. With these, how would yo unsure the face wouldn't face left early?
[/quote]

Nonsense

[gabh]

But eight, assuming I do all the factors you mentioned, except that the left shoulder is actively being internally rotated until impact but allowed to externally rotate after impact, and 3 right hands is being used fully to aid release, what would happen differently compared to Hogan?

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393121384' post='8725200']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121083' post='8725156']
But to try, all those factors makes the throw out harder or faster with left side extension and right side bend and full release will get the throw out and accum #3 coming much faster and club exit higher. With these, how would yo unsure the face wouldn't face left early?
[/quote]

Nonsense
[/quote]

Why?

[eightiron]

You would slow the release down and shaft would exit higher , like someone using a manufactured vertical hinge , good for short knockers

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121601' post='8725222']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393121384' post='8725200']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121083' post='8725156']
But to try, all those factors makes the throw out harder or faster with left side extension and right side bend and full release will get the throw out and accum #3 coming much faster and club exit higher. With these, how would yo unsure the face wouldn't face left early?
[/quote]

Nonsense
[/quote]

Why?
[/quote]

All of it

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121480' post='8725208']
But eight, assuming I do all the factors you mentioned, except that the left shoulder is actively being internally rotated until impact but allowed to externally rotate after impact, and 3 right hands is being used fully to aid release, what would happen differently compared to Hogan?
[/quote]


If the left shoulder is being actively internally rotated until impact , we are talking Hogan , right? Why is his left arm so far off his chest coming down?

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393121682' post='8725230']
You would slow the release down and shaft would exit higher , like someone using a manufactured vertical hinge , good for short knockers
[/quote]

If you're rotating (pivot) and really fully releasing the 3 right hands with an inert left wrist, how would it slow down release? An internally rotated left elbow would allow release of accum #3 from P4 to P7, but at P7 it provides a built in protection from the face facing left. So left wrist is rolling fast from P4/5 to P7, from P7 onwards the left wrist flips and goes into a vertical hinge motion like you said, but from then on, the left elbow is allowed to bend in and left shoulder goes into ext rot.

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393122013' post='8725264']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121480' post='8725208']
But eight, assuming I do all the factors you mentioned, except that the left shoulder is actively being internally rotated until impact but allowed to externally rotate after impact, and 3 right hands is being used fully to aid release, what would happen differently compared to Hogan?
[/quote]


If the left shoulder is being actively internally rotated until impact , we are talking Hogan , right? Why is his left arm so far off his chest coming down?
[/quote]

I think those are draw swings. From verified fade swings, I see his left arm not that far off.

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393122103' post='8725272']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393121682' post='8725230']
You would slow the release down and shaft would exit higher , like someone using a manufactured vertical hinge , good for short knockers
[/quote]

Be patient with me here, just want to remove all doubts if any....if you're rotating (pivot) and really fully releasing the 3 right hands with an inert left wrist, how would it slow down release? An internally rotated left elbow would allow release of accum #3 from P4 to P7, but at P7 it provides a built in protection from the face facing left. So left wrist is rolling fast from P4/5 to P7, from P7 onwards the left wrist flips and goes I to a vertical hinge motion like you said, but from then in the left elbow isa,lowed to bend in and left shoulder goes into ext rot.
[/quote]

You contradict yourself on 2 things , 1st you claim the pivot is rotating but you claim the left shoulder is internally rotating 2nd you claim you are rolling out 3 accum with an internally rotated left elbow . It's obvious that's a disruption ! You are talking nonsense about the face issue , given where Hogan had it at top / transition . Face being retarded or stability as you state is from right forearm being on plane with the shaft and correct side tilt

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393122248' post='8725284']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393122013' post='8725264']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121480' post='8725208']
But eight, assuming I do all the factors you mentioned, except that the left shoulder is actively being internally rotated until impact but allowed to externally rotate after impact, and 3 right hands is being used fully to aid release, what would happen differently compared to Hogan?
[/quote]


If the left shoulder is being actively internally rotated until impact , we are talking Hogan , right? Why is his left arm so far off his chest coming down?
[/quote]

I think those are draw swings. From verified fade swings, I see his left arm not that far off.
[/quote]

For an elbow planar they are off , and you got it backwards

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393123211' post='8725384']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393122248' post='8725284']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393122013' post='8725264']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393121480' post='8725208']
But eight, assuming I do all the factors you mentioned, except that the left shoulder is actively being internally rotated until impact but allowed to externally rotate after impact, and 3 right hands is being used fully to aid release, what would happen differently compared to Hogan?
[/quote]


If the left shoulder is being actively internally rotated until impact , we are talking Hogan , right? Why is his left arm so far off his chest coming down?
[/quote]

I think those are draw swings. From verified fade swings, I see his left arm not that far off.
[/quote]

For an elbow planar they are off , and you got it backwards
[/quote]

Hmmm, yeah backwards, for draws left arm should be more in. But my Hogan pics doesn't show left arm off the chest for a fade. Will look it up and post.

[gabh]

But eight, don't you think Hogan's left arm more off the chest we can see only on driver swings or longer clubs due to hands farther from the pelvis hence left arm more off the chest?

[eightiron]

You are changing goalposts to fit your big square peg in to a small round hole . Go back and read it again . For the last time any active internal left shoulder on the downswing does not fit his swing and even more so when he shifts out more. You contradict yourself again on the draw / fade

[eightiron]

More

[eightiron]

Those last two are Mexico fade and draw swing according to analysis of finishing positions .

[gabh]

I'm not just disagreeing here for the sake of disagreeing but I sincerely believe his left arm is not that far off the chest. It's just that those are DTL pics and Hogan is super thin on the chest and stomach area.

These pics show me fully attached upper left arms:

[attachment=2081920:image.jpg]
[attachment=2081922:image.jpg]

How could be the left arm be more off the chest than not when his right elbow is that bent and very near his right hip?

[gabh]

Maybe he just let the left arm go down and blast off the chest in transition while keeping left elbow internally rotated, then fires up the pivot from P6, hence the left arm reattaches? But I don't see that to be inconsistent with internally rotated left elbow, but definitely not externally rotated. In fact I think it's the internally rotated left shoulder/elbow together with full 3 right hands release that causes the flip. After impact let left elbow fold and the force will get us to that flat shaft finish.

[eightiron]

I don't see the point of your pictures , what have they got to do with the topic discussed , you are changing goalposts again because it's clear you can't put a picture supporting active internal rotation for the downswing . In fact your whole page of posting is a huge contradiction and makes no sense logically or bio mechanics . If you think the reattachment is some contrived result of magical internal rotation or attaching a pressure point actively , then I'm not buying . It's junk

[gabh]

It's to show the left upper arm isn't that detached, eight. Not changing goalposts at all.

And I don't think it's an active internal rotation in DS, more like internally rotated in BS and then kept like that in DS. But definitely no active external rotation of left shoulder or elbow. Even Schlee said you actively rotate the elbow only when hands reach the ball.

Very respectfully, I don't think keeping it internally rotated from P4 to P7 isn't that far off. For someone who releases the club without right hand, you gotta ext rot the left shoulder, I agree with that sincerely, though I think it would take a very strong left arm to do that with a big PA3 like Hogan.

But I don't think it's a NEED for a right hand releaser. Maybe this is where our disagreement results from.