CP Release?

[jak_bot]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1299148424' post='3021948']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1299147307' post='3021940']
i think its the same theory, just some instructors have hijacked the term. whats the graph, how was it measured ?
[/quote]

The graph shows shoulders rotation speed according vertical axis as degrees per second. Measurement is made by 4DSwing device.

For me hole CP/CF is quite wear, because I think there is not that kind of split for two. I rather talk about releasing ch by slowing hands or releasing it with whole body. The question is if there is any release when using whole body. As the scientists say, there is no real force as an centrifugal force. There is only linear forces and centripetal forces and if I understand it right centripetal force and thing that can be called as centrifugal force are always equal. So the linear forces are changed to rotation by centripetal force and same amount of force is pulling the object in than what it feels is pulling out.
[/quote]

You are correct about CP and CF. If one can put aside the debate whether CF is a real or fake force; you will always get CP=CF. Who ever came up with the idea to use CP and CF to describe parts of the golf swing should go take a freshman course in physics, because you can't have one with out the other.

One might argue that it's just semantics, that's fine if that was the case, but it can really become confusing when the correct use of CP/CF has relevant meaning in the golf swing.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1299166163' post='3022319']
Then there is two hands connected to club, not only one as Cochran & Stubs saw the situation. For me the left hand mainly transfers the centripetal force to the club and right hand and arm are actually resisting it. That might be the hardest thing to understand and figure out in golf swing and even quite impossible to explain without showing.
[/quote]
is that like tgms swinging horizontal hinging ?

how are you measuring the speeds, hand marking location points on all frames or a few keyframes of 2/3 angles, and getting a computer to crunch the numbers, or something else ?

can you measure stuff in isolation, like one shoulder relative to a point close on the chest, graph that against this point relative to the ball. sort of map a single rotatory cuff/scapula in space.

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1299166163' post='3022319']
And that happens about every day and sometimes I hope never taken the part of this project. Everything was so clear before
[/quote]

yeah sounds like a fun machine, have you seen if any other sports are interested, like baseball ?

[TeeAce]

[

how are you measuring the speeds, hand marking location points on all frames or a few keyframes of 2/3 angles, and getting a computer to crunch the numbers, or something else ?

 

can you measure stuff in isolation, like one shoulder relative to a point close on the chest, graph that against this point relative to the ball. sort of map a single rotatory cuff/scapula in space.

 

 

 

 

We have information about all joints of player and club head 170 times per second (every frame) in 3D world. So after that the speeds and relative speeds according other parts is only quite simple calculation. And there is no hand work at all. After one shot computers calculates everything in 2,5 minutes and saves it to the central server where it can be taken 24/7 via internet.

 

But You better not open everything together :D :D

 

 

Sorry about OT, let's get back to it. If someone is interested to hear more about 4Dswing PM me or even make a new thread, but this has been great thread for swing mechanics so let's save it like that.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

lol, i think i found my avatar, lol, ...(no hand key framing is very good, that should have a ton of applications, esp. as the 2.5 mins shrinks.)

[tembolo1284]

Let's keep this discussion going boys and girls. Come ooooooon.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1300135475' post='3054916']
Let's keep this discussion going boys and girls. Come ooooooon.
[/quote]

They all try to figure out those graphs

I try to figure out something to show.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1300136454' post='3054971']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1300135475' post='3054916']
Let's keep this discussion going boys and girls. Come ooooooon.
[/quote]

They all try to figure out those graphs

I try to figure out something to show.
[/quote]


speaking of which...would like to learn more about your system!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1300291019' post='3060661']


speaking of which...would like to learn more about your system!
[/quote]

Ok. Basic is simple (???) We use eight high speed cameras in sync to create 3D model of body and club movements during whole swing. So we don't need any markers or sensors because we use machine vision algorithms and some special own created software to find out all joints of the player and club. So we know where each joint of the "system" 170 times per second (and really well guess between those) and so also how it's moving. The rest is only simple part of maths to create.

In UI side we run everything via internet, so every shot made with this device is saved on Our central server and can be accessed 24/7 by player, coach or friends with rights to see those. There You can see those videos sync in 170 fps and also in sync with graphs. So we learn to know how they have moved and what it looks like. I suggest You start with some of the collections like "paths" and "body orientations" to get familiar with system and open them with videos (don't forged to tap the box to open certain video) Then just work with the main slider and arrows to go frame by frame.

For all who are interested to use that we have made one demo set to see: [url="http://www.4dswing.com"]www.4dswing.com[/url] and go to "My 4DSwing"
user RI1/fora password: fora. Under friends shots You can find players and by clicking them find some shots and start to open graphs and videos. You can get more information from [url="https://www.4dswing.com/sites/default/files/user%20manual%20in%20english.pdf"]User manual[/url]

Have fun

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1300350462' post='3063105']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1300291019' post='3060661']
speaking of which...would like to learn more about your system!
[/quote]

Ok. Basic is simple (???) We use eight high speed cameras in sync to create 3D model of body and club movements during whole swing. So we don't need any markers or sensors because we use machine vision algorithms and some special own created software to find out all joints of the player and club. So we know where each joint of the "system" 170 times per second (and really well guess between those) and so also how it's moving. The rest is only simple part of maths to create.

In UI side we run everything via internet, so every shot made with this device is saved on Our central server and can be accessed 24/7 by player, coach or friends with rights to see those. There You can see those videos sync in 170 fps and also in sync with graphs. So we learn to know how they have moved and what it looks like. I suggest You start with some of the collections like "paths" and "body orientations" to get familiar with system and open them with videos (don't forged to tap the box to open certain video) Then just work with the main slider and arrows to go frame by frame.

For all who are interested to use that we have made one demo set to see: [url="http://www.4dswing.com"]www.4dswing.com[/url] and go to "My 4DSwing"
user RI1/fora password: fora. Under friends shots You can find players and by clicking them find some shots and start to open graphs and videos. You can get more information from [url="https://www.4dswing.com/sites/default/files/user%20manual%20in%20english.pdf"]User manual[/url]

Have fun
[/quote]

That has to be one of the sexiest things I've ever heard of.

Remember that we only speak english here...and i know finnish is 100000000 times more complex than english. What is basic and simple for you sure as heck won't be simple for me!

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1299016774' post='3016755']
I'm surprised Dariusz that you don't have "Ben Hogan, a hard case from Texas." It contains probably more good Hogan swing footage than any other DVD. It was originally made as a documentary about Hogan's life but only offered on VHS. In recent years, DVD's have come up on Ebay. If I could only have one Hogan DVD, this would be the one. Regarding this swing footage, I've seen it before, just not sure where. Might be on "Hard Case" but I haven't looked at it in about 3 years. [b]There's actually quite a bit of privately filmed Hogan footage that I've seen the last few years that has not made it to youtube. Some even in slow motion.[/b]
[/quote]

Does anyone know where the slow motion and other private footage that Hoganfan speaks of can be acquired? I'd pay a pretty penny for it.

[tembolo1284]

How much we talking about?

[tylerdurden]

lol depends on the content buddy, email me

[ej002]

slice's desk I would assume

[tembolo1284]

contact slicefixer man he has all of it.

[ALIF]

I thought I'd just pop in to take a look. This thread reminds me of a soap opera. I haven't watched it for months, turned the TV on and it's right where I left off. Lol. In all sincerity, my game has improved a ton since I've been working with Monte and stopped worrying about all the minutia.

[tembolo1284]

Beating the Monte drum. Always a good thing.

[fats]

I haven't posted in a long time guys. I will throw you a couple of bones.

#1 leave Hogan's big laid off drop at the top of the BS out

#2 Low left is incorrect and a foolish venture with today's equipment

#3 Max speed square face to the back of the ball at impact to past your left shin. The ball is GONE and no low left or falling on your a** will change the outcome of where the ball goes. Just finish the swing comfortably so you can see where it's going. Simplify

[KevCarter]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1392961818' post='8713928']
I haven't posted in a long time guys. I will throw you a couple of bones.

#1 leave Hogan's big laid off drop at the top of the BS out

#2 Low left is incorrect and a foolish venture with today's equipment

#3 Max speed square face to the back of the ball at impact to past your left shin. The ball is GONE and no low left or falling on your a** will change the outcome of where the ball goes. Just finish the swing comfortably so you can see where it's going. Simplify
[/quote]

FATS!!!

Great to see your voice Man. I hope you are doing GREAT!!!

Kevin

[mikpga]

Holy Crap!

Fats, then Kevin Carter?

Is this THROWBACK FRIDAY?

After the arc bottoms out it must go left, for a RH...

[gabh]

Yes[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1392992477' post='8715096']
Holy Crap!

Fats, then Kevin Carter?

Is this THROWBACK FRIDAY?

After the arc bottoms out it must go left, for a RH...
[/quote]

Yes , but I think the low left release refers more to the intent to swinging that way thru impact. That would be lots of pulls misses nowadays.

[fats]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393034751' post='8719472']
Yes[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1392992477' post='8715096']
Holy Crap!

Fats, then Kevin Carter?

Is this THROWBACK FRIDAY?

After the arc bottoms out it must go left, for a RH...
[/quote]

Yes , but I think the low left release refers more to the intent to swinging that way thru impact. That would be lots of pulls misses nowadays.
[/quote]

My feeling is it's a misunderstood term. If you rotate the swing will go left (I call it going square to the turn) I see many imitate Hogan and the arms/hands/club butt go awkwardly low left which fires the right shoulder outward and around kind of like Tiger does on all of his bad shots. It betrays balance.
Recently I studied "mid Torso rotation" (which eventually turns the hips and shoulders) From my findings I found the left side of the rib cage turning hard actually speeds up the arms = faster swing speed.

Balance is obtained in the DS with the downward pressure to the inside of the right heel and an area 6" past the right heel into the ground. This eliminates the "Slicefixer Term" Goat Humping. LOL

I'm also into a small/tiny "Tumble" (with force) to get the shaft out in front of me more easily from inside my right thigh. I call that "The Smash"

I see the weight shift a ground weight shift mush like if you took a full bucket of wather and splashed it all forward from your right foot to the left foot. That creates balance and from balance you achieve control and speed = more consistant sweet spot strikes.

[mikpga]

Impressive FATS...

Such lingo...

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1393042224' post='8720256']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393034751' post='8719472']
Yes[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1392992477' post='8715096']
Holy Crap!

Fats, then Kevin Carter?

Is this THROWBACK FRIDAY?

After the arc bottoms out it must go left, for a RH...
[/quote]

Yes , but I think the low left release refers more to the intent to swinging that way thru impact. That would be lots of pulls misses nowadays.
[/quote]

My feeling is it's a misunderstood term. If you rotate the swing will go left (I call it going square to the turn) I see many imitate Hogan and the arms/hands/club butt go awkwardly low left which fires the right shoulder outward and around kind of like Tiger does on all of his bad shots. It betrays balance.
Recently I studied "mid Torso rotation" (which eventually turns the hips and shoulders) From my findings I found the left side of the rib cage turning hard actually speeds up the arms = faster swing speed.

Balance is obtained in the DS with the downward pressure to the inside of the right heel and an area 6" past the right heel into the ground. This eliminates the "Slicefixer Term" Goat Humping. LOL

I'm also into a small/tiny "Tumble" (with force) to get the shaft out in front of me more easily from inside my right thigh. I call that "The Smash"

I see the weight shift a ground weight shift mush like if you took a full bucket of wather and splashed it all forward from your right foot to the left foot. That creates balance and from balance you achieve control and speed = more consistant sweet spot strikes.
[/quote]
Agreed Fats...Hogan kept LEFT shoulder internally rotated, and retracted left scapula at p7-9...this kept him supporting the shaft as opposed to the left elbow and left shoulder externally rotating and disrupting his rhythm (in TGM sense..)...imitators will throw the club left creating wipes and pulls, bend the plane line left, or roll (supinate) with a bent left wrist creating face pulls....

[Siteseer2]

[b]Schlee's term fwiw was called "Level Left" that he allegedly picked up from Hogan. [/b]

[gabh]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1393090068' post='8722430']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1393042224' post='8720256']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393034751' post='8719472']
Yes[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1392992477' post='8715096']
Holy Crap!

Fats, then Kevin Carter?

Is this THROWBACK FRIDAY?

After the arc bottoms out it must go left, for a RH...
[/quote]

Yes , but I think the low left release refers more to the intent to swinging that way thru impact. That would be lots of pulls misses nowadays.
[/quote]

My feeling is it's a misunderstood term. If you rotate the swing will go left (I call it going square to the turn) I see many imitate Hogan and the arms/hands/club butt go awkwardly low left which fires the right shoulder outward and around kind of like Tiger does on all of his bad shots. It betrays balance.
Recently I studied "mid Torso rotation" (which eventually turns the hips and shoulders) From my findings I found the left side of the rib cage turning hard actually speeds up the arms = faster swing speed.

Balance is obtained in the DS with the downward pressure to the inside of the right heel and an area 6" past the right heel into the ground. This eliminates the "Slicefixer Term" Goat Humping. LOL

I'm also into a small/tiny "Tumble" (with force) to get the shaft out in front of me more easily from inside my right thigh. I call that "The Smash"

I see the weight shift a ground weight shift mush like if you took a full bucket of wather and splashed it all forward from your right foot to the left foot. That creates balance and from balance you achieve control and speed = more consistant sweet spot strikes.
[/quote]
Agreed Fats...Hogan kept LEFT shoulder internally rotated, and retracted left scapula at p7-9...this kept him supporting the shaft as opposed to the left elbow and left shoulder externally rotating and disrupting his rhythm (in TGM sense..)...imitators will throw the club left creating wipes and pulls, bend the plane line left, or roll (supinate) with a bent left wrist creating face pulls....
[/quote]

Agree with this totally. But I don't know why, but I find it hard to keep the left shoulder internally rotated thru impact. Maybe my pivot isn't fast enough is my suspect.

[eightiron]

Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393117772' post='8724802']
Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did
[/quote]

So you agree instead with John Schlee (left shoulder externally rotating)?

Maybe not until P9, more like p7.5...but after that he allows his left elbow to be bent in. With the pivot and his 3 right hands (I believe he did this), his club would exit like in the above pic you posted.

[gabh]

Plus the "flip" post impact. If he both flips post impact and externally rotated his left shoulder thru impact, the club will exit too low.

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393118411' post='8724878']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393117772' post='8724802']
Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did
[/quote]

So you agree instead with John Schlee (left shoulder externally rotating)?


[/quote]

Don't know what schlee wrote , but that's correct

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393118584' post='8724896']
Plus the "flip" post impact. If he both flips post impact and externally rotated his left shoulder thru impact, the club will exit too low.
[/quote]

Nonsense