I need help writing a golf paper

[ZimBag]

my term paper for the year is talking about the differences between "old" golf course designers and how they influenced the "new" new golf course designers. i was just wondering if anyone has any input for my paper. i have a decent idea what im doing just would like something to think about. any comments would be greatly appreciated

[MadGolfer76]

Look at how community demographics influenced the design of certain courses. There is also the influence of technology, building techniques, philosophy, and golf equipment.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325117852' post='3998519']
my term paper for the year is talking about the differences between "old" golf course designers and how they influenced the "new" new golf course designers. i was just wondering if anyone has any input for my paper. i have a decent idea what im doing just would like something to think about. any comments would be greatly appreciated
[/quote]

Define "old course" and "new course"? Is a redesigned course considered "new" or "old"? Is Tom Fazio an old designer or a new one (for example)? He's built both.

Many if not most course designs (new) or redesigns of old courses were in response to equipment changes (greater length) than anything else - no?

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325121290' post='3998745']
[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325117852' post='3998519']
my term paper for the year is talking about the differences between "old" golf course designers and how they influenced the "new" new golf course designers. i was just wondering if anyone has any input for my paper. i have a decent idea what im doing just would like something to think about. any comments would be greatly appreciated
[/quote]

[b]Define "old course" and "new course"? Is a redesigned course considered "new" or "old"? Is Tom Fazio an old designer or a new one (for example)? He's built both.[/b]

Many if not most course designs (new) or redesigns of old courses were in response to equipment changes (greater length) than anything else - no?
[/quote]

For the purposes of his paper, OP gets to define what constitutes old or new, so long as he is clear about his reasoning. It is a very good point, however.

[bobfoster]

As a couple of people have said ... I'm wondering about the definition of "old" vs. "new" ... are you talking about the pros? (New courses have to be loooooong) ... are you talking about country clubs trying to get membership (completely different standard). And what is "old" vs. "new"? Is old pre-Jack, or pre-Tiger (completely different standards).


If you wish to get precise answers ... please define your terms with greater precision ... (I'm speaking as a businessman that now and then teaches college courses ... )

PS. You have to promise to post your paper here when it is done ... it actually sounds very interesting ...

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1325121474' post='3998763']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325121290' post='3998745']
[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325117852' post='3998519']
my term paper for the year is talking about the differences between "old" golf course designers and how they influenced the "new" new golf course designers. i was just wondering if anyone has any input for my paper. i have a decent idea what im doing just would like something to think about. any comments would be greatly appreciated
[/quote]

[b]Define "old course" and "new course"? Is a redesigned course considered "new" or "old"? Is Tom Fazio an old designer or a new one (for example)? He's built both.[/b]

Many if not most course designs (new) or redesigns of old courses were in response to equipment changes (greater length) than anything else - no?
[/quote]

For the purposes of his paper, OP gets to define what constitutes old or new, so long as he is clear about his reasoning. It is a very good point, however.
[/quote]




Ah hah....as a clarification I meant....please define "old" vs. "new" for US here on Golfwrx.

[Sean2]

You may want to look at Donald Ross courses. They are quite different than the designs of today.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325122458' post='3998849']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1325121474' post='3998763']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325121290' post='3998745']
[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325117852' post='3998519']
my term paper for the year is talking about the differences between "old" golf course designers and how they influenced the "new" new golf course designers. i was just wondering if anyone has any input for my paper. i have a decent idea what im doing just would like something to think about. any comments would be greatly appreciated
[/quote]

[b]Define "old course" and "new course"? Is a redesigned course considered "new" or "old"? Is Tom Fazio an old designer or a new one (for example)? He's built both.[/b]

Many if not most course designs (new) or redesigns of old courses were in response to equipment changes (greater length) than anything else - no?
[/quote]

For the purposes of his paper, OP gets to define what constitutes old or new, so long as he is clear about his reasoning. It is a very good point, however.
[/quote]




Ah hah....as a clarification I meant....please define "old" vs. "new" for US here on Golfwrx.



[/quote]

Ah, I see. I've been into the eggnog this evening...you understand...

[bobfoster]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1325122723' post='3998863']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325122458' post='3998849']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1325121474' post='3998763']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325121290' post='3998745']
[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325117852' post='3998519']
my term paper for the year is talking about the differences between "old" golf course designers and how they influenced the "new" new golf course designers. i was just wondering if anyone has any input for my paper. i have a decent idea what im doing just would like something to think about. any comments would be greatly appreciated
[/quote]

[b]Define "old course" and "new course"? Is a redesigned course considered "new" or "old"? Is Tom Fazio an old designer or a new one (for example)? He's built both.[/b]

Many if not most course designs (new) or redesigns of old courses were in response to equipment changes (greater length) than anything else - no?
[/quote]

For the purposes of his paper, OP gets to define what constitutes old or new, so long as he is clear about his reasoning. It is a very good point, however.
[/quote]




Ah hah....as a clarification I meant....please define "old" vs. "new" for US here on Golfwrx.



[/quote]

Ah, I see. I've been into the eggnog this evening...you understand...
[/quote]


Happy holidays!!!!! And what excactly are you putting in your eggnog ... rum? hahahahahahaha ... pewrfectly understandable BTW ...

[Swingem]

Study the clasic designs of Alister MacKenzie and Charles Blair Macdonald, and contrast them with designs by architects like Pete Dye.

[bobfoster]

[quote name='Swingem' timestamp='1325123595' post='3998929']
Study the clasic designs of Alister MacKenzie and Charles Blair Macdonald, and contrast them with designs by architects like Pete Dye.
[/quote]

Actually ... that would be a GREAT paper ...

[ZimBag]

thanks for all the great replies. by old i mean like 1890s 1900s old and new i mean with jack and dye. my paper isnt due until may. i plan on talking about the bandon dunes complex a bit. im acctually really excited to write this

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325127904' post='3999249']
thanks for all the great replies. by old i mean like 1890s 1900s old and new i mean with jack and dye. my paper isnt due until may. i plan on talking about the bandon dunes complex a bit. im acctually really excited to write this
[/quote]

What class is this for?

[ZimBag]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325134541' post='3999607']
[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325127904' post='3999249']
thanks for all the great replies. by old i mean like 1890s 1900s old and new i mean with jack and dye. my paper isnt due until may. i plan on talking about the bandon dunes complex a bit. im acctually really excited to write this
[/quote]

What class is this for?
[/quote]

its not really a class, every year juniors need to write a 15 page research paper

[sabram]

To many historians there are three eras of Golf Course architecture: (i)the original links of Scotland that were made by the hand of God (1600's to mid 1800's (e.g. The Old Course at St Andrews),(ii) the courses that were laid out by a golf course architect with little earth moving and the use of horses and mules (basically from Old Tom Morris to A.W Tillinghast,starting in the 1870's and ending before the second World War) and (iii)the era of the steamshovel and bulldozer (form World War II to the prsent day or basically from Robert Trent Jones on. However,the current era is splitinto two schools(a) the big earth movers like Jones and his sons Rees and RTJ II, Tom Fazio and others and (b) the minimalists who harken back to the older era of trying to build courses that are more natural with less earth moving, led by Bill Coore, Tom Doak, Gil Hanse and others.

I think a good paper would be to compare one Pre-WWII GCA such as MacDonald (who is know as the father of American GCA) or Ross or Tilly against RTJ Sr (who created the modern era) to a modern minimalist (such as Coore or Doak.)

Here is a link to a site that will get you started

[url="http://www.golfclubatlas.com/architecture-timeline/"]Golf Club Atlas Time line[/url]

[ZimBag]

[quote name='sabram' timestamp='1325158851' post='4000105']
To many historians there are three eras of Golf Course architecture: (i)the original links of Scotland that were made by the hand of God (1600's to mid 1800's (e.g. The Old Course at St Andrews),(ii) the courses that were laid out by a golf course architect with little earth moving and the use of horses and mules (basically from Old Tom Morris to A.W Tillinghast,starting in the 1870's and ending before the second World War) and (iii)the era of the steamshovel and bulldozer (form World War II to the prsent day or basically from Robert Trent Jones on. However,the current era is splitinto two schools(a) the big earth movers like Jones and his sons Rees and RTJ II, Tom Fazio and others and (b) the minimalists who harken back to the older era of trying to build courses that are more natural with less earth moving, led by Bill Coore, Tom Doak, Gil Hanse and others.

I think a good paper would be to compare one Pre-WWII GCA such as MacDonald (who is know as the father of American GCA) or Ross or Tilly against RTJ Sr (who created the modern era) to a modern minimalist (such as Coore or Doak.)

Here is a link to a site that will get you started

[url="http://www.golfclubatlas.com/architecture-timeline/"]Golf Club Atlas Time line[/url]
[/quote]
thanks so much with the link it was very helpful

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325137024' post='3999721']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1325134541' post='3999607']
[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325127904' post='3999249']
thanks for all the great replies. by old i mean like 1890s 1900s old and new i mean with jack and dye. my paper isnt due until may. i plan on talking about the bandon dunes complex a bit. im acctually really excited to write this
[/quote]

What class is this for?
[/quote]

its not really a class, every year juniors need to write a 15 page research paper
[/quote]

Cool - then the subject matter actually doesn't matter, as much as the ability to show that you can do research and provide proper citation to the resources you used, and present it properly in paragraph form; proper spelling and punctuation.

How do you reference GolfWrx?

Good luck with it...I know WE on Golfwrx would love to read it for it's content.

[Malones19]

[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325127904' post='3999249']
thanks for all the great replies. by old i mean like 1890s 1900s old and new i mean with jack and dye. my paper isnt due until may. i plan on talking about the bandon dunes complex a bit. im acctually really excited to write this
[/quote]

[center]You should contact Ian Andrews who is a course Architect and is really big into the history and evolution. Check out his blog [b]ianandrewsgolf[/b]design[b]blog[/b].[b]blogs[/b]pot.com Hopefully this helps out.[/center]

[ZimBag]

[quote name='Malones19' timestamp='1325210722' post='4003283']
[quote name='ZimBag' timestamp='1325127904' post='3999249']
thanks for all the great replies. by old i mean like 1890s 1900s old and new i mean with jack and dye. my paper isnt due until may. i plan on talking about the bandon dunes complex a bit. im acctually really excited to write this
[/quote]

[center]You should contact Ian Andrews who is a course Architect and is really big into the history and evolution. Check out his blog [b]ianandrewsgolf[/b]design[b]blog[/b].[b]blogs[/b]pot.com Hopefully this helps out.[/center]
[/quote]

awesome thank you

[cheapgolfsfinest]

To try and put it in a nutshell, Zimbag, I think that if a modern designer is particularly sensitive to the old-timers, he strives for designs that work with the existing landscape as far as possible, rather than using modern machines to 'bully' terrain into whatever shape he wishes, because that is how the old-timers had to operate, not having such machinery available.

Certainly, that's how architect John Fought puts it [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySHMBSM4htw"][b]here[/b][/url]. Golf architecture, in fact, may be the only industry where sounding like a 'dinosaur' is often the mark of a progressive.

Not everyone buys into this, mind. [b][url="http://www.dyedesigns.com/"]Pete Dye[/url][/b] often seems oblivious to the idea of blending his designs with the surrounding landscape (how natural do those Pound Ridge bunkers look to you on his homepage?) yet still produces undeniably entertaining golf courses.

As you've got time for this project, can I recommend [i][b][url="http://www.amazon.com/Grounds-Golf-History-Fundamentals-Course/dp/031227808X"]Grounds for Golf[/url][/b][/i] by Geoff Shackelford, a book that's the best primer I've yet read on the evolution of course design.

Best wishes with the paper.

[ZimBag]

im getting great responses i cant thank you guys enough. I will put up the final paper up in May (sorry its so far away). I also have to make a power point about it, if you guys would like to see that also I will gladly put it up on wrx

[MadGolfer76]

Remember to cite appropriate sources (including websites) and ask about which citation style your teacher wants you to use. Since you are a Junior, they will likely be looking for that stuff, although you may be aware of that already.

Good luck!

[teejaywhy]

A great topic, one that is quite interesting to me.

You will find an unlimited source of ideas on the GolfClubAtlas.com web site. Don't overlook the "In My Opinion" section:
[url]http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/[/url]

If I may suggest an angle: After you compare & contrast old vs. new golf architecture, you might introduce what some are calling the "renaissance" in golf course design. It is a throwback of sorts, placing a greater emphasis on the values that allow the old classics to remain great. The work of Bill Coore, Tom Doak and others are taking modern golf course design in a positive (IMO) direction, giving us golf courses that are designed for playing golf, rather than golf courses that are designed for a visual impact that sells real estate or hotel rooms.

Good luck with your project.

[ZimBag]

any one interested in reading the first draft? not for edits but just for your over all though? if not yall can wait for the final draft

[Swingem]

Would love to see it.

[ZimBag]

ok after much delay i have finished this paper and will upload it. just how do i upload it here and please no hate on the paper this is not my best work by any means.

[Golf-Junkie]

Be sure to post that paper when done - would love to read it.

[Pinsplitter59]

I play at an old course (1920) built by the seaside with the advantage of naturally rolling landscape.
the main difference to me is that these courses were built to accomodate a running in approach shot (its also windy here).
you do not see a bunker in front of a green blocking entry.
and the greens are small by today's standards and the fairways narrower.
the simple solution to the high bombers killing courses today is to return to that philosophy.
small greens - making accuracy more important than distance.
narrow fairways - as above.
less bunkers - bunkers are silly and artificial, use the natural terrain as hazards,a bit of hard rough stony ground is a far greater hazard then a soft sandy bunker.
i cannot understand why greens should be so big as they usually are these days,
a 50 yard putt is ridiculous, you should be in the rough if you miss by that much.
not wanting to offend the mighty Augusta National, but the tournament becomes really a putting match because the greens are so big and the fairways so generous.

a shorter course of this style is far more challenging for shotmaking IMHO.
e.g. Jason Day shot 2 under for 2 rounds in the Aus Junior Amateur Champ on this course.
when you think a great hitter like that should murder the course to look at it.
the proof of a course is in the pudding , not in the putting.!!

[ZimBag]

anything guys?

[teejaywhy]

Thanks for sharing, I will take the time to read it after work. I noted that you cited as references, several of the books that would be considered some of the best on the subject.