CP Release?

[gabh]

Wait, how could a detached left arm prove that the intent of Hogan is to externally rotate that left shoulder or elbow?

Doesn't his mere transition cause that slight left arm detaching and gravity get the left arm go down and detached? His right elbow is still bent and still near right hip and right wrist still bent fully, so that means accum 3 hasn't rolled out yet.

[eightiron]

So now you want to claim he just kept the shoulder internally rotated ! Yes you change goalposts every post . Let's go through your summary

1 now it's just internally rotated and maintained to impact ...... So how does his hand path shift out in transition by maintaining internal rotation and what effect does this have on his right elbow ?

2 you state now it's 3 right hands release when hogan clearly states the strongest part of his downswing is his left arm

3 you claim that even though hogan has a massive hole between his left arm pit and chest his lshoulder and elbow are maintaing / doing internal rotation throughout the downswing

4 you state now that folding the left elbow combined with the internal rotation and 3 right hands will magically make the shaft exit flatter ..... Geez

[Hoganstriker]

If Hogan is externally rotating how come its always internal at impact? No dog in it here. To me he's just rotating his body. He hates left so why would he externally rotate the left arm that would be more left right?

[eightiron]

Is it more internal at impact or at the top of his backswing hogan striker ? Did I say hogan actively internally or externally rotated it on the downswing

[Hoganstriker]

Good call.

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393130155' post='8726090']
So now you want to claim he just kept the shoulder internally rotated ! Yes you change goalposts every post . Let's go through your summary

1 now it's just internally rotated and maintained to impact ...... So how does his hand path shift out in transition by maintaining internal rotation and what effect does this have on his right elbow ?

2 you state now it's 3 right hands release when hogan clearly states the strongest part of his downswing is his left arm

3 you claim that even though hogan has a massive hole between his left arm pit and chest his lshoulder and elbow are maintaing / doing internal rotation throughout the downswing

4 you state now that folding the left elbow combined with the internal rotation and 3 right hands will magically make the shaft exit flatter ..... Geez
[/quote]

Relax eight. Can you explan how I change goalpost? Seems like very shallow matter to me, eight. Still talking about int rot of left shoulder.

Re 1. ---Yes, suggesting there might be no active internal rot of left shoulder. I'm actually conceding there might be no active int rot. Don't see how this fires you up.

Hands shift out because shoulders have turned, i.e., left shoulder went up a bit, right shoulder down a bit.

Re 2. ---Yep, 3 hands release from halfway down or later, but not saying exclusively, there's pivot too, and left arm, like the basketball pass. But IMO 3 right hands helped In throwing the clubhead out. Otherwise with his big accum 3 sweetspot would be too behind/open.

Re 3. ---I don't see how left arm detachment by a bit and internal rot of left shoulder are inconsistent. What I find inconsistent is left arm detachment, active ext rot, and right elbow still very near the torso or right hip and right wrist fully bent with pitch elbow (right elbow still leading the hands).

Can you explain more on this?

Re 4. ---Yes, because when you fold the left elbow immediately past impact, that allows the right shoulder to ext rot like Schlee said and like you say. You don't have to think ext rot, you just have to bend it and bec of club head throwout, cf and right arm extending the left forearm will pass the left elbow and rotate. Since the left wrist is soft and flipping, the left hand would be facing more to the sky, hence the flatter shaft exit.

Eight, why don't you explain the reasons why IYO what I'm saying is wrong rather than just say it's wrong? Because my only objective on this is to learn, not only the answers, but also the rationales behind it because I'm not a blind bat, which I'm sure you'll agree that's the way to learn. Plus we don't have the luxury of hitting balls or swinging like a player as you.

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393131788' post='8726238']
Is it more internal at impact or at the top of his backswing hogan striker ? Did I say hogan actively internally or externally rotated it on the downswing
[/quote]

Can you show P4 and P7 comparisons on this? Not challenging you, just not convinced yet.

For me, the amount of int rot is the same.

Ok, so, you're saying Hogan didn't actively int rot nor actively ext rot the left shoulder?

[gabh]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393132218' post='8726274']
Good call.
[/quote]

Why? I think you have a great point. Allowing (passively) the ext rot of left shoulder creates the possibility of back of left hand facing left of target. Keeping it int rot is IMO a 100% insurance that the back of left hand doesn't face left. This wouldn't slow down club head speed because Hogan's left wrist is soft/oily/inert and is allowed to unhinge much like in a flipping process/manner. You can use both pivot,left arm and right hand thru impact.

[Jobu]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393127209' post='8725826']
I'm not just disagreeing here for the sake of disagreeing but I sincerely believe his left arm is not that far off the chest. It's just that those are DTL pics and Hogan is super thin on the chest and stomach area.

These pics show me fully attached upper left arms:

[attachment=2081920:image.jpg]
[attachment=2081922:image.jpg]

How could be the left arm be more off the chest than not when his right elbow is that bent and very near his right hip?
[/quote]

Here's your answer: He's rotating around a tilted spine angle. The torso is moving under the left arm and the right shoulder is internally rotating. Left arm hangs like a string, but it allows a full release of the right hand. Without it the right hand would have to physically let go of the club to have any power.

[Hoganstriker]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393135890' post='8726462']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393132218' post='8726274']
Good call.
[/quote]

Why? I think you have a great point. Allowing (passively) the ext rot of left shoulder creates the possibility of back of left hand facing left of target. Keeping it int rot is IMO a 100% insurance that the back of left hand doesn't face left. This wouldn't slow down club head speed because Hogan's left wrist is soft/oily/inert and is allowed to unhinge much like in a flipping process/manner. You can use both pivot,left arm and right hand thru impact.
[/quote]

Well my guess is that Hogan did not concern himself with that facet of the swing in any way. Theoretically to say he ACTIVELY went ir very tough to say. To say ACTIVELY er would not make sense because it never looks like it in photos.
I agree though he used it all. The debate is a bit of the how.

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393135265' post='8726432']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393130155' post='8726090']
So now you want to claim he just kept the shoulder internally rotated ! Yes you change goalposts every post . Let's go through your summary

1 now it's just internally rotated and maintained to impact ...... So how does his hand path shift out in transition by maintaining internal rotation and what effect does this have on his right elbow ?

2 you state now it's 3 right hands release when hogan clearly states the strongest part of his downswing is his left arm

3 you claim that even though hogan has a massive hole between his left arm pit and chest his lshoulder and elbow are maintaing / doing internal rotation throughout the downswing

4 you state now that folding the left elbow combined with the internal rotation and 3 right hands will magically make the shaft exit flatter ..... Geez
[/quote]

Relax eight. Can you explan how I change goalpost? Seems like very shallow matter to me, eight. Still talking about int rot of left shoulder.

Re 1. ---Yes, suggesting there might be no active internal rot of left shoulder. I'm actually conceding there might be no active int rot. Don't see how this fires you up.

Hands shift out because shoulders have turned, i.e., left shoulder went up a bit, right shoulder down a bit.

No there is no active internal rotation of the left shoulder , it occurs in the backswing as an effect of rotating the left arm and external rotation of the right shoulder .

Hands shift out from oration and your descrition left shoulder up and right shoulder down is wrong and would lead to the hands being dropped particularly for hogan since he increases his left side tilt before

Re 2. ---Yep, 3 hands release from halfway down or later, but not saying exclusively, there's pivot too, and left arm, like the basketball pass. But IMO 3 right hands helped In throwing the clubhead out. Otherwise with his big accum 3 sweetspot would be too behind/open.

No right wrist flexion will not rotate the sweet spot to hit the ball , it increases loft , that's the job of rotation of pivot inc shoulders and roll of left arm

Re 3. ---I don't see how left arm detachment by a bit and internal rot of left shoulder are inconsistent. What I find inconsistent is left arm detachment, active ext rot, and right elbow still very near the torso or right hip and right wrist fully bent with pitch elbow (right elbow still leading the hands).


Can you explain more on this?

Internal rotation with the left arm rotation if maintained like you state will pinn the upper arm to the chest , it's obvious he doesn't do that . Regarding your inconsistency point on the right elbow , you are missing the important factor that the right elbow begins to stop and the right shoulder begins to reverse the external rotation .... Notice I said begins , nothing about trying

Re 4. ---Yes, because when you fold the left elbow immediately past impact, that allows the right shoulder to ext rot like Schlee said and like you say. You don't have to think ext rot, you just have to bend it and bec of club head throwout, cf and right arm extending the left forearm will pass the left elbow and rotate. Since the left wrist is soft and flipping, the left hand would be facing more to the sky, hence the flatter shaft exit.

Eight, why don't you explain the reasons why IYO what I'm saying is wrong rather than just say it's wrong? Because my only objective on this is to learn, not only the answers, but also the rationales behind it because I'm not a blind bat, which I'm sure you'll agree that's the way to learn. Plus we don't have the luxury of hitting balls or swinging like a player as you.
[/quote]

I put some answers under your points the last one I answered below

I never said anything about right shoulder externally rotating at or past impact , that's just ridiculous . The shaft exits there because of the roll of the left arm and pivot rotation, I don't believe in any attempt to maintain or re establish the left arm pressure point artificially . I would be looking at more at acceleration and deceleration profiles of arms and parts of pivot

[gabh]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393136631' post='8726496']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393135890' post='8726462']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393132218' post='8726274']
Good call.
[/quote]

Why? I think you have a great point. Allowing (passively) the ext rot of left shoulder creates the possibility of back of left hand facing left of target. Keeping it int rot is IMO a 100% insurance that the back of left hand doesn't face left. This wouldn't slow down club head speed because Hogan's left wrist is soft/oily/inert and is allowed to unhinge much like in a flipping process/manner. You can use both pivot,left arm and right hand thru impact.
[/quote]

Well my guess is that Hogan did not concern himself with that facet of the swing in any way. Theoretically to say he ACTIVELY went ir very tough to say. To say ACTIVELY er would not make sense because it never looks like it in photos.
I agree though he used it all. The debate is a bit of the how.
[/quote]

Well, I thought eightiron is saying Hogan's actively ext rot the left shoulder. Doesn't look like it is even passively.

[eightiron]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393138573' post='8726578']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393136631' post='8726496']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393135890' post='8726462']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393132218' post='8726274']
Good call.
[/quote]

Why? I think you have a great point. Allowing (passively) the ext rot of left shoulder creates the possibility of back of left hand facing left of target. Keeping it int rot is IMO a 100% insurance that the back of left hand doesn't face left. This wouldn't slow down club head speed because Hogan's left wrist is soft/oily/inert and is allowed to unhinge much like in a flipping process/manner. You can use both pivot,left arm and right hand thru impact.
[/quote]

Well my guess is that Hogan did not concern himself with that facet of the swing in any way. Theoretically to say he ACTIVELY went ir very tough to say. To say ACTIVELY er would not make sense because it never looks like it in photos.
I agree though he used it all. The debate is a bit of the how.
[/quote]

Well, I thought eightiron is saying Hogan's actively ext rot the left shoulder. Doesn't look like it is even passively.
[/quote]

Geez he would look retarded if it stayed in internal rotation to the finish with a pathetic follow through and more vertical pissy looking shaft

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393138573' post='8726576']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393135265' post='8726432']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393130155' post='8726090']
So now you want to claim he just kept the shoulder internally rotated ! Yes you change goalposts every post . Let's go through your summary

1 now it's just internally rotated and maintained to impact ...... So how does his hand path shift out in transition by maintaining internal rotation and what effect does this have on his right elbow ?

2 you state now it's 3 right hands release when hogan clearly states the strongest part of his downswing is his left arm

3 you claim that even though hogan has a massive hole between his left arm pit and chest his lshoulder and elbow are maintaing / doing internal rotation throughout the downswing

4 you state now that folding the left elbow combined with the internal rotation and 3 right hands will magically make the shaft exit flatter ..... Geez
[/quote]

Relax eight. Can you explan how I change goalpost? Seems like very shallow matter to me, eight. Still talking about int rot of left shoulder.

Re 1. ---Yes, suggesting there might be no active internal rot of left shoulder. I'm actually conceding there might be no active int rot. Don't see how this fires you up.

Hands shift out because shoulders have turned, i.e., left shoulder went up a bit, right shoulder down a bit.

No there is no active internal rotation of the left shoulder , it occurs in the backswing as an effect of rotating the left arm and external rotation of the right shoulder .

Hands shift out from oration and your descrition left shoulder up and right shoulder down is wrong and would lead to the hands being dropped particularly for hogan since he increases his left side tilt before

Re 2. ---Yep, 3 hands release from halfway down or later, but not saying exclusively, there's pivot too, and left arm, like the basketball pass. But IMO 3 right hands helped In throwing the clubhead out. Otherwise with his big accum 3 sweetspot would be too behind/open.

No right wrist flexion will not rotate the sweet spot to hit the ball , it increases loft , that's the job of rotation of pivot inc shoulders and roll of left arm

Re 3. ---I don't see how left arm detachment by a bit and internal rot of left shoulder are inconsistent. What I find inconsistent is left arm detachment, active ext rot, and right elbow still very near the torso or right hip and right wrist fully bent with pitch elbow (right elbow still leading the hands).


Can you explain more on this?

Internal rotation with the left arm rotation if maintained like you state will pinn the upper arm to the chest , it's obvious he doesn't do that . Regarding your inconsistency point on the right elbow , you are missing the important factor that the right elbow begins to stop and the right shoulder begins to reverse the external rotation .... Notice I said begins , nothing about trying

Re 4. ---Yes, because when you fold the left elbow immediately past impact, that allows the right shoulder to ext rot like Schlee said and like you say. You don't have to think ext rot, you just have to bend it and bec of club head throwout, cf and right arm extending the left forearm will pass the left elbow and rotate. Since the left wrist is soft and flipping, the left hand would be facing more to the sky, hence the flatter shaft exit.

Eight, why don't you explain the reasons why IYO what I'm saying is wrong rather than just say it's wrong? Because my only objective on this is to learn, not only the answers, but also the rationales behind it because I'm not a blind bat, which I'm sure you'll agree that's the way to learn. Plus we don't have the luxury of hitting balls or swinging like a player as you.
[/quote]

I put some answers under your points the last one I answered below

I never said anything about right shoulder externally rotating at or past impact , that's just ridiculous . The shaft exits there because of the roll of the left arm and pivot rotation, I don't believe in any attempt to maintain or re establish the left arm pressure point artificially . I would be looking at more at acceleration and deceleration profiles of arms and parts of pivot
[/quote]

"No there is no active internal rotation of the left shoulder , it occurs in the backswing as an effect of rotating the left arm and external rotation of the right shoulder ."

"Hands shift out from oration and your descrition left shoulder up and right shoulder down is wrong and would lead to the hands being dropped particularly for hogan since he increases his left side tilt before"


1st paragraph above is what I said after conceding there's no active int rot of left shoulder in DS.

2nd paragraph above, you means it's due to rotation? It's that what I said? It turned a bit? Left shoulder up and right down a BIT?, that's what I said. Hands wouldn't drop down despite left side tilt in BS because of effects if ext rot of right shoulder before.



"No right wrist flexion will not rotate the sweet spot to hit the ball , it increases loft , that's the job of rotation of pivot inc shoulders and roll of left arm"


It will only increase loft if there's no shaft lean, so depends on amount of right wrist bend left at impact actually. I'm not only taking about merely straightening the right hand, I'm also talking about squaring the palm or back of left hand. Controls or monitors the sweet spot actually. Hinge action of left wrist too difficult to monitor to monitor the sweet spot. Back of right hand or palm much easier.

Left arm rotating passively not enough IMO in order to Throwout the clubhead due to big accum 3 angle, especially of you're pivoting hard. Requires too much strength. And even if it does, how would you monitor the sweet spot and make sure it faces to where it should face (start line)? Soft left wrist is enough. Right hand release is better (in addition to left arm and pivot) because you can do the power sourcing and sweet spot monitoring at same time easily without sacrificing the other. All you have to do from your release point is get that r hand square to the startline.



"Internal rotation with the left arm rotation if maintained like you state will pinn the upper arm to the chest , it's obvious he doesn't do that . Regarding your inconsistency point on the right elbow , you are missing the important factor that the right elbow begins to stop and the right shoulder begins to reverse the external rotation .... Notice I said begins , nothing about trying"


Ok. I concede there's a bit of detachment in transition coming down due to pivot engaging. But I still don't see how the left shoulder would ext rot passively, regardless of right shoulder reversing the ext rot with right elbow still, since Hogan's sweet spot or left flying wedge is still perpendicular to his spine coming down. Hogan's right hand is more on top of left thumb weak left hand grip, so right shoulder reversing ext rot with right elbow still won't need ext rot of left arm.



"I never said anything about right shoulder externally rotating at or past impact , that's just ridiculous . The shaft exits there because of the roll of the left arm and pivot rotation, I don't believe in any attempt to maintain or re establish the left arm pressure point artificially . I would be looking at more at acceleration and deceleration profiles of arms and parts of pivot"


Yeah, basically what I said too. I've conceded there's no active int rot. In fact my original question in this thread is how to do it, bc I find it impossible to actively do.

Shaft exits left and flatter because of pivot and left arm roll, but the roll starts only right after impact when the left elbow is allowed to fold (active) plus the CF, straightening right arm, flipping left wrist and club tumbling. Left shoulder int rot is very clear on those face on pictures of Hogan, eight. In fact I have yet to see a face on impact of Hogan where his left shoulder is ext rot a bit already (left elbow pointing left).

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393138921' post='8726590']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393138573' post='8726578']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393136631' post='8726496']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393135890' post='8726462']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1393132218' post='8726274']
Good call.
[/quote]

Why? I think you have a great point. Allowing (passively) the ext rot of left shoulder creates the possibility of back of left hand facing left of target. Keeping it int rot is IMO a 100% insurance that the back of left hand doesn't face left. This wouldn't slow down club head speed because Hogan's left wrist is soft/oily/inert and is allowed to unhinge much like in a flipping process/manner. You can use both pivot,left arm and right hand thru impact.
[/quote]

Well my guess is that Hogan did not concern himself with that facet of the swing in any way. Theoretically to say he ACTIVELY went ir very tough to say. To say ACTIVELY er would not make sense because it never looks like it in photos.
I agree though he used it all. The debate is a bit of the how.
[/quote]

Well, I thought eightiron is saying Hogan's actively ext rot the left shoulder. Doesn't look like it is even passively.
[/quote]

Geez he would look retarded if it stayed in internal rotation to the finish with a pathetic follow through and more vertical pissy looking shaft
[/quote]

Well, why didn't you say so right at the start so I wouldn't have to give a lot of info?...haha

Int rot of left shoulder, whether actively or passively is only until impact because right at impact or immediately after, the left elbow is allowed to fold to allow the ext rot of left shoulder and other stuff.

[eightiron]

I'm going to leave you in your own mind of what you think you are saying and what I am saying , put simply I don't agree with you on a lot of things you stated. I will leave you with homer Kelleys greatest gift and that is the elbow plane requires an earlier release of the 3 accumulator and he came to that conclusion looking at hogan and hogan used them both better than anybody , only can be done with the right elbow gets on plane , hogan got it on the money coming down very early , the stuff you wrote is under plane elbow country . You should bury that stuff out in the desert next to seves lead better swing!

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393142793' post='8726666']
I'm going to leave you in your own mind of what you think you are saying and what I am saying , put simply I don't agree with you on a lot of things you stated. I will leave you with homer Kelleys greatest gift and that is the elbow plane requires an earlier release of the 3 accumulator and he came to that conclusion looking at hogan and hogan used them both better than anybody , only can be done with the right elbow gets on plane , hogan got it on the money coming down very early , the stuff you wrote is under plane elbow country . You should bury that stuff out in the desert next to seves lead better swing!
[/quote]

This is the exact reason why I sincerely believe that these things should be explained in person!

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393142793' post='8726666']
I'm going to leave you in your own mind of what you think you are saying and what I am saying , put simply I don't agree with you on a lot of things you stated. I will leave you with homer Kelleys greatest gift and that is the elbow plane requires an earlier release of the 3 accumulator and he came to that conclusion looking at hogan and hogan used them both better than anybody , only can be done with the right elbow gets on plane , hogan got it on the money coming down very early , the stuff you wrote is under plane elbow country . You should bury that stuff out in the desert next to seves lead better swing!
[/quote]

Eight, agree with everything you said, except that what I'm saying is under plane elbow country. I was taught to get the right elbow down 1st thing in transition. So I don't see how what I'm saying is under plane elbow as you said.

Can you clarify on this?

[fats]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393117772' post='8724802']
Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did
[/quote]

LOL What shot did he hit there Mr Eightiron??? Different exits for different shots...hint, it wasn't a fade

[gabh]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1393187519' post='8729110']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393117772' post='8724802']
Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did
[/quote]

LOL What shot did he hit there Mr Eightiron??? Different exits for different shots...hint, it wasn't a fade
[/quote]

Lol...that's what I said too. Then with very complicated explanation later. Sorry to have divulged some of your info Larry...

[eightiron]

Lol detailed explanation , more like gibberish with zero comprehension of basic human motion

[eightiron]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1393187519' post='8729110']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393117772' post='8724802']
Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did
[/quote]

LOL What shot did he hit there Mr Eightiron??? Different exits for different shots...hint, it wasn't a fade
[/quote]

No issue with that but he stayed on the selected "arc" with full swings , nothing like the fairy tale written about internal shoulder rotation and right wrist flexion sending the sweet spot out and having anything to do with 3 accum
If that swing was a draw then hogan surely told some big fibs because he certainly cupped his left wrist on this one and shifted out a ton
Feel free to explain how it's not a fade !!

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393123096' post='8725370']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1393122103' post='8725272']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393121682' post='8725230']
You would slow the release down and shaft would exit higher , like someone using a manufactured vertical hinge , good for short knockers
[/quote]

Be patient with me here, just want to remove all doubts if any....if you're rotating (pivot) and really fully releasing the 3 right hands with an inert left wrist, how would it slow down release? An internally rotated left elbow would allow release of accum #3 from P4 to P7, but at P7 it provides a built in protection from the face facing left. So left wrist is rolling fast from P4/5 to P7, from P7 onwards the left wrist flips and goes I to a vertical hinge motion like you said, but from then in the left elbow isa,lowed to bend in and left shoulder goes into ext rot.
[/quote]

You contradict yourself on 2 things , 1st you claim the pivot is rotating but you claim the left shoulder is internally rotating 2nd you claim you are rolling out 3 accum with an internally rotated left elbow . It's obvious that's a disruption ! You are talking nonsense about the face issue , given where Hogan had it at top / transition . Face being retarded or stability as you state is from right forearm being on plane with the shaft and correct side tilt
[/quote]

Missed this. Left shoulder int rotated is not a disruption because it doesn't affect the left wrist's hinge action. Hinge action of left wrist from open to inline or square at impact isn't disrupted nor slowed down at all, it just provides a limit on the hinge action of left wrist from rolling to the left (which makes sweetspot face left) and immediately replaces that with a flipping hinge action of the left wrist right after impact. With left elbow also bent in right after impact and base of left palm facing target at finish, the ext rotating left shoulder we see Hogan do post impact happens.

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393200031' post='8730458']
Lol detailed explanation , more like gibberish with zero comprehension of basic human motion
[/quote]

Lol...you think?...lol You're not even trying to understand it. I've addressed everything you said.

Every person reading this could understand that the left wrist can roll and hinge in whatever direction or manner even with the left elbow/shoulder int rotated, eight. And you can do this even with the right elbow coming down immediately in transition and with earlier full release. In fact that's exactly what Larry taught me.

[eightiron]

It's a disruption , it's pure nonsense , you have no clue what you are talking about , under plane elbow city .of course it disrupts the wrist action . Any active internal rotation is effecting the whole power package , yes SVS the whole kit and kaboodle

Now tell us all how that's a draw swing above mr big shot ?

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393200160' post='8730494']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1393187519' post='8729110']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393117772' post='8724802']
Nah BS his shaft wouldn't end up exiting like it did
[/quote]

LOL What shot did he hit there Mr Eightiron??? Different exits for different shots...hint, it wasn't a fade
[/quote]

No issue with that but he stayed on the selected "arc" with full swings , nothing like the fairy tale written about internal shoulder rotation and right wrist flexion sending the sweet spot out and having anything to do with 3 accum
If that swing was a draw then hogan surely told some big fibs because he certainly cupped his left wrist on this one and shifted out a ton
Feel free to explain how it's not a fade !!
[/quote]

Even granting it's a fade, eight, I've explained why shaft exits flat even with fade swings. The ext rot of left shoulder motion happens also post impact by simply letting your left elbow fold in. You don't have to passively or actively rotate that left elbow CCW before impact. The left wrist is free to do its thing from fully open at P4 to square or inline at P7.

Eight, what do you think all of these we're discussing got to do with the strong grip and no right hand participation on the release?d o you believe, in the first place, that Hogan really had a weak left hand grip and weaker right hand grip?

[gabh]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1393201517' post='8730674']
It's a disruption , it's pure nonsense , you have no clue what you are talking about , under plane elbow city .of course it disrupts the wrist action . Any active internal rotation is effecting the whole power package , yes SVS the whole kit and kaboodle

Now tell us all how that's a draw swing above mr big shot ?
[/quote]

Oh, now I know what you want to happen eight. That's just very weak. Very weak. A smart bloke like you shouldn't do these kind of things. Can't believe this is coming from you. Don't be a crab eight.

I thought we're finished with active int rot of left shoulder? I've conceded that. You are completely correct that active int rot of left shoulder in BS is into optimal.

How can it be underplane elbow city when the club head is as low as it gets at address and at impact? The only way it can be under plane is when you lower your upper center. You see I lack left side extension and right side bend and keep forward flexion thru impact but I ain't digging or compressing the ground. It sends the path left earlier, but I don't need to be shallower.

[eightiron]

I think nothing except you change goalposts and bring up a quote from when you state active internal rotation and then state it doesn't disrupt anything . Please tell us all how that's a draw swing .
Your elbow goes down in transition and you don't use 3 accum at all

Your explanation of shaft exiting was nonsense , why am I being asked about it again , I posted on it already . Right wrist flexion has nothing to do with rolling anything , zero , zip , it adds loft

[eightiron]

More Hogan with a cupped left wrist , wait for it , oops nah there is air in there , with a story to tell , open wide come inside , it's let's make up human bio mechanical movements time

[gabh]

It's a draw. Not a fade as you claim it. And only Hogan inner circle knows how to see it on Hogan swings. There's a way to determine it, it's so simple you won't believe it. Sure is not what you're talking about, eight.

Right wrist flexion has got nothing to do with accum 3 roll, you're correct. But right wrist turn/pronation/squaring does, right elbow straightening and int rot of right shoulder do. Why you keep misleading what I'm saying. So I'm not just saying right waist flexion, I'm also saying right wrist squaring to how it is oriented at address. Seems simple to understand for me. And again, this is all about int rot of left shoulder, and I'm not saying you actively make it such, you just don't do any ext rot of left shoulder stuff actively nor passively, that's for all left arm swing with a string grip.

You keep misleading. That's why you think I'm changing goalposts.

And the air is immaterial. Bec Hogan engaged the pivot with his lower body, and then fired up the pivot even more halfway down, that's why all impact pics would show his left arm more attached than the moments in time you keep showing. Besides, that's an illusion bc Hogan has no stomach tire at all.

Why you so bent in the ext rot of left shoulder when all pics CLEARLY show it's int rotated at impact? Coz some people teach it? That's fine with me, eight, why can't it be fine with you?

And you never answered my question, and I hope this ain't changing goalpost again!---what do you think all these stuff got to do with the strong grip of Mac and his zero right hand and arm participation due to his right arm injury (legit)?