CP Release?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1298577303' post='3005965']
................. texas
[/quote]

a hard case from .....

lol, that sounds right.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

here you go d, i know you love photoshop, lol.

right side is '48, [b]hogans peak[/b], he's even wearing the 'contemporary' shoes.

[attachment=737111:doublestrip1.jpg]

[attachment=737112:doublestrip2.jpg]

[attachment=737113:doublestrip3.jpg]

[attachment=737114:doublestrip4.jpg]

obviously it's a slightly different shot from a slightly different angle, ..but its the same man.

[Dariusz J.]

OK, I already admitted I am stupid as regards this footage. I know that he's unbelievable close to pre-accident Hogan.
However, explain me, please - so many Hogan fans here and noone is able to say definitely where the footage is taken from ? Only guesses ? Noone have here "A hard case from Texas" to confirm it once & for all and best to put the original footage on YT ?

Cheers

[dap]

I doubt there is going to be 100% proof of anything from videos back in that era.

Everything points to Hogan.No gloves and identical swings.I have even seen other videos of Hogan wearing a similar hat.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

this is the swing that hogan says would beat 'hogan_53',

..and all the youtubers, in hogans own words are trying to 'swing like a cripple', lmao.

i bet sweet swingin' sam will make a big comeback when the youtubers are all done contorting and straining. they must be both having a giggle about it upstairs, lol.


love the release, thats how 'bantem ben' got his other nickname 'big hitting'.

[attachment=737140:doublestrip3.jpg]

ill confirm which official dvd its on when i get a chance, hardcase is a couple hours long AFAIK,

..anyone who hasnt seen it i'd highly recommend it, its a really great production.


slicefixers vid on slices release is very good also.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or4iDjQqTns[/media]

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1298990707' post='3015661']ill confirm which official dvd its on when i get a chance, hardcase is a couple hours long AFAIK, [/quote]

I'll await with anxiety your confirmation then.
BTW, really a couple hours long ?!? What's it about and what does it contain ?


[quote]
slicefixers vid on slices release is very good also.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or4iDjQqTns[/media]
[/quote]

This beautiful footage from Snead/Hogan film is to be found on the YT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg&feature=related

BTW, it shows EXACTLY from a very good angle what I described in my "pitch transforming into punch elbow" concept. His rear elbow joint never ever goes in front of his rear hip until coming into the impact zone. It moves fast (much faster than the body) in the deep pitch elbow phase at the beginning then it slows down matches its speed with the body. Rear humerus searches for support from the body, rear forearm supports the shaft.

Cheers

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1299016088' post='3016716']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1298990707' post='3015661']ill confirm which official dvd its on when i get a chance, hardcase is a couple hours long AFAIK, [/quote]

I'll await with anxiety your confirmation then.
BTW, really a couple hours long ?!? What's it about and what does it contain ?


[quote]
slicefixers vid on slices release is very good also.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or4iDjQqTns[/media]
[/quote]

This beautiful footage from Snead/Hogan film is to be found on the YT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg&feature=related

BTW, it shows EXACTLY from a very good angle what I described in my "pitch transforming into punch elbow" concept. His rear elbow joint never ever goes in front of his rear hip until coming into the impact zone. It moves fast (much faster than the body) in the deep pitch elbow phase at the beginning then it slows down matches its speed with the body. Rear humerus searches for support from the body, rear forearm supports the shaft.

Cheers
[/quote]

I'm surprised Dariusz that you don't have "Ben Hogan, a hard case from Texas." It contains probably more good Hogan swing footage than any other DVD. It was originally made as a documentary about Hogan's life but only offered on VHS. In recent years, DVD's have come up on Ebay. If I could only have one Hogan DVD, this would be the one. Regarding this swing footage, I've seen it before, just not sure where. Might be on "Hard Case" but I haven't looked at it in about 3 years. There's actually quite a bit of privately filmed Hogan footage that I've seen the last few years that has not made it to youtube. Some even in slow motion.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1299016774' post='3016755']I'm surprised Dariusz that you don't have "Ben Hogan, a hard case from Texas." It contains probably more good Hogan swing footage than any other DVD. It was originally made as a documentary about Hogan's life but only offered on VHS. In recent years, DVD's have come up on Ebay. If I could only have one Hogan DVD, this would be the one. Regarding this swing footage, I've seen it before, just not sure where. Might be on "Hard Case" but I haven't looked at it in about 3 years. There's actually quite a bit of privately filmed Hogan footage that I've seen the last few years that has not made it to youtube. Some even in slow motion.
[/quote]

Well, my possibilities are rather limited and I cannot just order whatever I want being in Poland. Besides, never heard that "Hard case from Texas" is such an excellent source for swings. Also thought that the majority of Hogan's swings can be met on YT these days and I think it does.
Are there any footages from the "Hard case..." on you tube (except this one in strange hat) ?

Cheers

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1299018713' post='3016837']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1299016774' post='3016755']I'm surprised Dariusz that you don't have "Ben Hogan, a hard case from Texas." It contains probably more good Hogan swing footage than any other DVD. It was originally made as a documentary about Hogan's life but only offered on VHS. In recent years, DVD's have come up on Ebay. If I could only have one Hogan DVD, this would be the one. Regarding this swing footage, I've seen it before, just not sure where. Might be on "Hard Case" but I haven't looked at it in about 3 years. There's actually quite a bit of privately filmed Hogan footage that I've seen the last few years that has not made it to youtube. Some even in slow motion.
[/quote]

Well, my possibilities are rather limited and I cannot just order whatever I want being in Poland. Besides, never heard that "Hard case from Texas" is such an excellent source for swings. Also thought that the majority of Hogan's swings can be met on YT these days and I think it does.
Are there any footages from the "Hard case..." on you tube (except this one in strange hat) ?

Cheers
[/quote]


Yes, quite a few are posted there. The '53 Carnoustie footage is one example that comes to mind. I think that you might be able to get the DVD on Ebay from a seller in the UK, I believe that's where I got mine. They show up occasionally.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1299019074' post='3016850']Yes, quite a few are posted there. The '53 Carnoustie footage is one example that comes to mind. I think that you might be able to get the DVD on Ebay from a seller in the UK, I believe that's where I got mine. They show up occasionally.
[/quote]

Interesting. I thought the '53 Carnoustie footage was just originally taken from cinema cronicles (I don't know the English name for it, sorry - meant short cronicle of important events that were used to be seen in cinemas before the main film, at least here in Poland):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhO_I7VXt0Q&feature=related

Cheers

[JOEGOLFWRX]

this is the intro to hardcase, it contains most of the swings on the disk afair.

documentary on his life (great story), ..swings (probably all on youtube), ...and maybe some interview extracts afair.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8evo0ZvHc[/media]

[fats]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1299016088' post='3016716']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1298990707' post='3015661']ill confirm which official dvd its on when i get a chance, hardcase is a couple hours long AFAIK, [/quote]

I'll await with anxiety your confirmation then.
BTW, really a couple hours long ?!? What's it about and what does it contain ?


[quote]
slicefixers vid on slices release is very good also.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or4iDjQqTns[/media]
[/quote]

This beautiful footage from Snead/Hogan film is to be found on the YT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg&feature=related

BTW, it shows EXACTLY from a very good angle what I described in my "pitch transforming into punch elbow" concept. His rear elbow joint never ever goes in front of his rear hip until coming into the impact zone. It moves fast (much faster than the body) in the deep pitch elbow phase at the beginning then it slows down matches its speed with the body. Rear humerus searches for support from the body, rear forearm supports the shaft.

Cheers
[/quote]

Everyone talks about elbows, wrists, hips, legs etc...I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about his right shoulder. I would have thought a Hogan forum would have pointed his use of it by now.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1299040951' post='3018088']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1299016088' post='3016716']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1298990707' post='3015661']ill confirm which official dvd its on when i get a chance, hardcase is a couple hours long AFAIK, [/quote]

I'll await with anxiety your confirmation then.
BTW, really a couple hours long ?!? What's it about and what does it contain ?


[quote]
slicefixers vid on slices release is very good also.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or4iDjQqTns[/media]
[/quote]

This beautiful footage from Snead/Hogan film is to be found on the YT:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=related[/url]

BTW, it shows EXACTLY from a very good angle what I described in my "pitch transforming into punch elbow" concept. His rear elbow joint never ever goes in front of his rear hip until coming into the impact zone. It moves fast (much faster than the body) in the deep pitch elbow phase at the beginning then it slows down matches its speed with the body. Rear humerus searches for support from the body, rear forearm supports the shaft.

Cheers
[/quote]

Everyone talks about elbows, wrists, hips, legs etc...I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about his right shoulder. I would have thought a Hogan forum would have pointed his use of it by now.
[/quote]

According to Slicefixer on this video, it keeps moving AROUND, doesn't slow down. Am I warm????

[tembolo1284]

it def ain't moving back and down like Tiger's LOL.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1299040951' post='3018088']
[
Everyone talks about elbows, wrists, hips, legs etc...I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about his right shoulder. I would have thought a Hogan forum would have pointed his use of it by now.
[/quote]

He's using it just opposite way than the guys who talk about kinematic chain tells us to do. He fires with that as hard as possible because he's in position to be able to do that. He said sometimes hit it hard with Your right hand, but actually he didn't. He hit hard with his right shoulder and whole right side. There is no other way that angles of right arm can be kept through the impact.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

he fires it, but where and when, and whats the visualization and presets for a given shot ?

i thought the kinemetic chain just says anything firing will slow something bellow, any prescriptions derived from it are theory opinion from the chain reality. the kinemetic chain itself doesn't tell us to do anything ?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1299095595' post='3019992']
he fires it, but where and when, and whats the visualization and presets for a given shot ?

i thought the kinemetic chain just says anything firing will slow something bellow, any prescriptions derived from it are theory opinion from the chain reality. the kinemetic chain itself doesn't tell us to do anything ?
[/quote]

It slows everything below down if we don't produce any power from the supported point. Or if the thing below hasn't slow down even before... Strong leg action through impact can reduce the MOI that tries to slow down the hips, or hips can be already in "limited position" and You can fire against them.

My point was that he didn't slow down his shoulders to transfer energy to the hands which transfers it to the club head. That's how the tell the chain works but Hogan really did something else.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

oh right, i think your working off a static point outside the body to calculate speed. so it slows things down unless x.

i was working off just the body relative to the body, then there is no unless, it just slows things down, and then that slowed down bit has its own powered velocity that's added to this slowing vector.

so as the head speeds up, the shoulder can still slow down even if its speeding up, lol. so i wouldn't say he's doing anything different or breaking the kinematic theory, he's just not dumping it.

[StewartBannatyne]

I can confirm that the footage in question (Mr. Hogan in the bucket hat) is actually, Mr. Hogan. The reason? Well, the guy that made the "Comparisons with Mr. Hogan" is a very close friend of mine. The footage came from still photos used in a documentary (quite probably "Hard Case"), that he borrowed directly from the Hogan Foundation. He is from the DFW Area, and along with being a very talented player (HoganFan is correct when he says that he learned from Geoff) also has a large interest in film and making films. It is unique footage, and most certainly, footage of Mr. Hogan.

I will see if I can get in contact with him and find out what film the footage comes from. I remember I have asked him this before, as this is not the first time the question has come up, and I believe he told me it was from a documentary or film that was on television.

Stew

[moehogan]

[

Everyone talks about elbows, wrists, hips, legs etc...I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about his right shoulder. I would have thought a Hogan forum would have pointed his use of it by now.

 

He's using it just opposite way than the guys who talk about kinematic chain tells us to do. He fires with that as hard as possible because he's in position to be able to do that. He said sometimes hit it hard with Your right hand, but actually he didn't. He hit hard with his right shoulder and whole right side. There is no other way that angles of right arm can be kept through the impact.

 

Check out the series of photos below. In the pic on the left (just before impact), Mr. H's shoulders appear to still be closed. In the middle pic, his clubhead has moved maybe only 24", but look how far he has rotated.

 

The whole right side has delivered the blow ... notice how the side seam of his shirt and the outside seam of his trousers match up on both pics. It all went around together ... like a gun going off!

 

MH

 

[BarronDDS]

Sorry I am late to the party, but what does CP and CF mean?? Dont roast me!!!!

[TeeAce]

oh right, i think your working off a static point outside the body to calculate speed. so it slows things down unless x.

 

i was working off just the body relative to the body, then there is no unless, it just slows things down, and then that slowed down bit has its own powered velocity that's added to this slowing vector.

 

so as the head speeds up, the shoulder can still slow down even if its speeding up, lol. so i wouldn't say he's doing anything different or breaking the kinematic theory, he's just not dumping it.

 

I think we are talking about different theory. You are right about that physical reaction and I'm talking about the swing theory that has came really popular during last years to get extra power for outer circle by slowing down the inner.

 

I think the graph of one of my students shows about same than what Hogan did

[JOEGOLFWRX]

i think its the same theory, just some instructors have hijacked the term. whats the graph, how was it measured ?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='BarronDDS' timestamp='1299115399' post='3021020']
Sorry I am late to the party, but what does CP and CF mean?? Dont roast me!!!!
[/quote]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/444988-foleys-swing-verdict-stil-out/page__view__findpost__p__3021467"]recent link[/url]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1299147307' post='3021940']
i think its the same theory, just some instructors have hijacked the term. whats the graph, how was it measured ?
[/quote]

The graph shows shoulders rotation speed according vertical axis as degrees per second. Measurement is made by 4DSwing device.

For me hole CP/CF is quite wear, because I think there is not that kind of split for two. I rather talk about releasing ch by slowing hands or releasing it with whole body. The question is if there is any release when using whole body. As the scientists say, there is no real force as an centrifugal force. There is only linear forces and centripetal forces and if I understand it right centripetal force and thing that can be called as centrifugal force are always equal. So the linear forces are changed to rotation by centripetal force and same amount of force is pulling the object in than what it feels is pulling out.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='StewartBannatyne' timestamp='1299109060' post='3020693']
I can confirm that the footage in question (Mr. Hogan in the bucket hat) is actually, Mr. Hogan. The reason? Well, the guy that made the "Comparisons with Mr. Hogan" is a very close friend of mine. The footage came from still photos used in a documentary (quite probably "Hard Case"), that he borrowed directly from the Hogan Foundation. He is from the DFW Area, and along with being a very talented player (HoganFan is correct when he says that he learned from Geoff) also has a large interest in film and making films. It is unique footage, and most certainly, footage of Mr. Hogan.

I will see if I can get in contact with him and find out what film the footage comes from. I remember I have asked him this before, as this is not the first time the question has come up, and I believe he told me it was from a documentary or film that was on television.

Stew
[/quote]

I would appreciate if you could confirm it all fully. Thanks in advance.


[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1299148424' post='3021948']For me hole CP/CF is quite wear, because I think there is not that kind of split for two. I rather talk about releasing ch by slowing hands or releasing it with whole body. The question is if there is any release when using whole body. As the scientists say, there is no real force as an centrifugal force. There is only linear forces and centripetal forces and if I understand it right centripetal force and thing that can be called as centrifugal force are always equal. So the linear forces are changed to rotation by centripetal force and same amount of force is pulling the object in than what it feels is pulling out.
[/quote]

Well said. Centrifugal force is a fictious one for a golfer. There is always a centripetal force or lack of it. One cannot control anything in reference to a fictious force.

Cheers

[TeeAce]

And whole thing is getting really interesting when we change the axis of rotation. Some people see it goes around the horizontal axis and some (like me) sees it going much more around of vertical axis. The truth is somewhere between and it depends also what happenings in swing we try to figure out.

 

It might be a surprise, but all players seems to pull their hands up before impact. Some of them also pulls them in (as we see it releasing left) Some players, as I see Hogan did, pulls them in just few inches after impact, but the muscular action could be started much more earlier. Both groups, those who can keep their hands going straight and those who pull them in can keep the club face going straight some inches after impact depended of their other body and arms action.

 

But there is also the group that can't. They can be called flippers or what ever, but the common thing for that group is slowing down the speed of the hands and releasing ch that way. In that case ch starts to close quickly and also rise. The rotation stops and pulling of the left side stops. Seen lot's of big hooks ant topped shots from that group.

 

There is more graphs with pictures about one player. Blue line is telling the height of the left wrist and re one is telling about distance from the target line. Can't get the exact numbers included for that capture, but in the first picture left wrist is 754mm from the ground an at impact it's 792mm from the ground.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

well this is the way i see it, it kinda gets back to useful non trivial modeling,

eg: linear forces are really useful for simplifying really complex situations, but there isnt a linear force per say, there are multiple simultaneous forces that are acting instantaneously and behaving like a single linear force from a certain plane of reference, so can be treated like one mathematically for that instant. the cf is to do with mathematical plane of reference afaik, and the pulling up sounds like it has been researched as parametric acceleration.

but none of the graphs can really say anything about the when and where of muscle firings, the best you can get is useful categories of differences for different useful categories, like 'handicaps' with tpi 'kentic chain'(tm) or the ones you mentioned above like 'flippers', new tools for correction.

id see the real kinetic chain as being way more than 3 'parts' and would be quite real and efficient in all optimized swings depending on frame of reference, id also say the axis of rotation varies in a swing. id say my 'model' is way more accurate than all common models, but its not very useful, rofl, except maybe its unlikely to discourage an athletic movement.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1299163002' post='3022204']
well this is the way i see it, it kinda gets back to useful non trivial modeling,

eg: linear forces are really useful for simplifying really complex situations, but there isnt a linear force per say, there are multiple simultaneous forces that are acting instantaneously and behaving like a single linear force from a certain plane of reference, so can be treated like one mathematically for that instant. the cf is to do with mathematical plane of reference afaik, and the pulling up sounds like it has been researched as parametric acceleration.

but none of the graphs can really say anything about the when and where of muscle firings, the best you can get is useful categories of differences for different useful categories, like 'handicaps' with tpi 'kentic chain'(tm) or the ones you mentioned above like 'flippers', new tools for correction.

id see the real kinetic chain as being way more than 3 'parts' and would be quite real and efficient in all optimized swings depending on frame of reference, id also say the axis of rotation varies in a swing. id say my 'model' is way more accurate than all common models, but its not very useful, rofl, except maybe its unlikely to discourage an athletic movement.
[/quote]

I see it so, that there is always a linear force and I'm even quite sure about that. What is useful to understand is that after that there is only centripetal forces that effects in golf swing and those directions and amounts are changing all the time. But if You loose those, club will continue straight. As long as club is not moving straight to some direction there is only centripetal forces that makes something else happen. Those can be right up according the club or horizontal way or anything between those two.

Then there is two hands connected to club, not only one as Cochran & Stubs saw the situation. For me the left hand mainly transfers the centripetal force to the club and right hand and arm are actually resisting it. That might be the hardest thing to understand and figure out in golf swing and even quite impossible to explain without showing.

I agree that this is far away from the useful tool for learning golf but sometimes it's good to understand also this part at least if we are teachers. Not to tell the student, but understand how and why we want them to do something.

Graphs are useful when You compare something or You make research to build understanding and to find out some happenings what cant be seen by eye. I have figured out today something really interesting about right elbow speed but need to do more homework before saying anything more. And that happens about every day and sometimes I hope never taken the part of this project. Everything was so clear before What is totally right they don't tell when muscular action has started or how much there is that, but they can tell players to do it earlier, later or some other way to find out when it's fine. Thats same when comparing two players or same players two different swings.

[tembolo1284]

This is awesome...keep it coming guys.

so can we say if cp is better for hitting a certain kind of shot? Better for an online/push fade, etc? Anything like that?

Or just totally depends on the player?

Seems to me a super duper CF swing like fred couples will never pull anything. So it seems the CF swing will be better for push (curve) shots.

What you think?