I absolutely did not figure out Hogan's secret about 30 weekends ago

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342551354' post='5293828']
[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1342550187' post='5293690']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342549101' post='5293542']
I know this is just one more fart in the wind when it comes to Hogan's Secret, but I think it was as simple as not rotating the hands/clubface past square at impact.....
[/quote]

That's what Sam Snead said Hogan's secret was.

Did you do some Googling before posting this?
[/quote]

No, I studied Hogan for 14 years and have hit god knows how many golf balls. I'm providing additional information based on Hogan's actual words and pictures and offering my opinion, not claiming some unique new theory.

Do you think Snead and I are wrong?
[/quote]

Means nothing, because Hogan isn't here to clarify.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342551354' post='5293828']
[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1342550187' post='5293690']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342549101' post='5293542']
I know this is just one more fart in the wind when it comes to Hogan's Secret, but I think it was as simple as not rotating the hands/clubface past square at impact.....
[/quote]

That's what Sam Snead said Hogan's secret was.

Did you do some Googling before posting this?
[/quote]

No, I studied Hogan for 14 years and have hit god knows how many golf balls. I'm providing additional information based on Hogan's actual words and pictures and offering my opinion, not claiming some unique new theory.

Do you think Snead and I are wrong?
[/quote]

Snead I believe did have some truth to Hogan's secret, but I believe it came from Hogan's PG swing. If you watch his iron swings, he really appears to "hold-off" the release to keep his "hook" release under control. Watch Hogan's PG driver swing and you see him release it sort of Mahan-style. You have to release a low-loft club or you'll have trouble getting it off the ground(unless your Trevino and you play a fade). Hogan said he couldn't get a 4-wood off the ground the hook was so bad. Hogan's post-secret swing never once had a "hold-off" finish [i]unless[/i] he was playing it low.
Power Golf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQK4551-omc
Post-Secret(+old Hogan firing that right side release)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=f0-wSgwNjlQ&NR=1

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342552662' post='5293980']


DW, thats a very valid observation............. however technically it should be Hogan doesn't rotate hands through impact, even flippers are square at impact otherwise it wouldn't go straight!

Hogan went from being a flipper to the opposite............. no doubt this was his big discovery............ that utilizing the pivot and hitting with the right hand instead of rolling would get rid of his nasty hook............ and no matter how hard he went at the ball it wouldn't go left.

What were some of his little swing set ups and pressures to help achieve this? this is another matter but the big picture view has to be what you've observed.
[/quote]

Agree, I just didn't get into all the details. I do think I said he didn't rotate past impact/square? That was the "secret" modification to his release mechanics at the time he made the change, imo.

Hogan's "gradual supination" was the release he developed after refining his plane and his hip action, from what I can tell. He unhinged and supinated gradually coming into the ball (as he notes in his "walking back" the swing section at the end of 5L), but on most fades or straight shots he prevented that firm left-arm/hand-unit from breaking down (the wrist "jut" toward the target was part of this process). In doing so he could hit as hard as he wanted with both hands, again as he advocated.

Trevino said he (Trevino) was a "blocker". He did something similar to Hogan in this way, though the lead-up to impact was obviously different.

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342557491' post='5294562']

Bad terminology by DW more than anything else............ of course the hands and arms turn over after impact however they are not thrown/flipped through the impact zone............. if they were the clubface in the follow thru would be facing the ground, whereas for Hogan and other classic ballstrikers the club face remains far more open.
[/quote]

No, I said "...but I think it was as simple as not rotating the hands/clubface [b]past square [u]at[/u] impact."[/b]

At some point they do roll over, as he called it "gradual supination" that begins prior to impact. But AT impact he did not permit the hands/wrists/clubface to break down or roll past square.

As for seeing the release in some footage, I already said something about that. Without seeing the ballflight, it was confusing to analyze, until I re-read Power Golf and noted that he actually advocated more rolling (read:release of his own type) for draws. I think when you see later footage/pics of him releasing past the ball he is hitting some kind of a draw or hook.

Fwiw, it is possible to pre-set the face angle a little closed and still not release past the hands being square and get a draw of some kind. And in PG Hogan called the rolling method a "hook", iirc.

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1342552851' post='5294004']
I believe Hogan's secret enabled him to prevent the hands from rolling over. You can't just claim that the secret was "Not rolling the hands over". He did something to make this happen and it has yet to be discovered.
[/quote]

Ok, I see what you're saying, but I disagree to an extent. I do think it is possible to add what I said to what he said to get his "secret" for stopping hooks. If you want to call it something other than just athletic ability to not flip or roll over (which is possible) then you could look at the way he bowed his wrist and how his release was a forearm rotation (supination).

Done on the right arc--and driven by lower body action-- that rotates the clubshaft and clubhead down along an axis (a function of setup and plane) that will tend to be either open at address or, if over-rotated, just deloft the club through impact as it rotates downward, AS LONG AS the wrist-bow/jut move is maintained.

So again, it was a combination of his release fundamentals with the idea to not rotate past square AT impact. It was "his" secret for "his" swing, as it was constructed at the time. IMO



[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342572304' post='5296072']
[b]I don't have my copy of 5L with me, but Hogan says he only had to focus on doing a few things right for every swing. I know one was the bowed wrist into impact, and two was correctly sequencing the downswing. Anyone remember if there was a third?[/b]

I believe that was his secret, he narrowed "his" swing thoughts down to a few short essentials instead of dissecting it into 1001 parts. If you figure out how to do those few things correctly no matter how upright/flat the backswing - you have yourself a consistently repeating golf swing. You can go into the details when you can stripe it like him and hit 14 fairways/18 greens on a whim. Try not to speculate, dig it out of the dirt.
[/quote]

The bold relates to what I was saying above. He listed 8 movements in his "walk back" the swing section of 5L. He walked them backwards to show how they're linked in a chain, all the way back to the grip and setup. Being on plane and initiating the downswing with the hips were among them.

However, I don't think narrowing down the swing thoughts was his "secret" to stopping the hooks for good, although I agree it is a very good idea for all golfers.

People can disagree at will. These are my opinions from years of studying all the Hogan writing, pictures and footage I could get ahold of while experimenting with it all in many different settings. I don't think his method is for everyone, btw.

[svsvincenzo]

Why you guys keep on saying he held it off, he didn't roll the hands, he gradually supinated...THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID.

Hogan said: he rolled it as fast as he could and he couldn't hooks the darn ball...

He did as much as he can to roll that L hand and clubhead and clubface...but it just stayed square at impact zone...both Trevino and Hogan had it...

Listen to him...ITS HIS SWING...

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342572304' post='5296072']
I don't have my copy of 5L with me, but Hogan says he only had to focus on doing a few things right for every swing. I know one was the bowed wrist into impact, and two was correctly sequencing the downswing. Anyone remember if there was a third?

I believe that was his secret, he narrowed "his" swing thoughts down to a few short essentials instead of dissecting it into 1001 parts. If you figure out how to do those few things correctly no matter how upright/flat the backswing - you have yourself a consistently repeating golf swing. You can go into the details when you can stripe it like him and hit 14 fairways/18 greens on a whim. Try not to speculate, dig it out of the dirt.
[/quote]
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342576748' post='5296596']
In PG, Hogan clearly had a 3-knuckle grip and advocated a limp R arm, and a R elbow that is always under the L elbow. He also advocated a strict no-turning or no-pronation of the L hand, and a no-turning or no-fanning of the clubface during the BS. He wanted the clubface to be totally square all the time to the arc of the clubhead.

In '55 Life article, '57 5Lessons, and '85 Golf Digest interview with Seitz, it was different. He clearly had a swing change.

In '55 Life article, he said no matter how much he rolled into the ball, he wouldn't hook it. And of course he changed into a 1-knuckler grip and had a slightly cupped L wrist on top. He said the palm of his R hand faces the sky, the palm of his L hand faces the ground.

In '55 5Lessons, he also had a 1-knuckler, tightened or connected his R armpit to his body, definitely no limp R arm/elbow, and no R elbow below the L elbow. He also said the supination of the L wrist and the L wrist bone leading the hands/clubhead.

In '85 GD, he clearly said he rolled or fanned the face of the club as open and as far as possible in the BS. He emphasized the use of the L arm, and emphasized the connection of the arms to the body.

Despite the above changes from PG (from square to turning/rolling clubhead), Hogan's hands never crossed-over at IMPACT. Never. The crossing-over always started to happen around at least a foot past impact. Yeah, the big question is WHY?????

IMO, the secret cannot be the non-rolling over intent on the hands and clubhead/clubface because Hogan clearly said he had a rolling intent based on the above articles/book. It is something else. How can Hogan have a rolling intent, but his hands and clubface remained square and didn't cross-over too early before and at impact. It is always after impact. That is the question.
[/quote]


Look at a tennis player. They are able to rotate the lead arm radially and back to square and HOLD it square through impact. I know this is possible.

Hogan's swing was about the "chain reaction", upon which various parts of the body/swing were called into action. The hands were passive until just before impact, but he DID hit with them. If you are actively hitting with your hands, then they are not just passive attachments to the club being dragged through, and they have the ability to do whatever you want them to do, right?

As I said above, everything prior to that rotational/supination release INTO impact was designed to get to that point so the hands and wrists/forearms could begin the "gradual supination" into impact, which Hogan listed in 5L as one of the fundamental movements in the "walk back" section. This means it was one of the things he focused on in his swing. The "secret", imo, was simply to only supinate (by feel and repetition, most likely) back to the address/impact square position, with the backup insurance of the rotational downturn due to the release type (supination), plane, setup, etc... and the wrist bow (which he starts VERY early in the downswing).

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342619295' post='5298980']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342572304' post='5296072']
I don't have my copy of 5L with me, but Hogan says he only had to focus on doing a few things right for every swing. I know one was the bowed wrist into impact, and two was correctly sequencing the downswing. Anyone remember if there was a third?

I believe that was his secret, he narrowed "his" swing thoughts down to a few short essentials instead of dissecting it into 1001 parts. If you figure out how to do those few things correctly no matter how upright/flat the backswing - you have yourself a consistently repeating golf swing. You can go into the details when you can stripe it like him and hit 14 fairways/18 greens on a whim. Try not to speculate, dig it out of the dirt.
[/quote]
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342576748' post='5296596']
In PG, Hogan clearly had a 3-knuckle grip and advocated a limp R arm, and a R elbow that is always under the L elbow. He also advocated a strict no-turning or no-pronation of the L hand, and a no-turning or no-fanning of the clubface during the BS. He wanted the clubface to be totally square all the time to the arc of the clubhead.

In '55 Life article, '57 5Lessons, and '85 Golf Digest interview with Seitz, it was different. He clearly had a swing change.

In '55 Life article, he said no matter how much he rolled into the ball, he wouldn't hook it. And of course he changed into a 1-knuckler grip and had a slightly cupped L wrist on top. He said the palm of his R hand faces the sky, the palm of his L hand faces the ground.

In '55 5Lessons, he also had a 1-knuckler, tightened or connected his R armpit to his body, definitely no limp R arm/elbow, and no R elbow below the L elbow. He also said the supination of the L wrist and the L wrist bone leading the hands/clubhead.

In '85 GD, he clearly said he rolled or fanned the face of the club as open and as far as possible in the BS. He emphasized the use of the L arm, and emphasized the connection of the arms to the body.

Despite the above changes from PG (from square to turning/rolling clubhead), Hogan's hands never crossed-over at IMPACT. Never. The crossing-over always started to happen around at least a foot past impact. Yeah, the big question is WHY?????

IMO, the secret cannot be the non-rolling over intent on the hands and clubhead/clubface because Hogan clearly said he had a rolling intent based on the above articles/book. It is something else. How can Hogan have a rolling intent, but his hands and clubface remained square and didn't cross-over too early before and at impact. It is always after impact. That is the question.
[/quote]


Look at a tennis player. They are able to rotate the lead arm radially and back to square and HOLD it square through impact. I know this is possible.

Hogan's swing was about the "chain reaction", upon which various parts of the body/swing were called into action. The hands were passive until just before impact, but he DID hit with them. If you are actively hitting with your hands, then they are not just passive attachments to the club being dragged through, and they have the ability to do whatever you want them to do, right?

As I said above, everything prior to that rotational/supination release INTO impact was designed to get to that point so the hands and wrists/forearms could begin the "gradual supination" into impact, which Hogan listed in 5L as one of the fundamental movements in the "walk back" section. This means it was one of the things he focused on in his swing. The "secret", imo, was simply to only supinate (by feel and repetition, most likely) back to the address/impact square position, with the backup insurance of the rotational downturn due to the release type (supination), plane, setup, etc... and the wrist bow (which he starts VERY early in the downswing).
[/quote]

He supinated as hard as he can (as he said in '55 Life article)...but the clubface just can't turn or close over early...he and Lee Trevino had it...no matter what they do, the face won't close early...the only difference between Hogan and Trevino is that Trevino had a flatter shoulder turn in BS, which he compensated with with a more upright/lifted L arm in BS, so he had to really slide the hips to get his hands, arms and club really down to elbow plane for release as his hands/arms/club had more to travel down from top to elbow plane. Hogan had a more upright shoulder turn, so he don't have to lift his L arm and disconnect the R armpit, so he got to the elbow plane earlier than most for release. Remember, Hogan and Trevino were relatively small dudes...

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342618892' post='5298928']
Why you guys keep on saying he held it off, he didn't roll the hands, he gradually supinated...THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID.

Hogan said: he rolled it as fast as he could and he couldn't hooks the darn ball...

He did as much as he can to roll that L hand and clubhead and clubface...but it just stayed square at impact zone...both Trevino and Hogan had it...

Listen to him...ITS HIS SWING...
[/quote]

Sorry, all, not trying to "run the thread", just replying as posts come up...

In the GD interview I saw, for one, he said he never hit a straight ball and you work it either way. So he did draw it if he had to, which can explain sometimes rotating less and sometimes more.

I'm sure this link has probably been posted somewhere on these boards over the years, but there are actual images of the various Hogan interviews. The "roll" quote people keep mentioning seems to be in the swing sequence about halfway down the page, and in it he doesn't say one way or the other if he's rotating past square on his fades. The actual sequence is of a much older Hogan, and the release looks different than the "classic" Hogan we see in the videos in posts above and elsewhere...

[url="http://secretinthedirt.com/index.php/forum/155-building-and-owning-your-swing/34151-re-hogans-qultimateq-secret"]http://secretinthedi...ltimateq-secret[/url]

Again, I don't think he did what I said on every single shot. He admitted that he never hit a straight shot and always worked the wall one way or the other. And I believe in order to KNOW which way the ball was going to go, he either released or he didn't (as he said in PG).


edit: he did sayin 5L that there was a "gradual supination", btw, and he did list the beginning of this supination as one of his key moves and among his fundamentals. His words, don't have the page number handy (at work)

[svsvincenzo]

@DW

If Hogan released his L wrist more for a draw, then released less for a fade, don't you think he'll lose distance? He said no matter how hard he rolled INTO THE BALL, he couldn't hook it. His solution was a weak grip and slightly or invisible to the naked eye cupped L wrist for a fade that he said didn't lose distance at all. For a draw, he just didn't do the cupping.

[Dire Wolf]

Ok, folks, here you go:

 

 

"It had to do with the face of the club" (top of 3rd column)

 

So, if you believe this, his "secret" did have to do with never letting the face of the club get past square at impact ("turned over" as he says), as physics demands, but the WAY he did it was by rotating the club farther and faster than he could rotated it back, and "training" himself in doing it. He also says above that grip change alone was not enough. As I said, I believe everything before that release/rotation into impact was designed so that the rotation at the point of impact was carried through the shot (clubhead moving faster than rotation speed) and the clubshaft/head rotation through impact turned the clubface DOWNWARD, delofting it on the target line long enough for square or slightly open orientation/contact. When hitting a bigger fade, this rotation would be much slower than the pace of the club through the ball. When hitting a draw, the clubhead was allowed to release past a bit more, with more roll of the hands/wrists, as per PG.

 

Does that make sense?

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342622036' post='5299274']
@DW

If Hogan released his L wrist more for a draw, then released less for a fade, don't you think he'll lose distance? He said no matter how hard he rolled INTO THE BALL, he couldn't hook it. His solution was a weak grip and slightly or invisible to the naked eye cupped L wrist for a fade that he said didn't lose distance at all. For a draw, he just didn't do the cupping.
[/quote]

But any video or swing sequence of later Hogan shows a pronounced BOWING of the left wrist well before release. The cup was gone even before the rotation really got going. It wasn't the cup itself, or the grip. It was the speed of the rotation open and then back combined with his other fundamentals, which kept the clubface from being shut. The left wrist did not break down on "normal" shots and the clubhead (and L arm unit) was going through the ball faster than the clubhead was closing, giving the appearance and EFFECT of not rolling past square at impact. He said in PG he changed his setup and release for draws. Again, I think that explains the difference in footage/pics.

[hoganfan924]

Remember in 5L where Hogan says he didn't develop true confidence in his swing until he was able to slot his backswing time after time? The left forearm pronation is what enabled this but it did something more. It allowed him to come down on his elbow plane every time without a big transition reroute like other great "one plane releasers" (e.g. Furyk and Nick Price). Therefore he could fully gas it right from the top for maximum power. And coming down on this shallower plane creates an axial torque about the left arm on the downswing that makes squaring the face virtually automatic, therefore completely eliminating the need for a conscious/forced supination in the downswing. This is how Hogan can go from a wide open clubface at P6 to (relatively) square at P7 (impact) every time. IMO, this is the overlooked genius in his swing and what separates him from others.

Those who haven't experienced this for themselves are always skeptical, because they've never felt it. Hogan said this backswing pronation secret (from his 8/8/55) would be ruinous to the average golfer because he understood that the average golfer would never get down to this lower plane on the downswing and would therefore leave their clubface wide open into impact. Whether he intellectually understood the "why" of this or just felt it intuitively is unknown to me. This is what I believe. Pretty simple really (but hard to trust if you've not been there before).

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342623114' post='5299404']
Remember in 5L where Hogan says he didn't develop true confidence in his swing until he was able to slot his backswing time after time? The left forearm pronation is what enabled this but it did something more. It allowed him to come down on his elbow plane every time without a big transition reroute like other great "one plane releasers" (e.g. Furyk and Nick Price). Therefore he could fully gas it right from the top for maximum power. And coming down on this shallower plane creates an axial torque about the left arm on the downswing that makes squaring the face virtually automatic, therefore completely eliminating the need for a conscious/forced supination in the downswing. This is how Hogan can go from a wide open clubface at P6 to (relatively) square at P7 (impact) every time. IMO, this is the overlooked genius in his swing and what separates him from others.

Those who haven't experienced this for themselves are always skeptical, because they've never felt it. Hogan said this backswing pronation secret (from his 8/8/55) would be ruinous to the average golfer because he understood that the average golfer would never get down to this lower plane on the downswing and would therefore leave their clubface wide open into impact. Whether he intellectually understood the "why" of this or just felt it intuitively is unknown to me. This is what I believe. Pretty simple really (but hard to trust if you've not been there before).
[/quote]

Oh I totally get what you're saying because I've done it before. It was like magic. I thought "I've got it!" Problem was, I couldn't sustain it. Maybe I didn't work at it long enough or maybe I'm too tall for the method (long legs) because a lot depends on the stability and motion of the lower body in driving it all. I found that when I got on the course, I would have problems with chunks and thins at times, mostly with the wedges. Hogan did alter his setup and takeaway length for wedges, but I'm not sure that's what was missing for me.

There were also times when the "natural" release and squaring didn't seem to work and I couldn't figure out why. I went back to 5L and re-read the walk-back part with the gradual supination step before impact, and tried to dial in that in some conscious way, but the results were also inconsistent.

I think this is why he said "you'll find it in the dirt". I think his swing and release were SO grooved that he could just visualize the shot (as he said in the interviews linked above) and the release/swing would just happen, even if there was some "active" movement in places we tend to think of as totally passive (including the FEELING of not rotating past square before impact, even if not trying to square the face manually as he said it was "folly"). Maybe I'm wrong, my $.02 (until I find some other angle!)

edit: Oh, and he didn't just credit the plane for his confidence. He credited essentially confidence that there was no reason to believe his swing would fall apart (aka CONFIDENCE ITSELF!) because "ambitious over-thoroughness" was not necessary or adviseable. He boiled his swing down to the 8 or so key movements he could perform even if he was "not particularly sharp that morning". I think I have the quotes right...I'm going from memory.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342623114' post='5299404']
Remember in 5L where Hogan says he didn't develop true confidence in his swing until he was able to slot his backswing time after time? The left forearm pronation is what enabled this but it did something more. It allowed him to come down on his elbow plane every time without a big transition reroute like other great "one plane releasers" (e.g. Furyk and Nick Price). Therefore he could fully gas it right from the top for maximum power. And coming down on this shallower plane creates an axial torque about the left arm on the downswing that makes squaring the face virtually automatic, therefore completely eliminating the need for a conscious/forced supination in the downswing. This is how Hogan can go from a wide open clubface at P6 to (relatively) square at P7 (impact) every time. IMO, this is the overlooked genius in his swing and what separates him from others.

Those who haven't experienced this for themselves are always skeptical, because they've never felt it. Hogan said this backswing pronation secret (from his 8/8/55) would be ruinous to the average golfer because he understood that the average golfer would never get down to this lower plane on the downswing and would therefore leave their clubface wide open into impact. Whether he intellectually understood the "why" of this or just felt it intuitively is unknown to me. This is what I believe. Pretty simple really (but hard to trust if you've not been there before).
[/quote]

Awesome post. Very interesting/informative.

Do you think part of the key to Hogan's release was how fast he bent his left arm after impact. I've been noticing it more and more. And I really see it in your swing too (great release btw, very Hogan, I love watching it and pausing it just after impact - done praising now).

A big difference in pre vs post secret Hogan was how his upper left arm slammed into his side. I think most would agree on that. But maybe his left arm bending so fast allowed this (just part of the puzzle obviously)? Maybe that's why his right arm could also stay bent so long, because his left would break down so the right wasn't forced to extend? And maybe that's why he could approach the ball so low and shallow? By this I mean his left shoulder at P6 is very low relative to flippers (like me). If I came in that low I'd take monster divots and get kicked off the range. Hogan extends through impact with the left side, but I just think it's very interesting how quick that left arm breaks down.

Any thoughts?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1342624298' post='5299488']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342623114' post='5299404']
Remember in 5L where Hogan says he didn't develop true confidence in his swing until he was able to slot his backswing time after time? The left forearm pronation is what enabled this but it did something more. It allowed him to come down on his elbow plane every time without a big transition reroute like other great "one plane releasers" (e.g. Furyk and Nick Price). Therefore he could fully gas it right from the top for maximum power. And coming down on this shallower plane creates an axial torque about the left arm on the downswing that makes squaring the face virtually automatic, therefore completely eliminating the need for a conscious/forced supination in the downswing. This is how Hogan can go from a wide open clubface at P6 to (relatively) square at P7 (impact) every time. IMO, this is the overlooked genius in his swing and what separates him from others.

Those who haven't experienced this for themselves are always skeptical, because they've never felt it. Hogan said this backswing pronation secret (from his 8/8/55) would be ruinous to the average golfer because he understood that the average golfer would never get down to this lower plane on the downswing and would therefore leave their clubface wide open into impact. Whether he intellectually understood the "why" of this or just felt it intuitively is unknown to me. This is what I believe. Pretty simple really (but hard to trust if you've not been there before).
[/quote]

Awesome post. Very interesting/informative.

Do you think part of the key to Hogan's release was how fast he bent his left arm after impact. I've been noticing it more and more. And I really see it in your swing too (great release btw, very Hogan, I love watching it and pausing it just after impact - done praising now).

A big difference in pre vs post secret Hogan was how his upper left arm slammed into his side. I think most would agree on that. But maybe his left arm bending so fast allowed this (just part of the puzzle obviously)? Maybe that's why his right arm could also stay bent so long, because his left would break down so the right wasn't forced to extend? And maybe that's why he could approach the ball so low and shallow? By this I mean his left shoulder at P6 is very low relative to flippers (like me). If I came in that low I'd take monster divots and get kicked off the range. Hogan extends through impact with the left side, but I just think it's very interesting how quick that left arm breaks down.

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

No, Hogan had a ton of extension into the follow through with both arms, IMO. His shoulder rotation post-impact is just so fast (faster than mine for sure) that this probably makes it look like he folds the left elbow earlier than he really does. Funny you mention this because it's the part of my own swing that I dislike the most. lol Look at Slicefixer's youtube channel and watch his students from that over the camera view. They all extend the left arm more than I do. So I've been working on keeping my elbows closer together, Not really that big of a deal though, ball's long gone by then. I think my impact is a bit more "Lee Westwood" than Hogan at the moment. But Westy thumps it pretty well.

[svsvincenzo]

@DW

The cup was on top. That cup delayed the release of the L wrist a bit, i.e., bit open face at impact.

He said in that article you posted that in the DS he rotated the club like a baseball bat. The faster he rotated the club, the more distance he got.

In '55 Life article, he said: no matter how fast I rolled into the ball, he can't hook it.

@HF

If you experience an auto-supination, that means you lost control of the clubhead. You cannot slow it down or make it faster. How would you control distance with that? In case of Hogan, he could change pivot speed from 1st to 4th gear and the face won't be affected, it will still be square at impact. It will always be square at impact.

[svsvincenzo]

@HF

Where is your swing? What topic?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342625014' post='5299554']
@DW

The cup was on top. That cup delayed the release of the L wrist a bit, i.e., bit open face at impact.

He said in that article you posted that in the DS he rotated the club like a baseball bat. The faster he rotated the club, the more distance he got.

In '55 Life article, he said: no matter how fast I rolled into the ball, he can't hook it.

@HF

If you experience an auto-supination, that means you lost control of the clubhead. You cannot slow it down or make it faster. How would you control distance with that? In case of Hogan, he could change pivot speed from 1st to 4th gear and the face won't be affected, it will still be square at impact. It will always be square at impact.
[/quote]

Rotate and roll are two different things. No loss of clubhead control. You don't control distance with supination.

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342625002' post='5299552']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1342624298' post='5299488']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342623114' post='5299404']
Remember in 5L where Hogan says he didn't develop true confidence in his swing until he was able to slot his backswing time after time? The left forearm pronation is what enabled this but it did something more. It allowed him to come down on his elbow plane every time without a big transition reroute like other great "one plane releasers" (e.g. Furyk and Nick Price). Therefore he could fully gas it right from the top for maximum power. And coming down on this shallower plane creates an axial torque about the left arm on the downswing that makes squaring the face virtually automatic, therefore completely eliminating the need for a conscious/forced supination in the downswing. This is how Hogan can go from a wide open clubface at P6 to (relatively) square at P7 (impact) every time. IMO, this is the overlooked genius in his swing and what separates him from others.

Those who haven't experienced this for themselves are always skeptical, because they've never felt it. Hogan said this backswing pronation secret (from his 8/8/55) would be ruinous to the average golfer because he understood that the average golfer would never get down to this lower plane on the downswing and would therefore leave their clubface wide open into impact. Whether he intellectually understood the "why" of this or just felt it intuitively is unknown to me. This is what I believe. Pretty simple really (but hard to trust if you've not been there before).
[/quote]

Awesome post. Very interesting/informative.

Do you think part of the key to Hogan's release was how fast he bent his left arm after impact. I've been noticing it more and more. And I really see it in your swing too (great release btw, very Hogan, I love watching it and pausing it just after impact - done praising now).

A big difference in pre vs post secret Hogan was how his upper left arm slammed into his side. I think most would agree on that. But maybe his left arm bending so fast allowed this (just part of the puzzle obviously)? Maybe that's why his right arm could also stay bent so long, because his left would break down so the right wasn't forced to extend? And maybe that's why he could approach the ball so low and shallow? By this I mean his left shoulder at P6 is very low relative to flippers (like me). If I came in that low I'd take monster divots and get kicked off the range. Hogan extends through impact with the left side, but I just think it's very interesting how quick that left arm breaks down.

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

No,[b] Hogan had a ton of extension into the follow through with both arms, [/b]IMO. His shoulder rotation post-impact is just so fast (faster than mine for sure) that this probably makes it look like he folds the left elbow earlier than he really does. Funny you mention this because it's the part of my own swing that I dislike the most. lol Look at Slicefixer's youtube channel and watch his students from that over the camera view. They all extend the left arm more than I do. So I've been working on keeping my elbows closer together, Not really that big of a deal though, ball's long gone by then. I think my impact is a bit more "Lee Westwood" than Hogan at the moment. But Westy thumps it pretty well.
[/quote]

This is my observation as well. In fact, Snead later changed his appraisal of what he thought Hogan's secret was. I wonder how many know that?

I don't have the book handy, but in Snead's book "The Game I Love" he said you can't keep a secret for long on the tour, and he thought Hogan (to paraphrase) was extending his right arm toward the target more through impact.

Just throwing that out there...

[svsvincenzo]

@HF

You said you experience an axial torque that would make supination automatic, so no need to supinate intentionally.

I meant, if you experience this, that means #2 (L wrist c0ck) has released, which in turn will automatically release #3 (roll or supinate the L wrist). If you slow down your pivot for a lesser distance needed for the shot, the clubface will be more closed. If you pivot faster, the clubface will be more open. You will always have to use the same pivot speed to time the face to square at impact. The rate of closure cannot be controlled if #2 start releasing already.

[hoganfan924]

No, you don't understand this concept. #2 doesn't have to release to create this torque. In fact, the opposite is true. Do the free body physics diagram or check out Sasho MacKenzie's page.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342625363' post='5299598']

This is my observation as well. In fact, Snead later changed his appraisal of what he thought Hogan's secret was. I wonder how many know that?

I don't have the book handy, but in Snead's book "The Game I Love" he said you can't keep a secret for long on the tour, and he thought Hogan (to paraphrase) was extending his right arm toward the target more through impact.

Just throwing that out there...
[/quote]

+1. But IMO not the secret.

By the way, Kris Tschetter, in her book, said Hogan told her to fire that R hand hard with the 3 last fingers of the R hand. Kris is a long-time Hogan student. Even later than Schlee.

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342625014' post='5299554']
@DW

The cup was on top. That cup delayed the release of the L wrist a bit, i.e., bit open face at impact.

He said in that article you posted that in the DS he rotated the club like a baseball bat. The faster he rotated the club, the more distance he got.

In '55 Life article, he said: no matter how fast I rolled into the ball, he can't hook it.

@HF

If you experience an auto-supination, that means you lost control of the clubhead. You cannot slow it down or make it faster. How would you control distance with that? In case of Hogan, he could change pivot speed from 1st to 4th gear and the face won't be affected, it will still be square at impact. It will always be square at impact.
[/quote]


Can you provide a link to the exact quote from '55? You can roll INTO the ball and not be rolling over and closed through impact. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I know the cup was at the top...but it doesn't matter in terms of impact because it's gone by the time the hitting mechanics start, and the wrist is PRONOUNCEDLY bowed well before release! Stand over a ball and bow your wrist toward the target. The face opens and delofts, doesn't it? Now bend the left wrist backwards...the face is ahead of the hands and pointing left. If the cupping/bowing sequence did anything, it combined with his rotational movement to create a closed-to-open progression. The bowing is what created the open face angle, along with the speed of the swing vs distance/speed of rotation.

Also, if you look at some photos from the 5L sessions and that era, a lot of times you see Hogan with the "cup" at address as well, yet at impact his L-arm/wrist/club unit (LAC unit) is dead straight.

[drewspin]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342625265' post='5299586']
Rotate and roll are two different things. [/quote]

+ quadrillion

[u][b]Roll [/b][/u]going back, [b][u]rotate [/u][/b]WITH THE LEFT ARM on the way through.

No trouble to square the face, it will want to rotate axially MORE than it needs to. Trouble is keeping pivot speed and finding the way to slam it alllllllllmmmmmmmmmoooooossstt square. That's the secret.

Read the hogan quote in the introduction from the Nick Seitz interview:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Hogans-Five-Lessons-Fundamentals/dp/0671723014/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342626379&sr=1-1&keywords=five+lessons#reader_0671723014"]http://www.amazon.co...ader_0671723014[/url]

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342625976' post='5299678']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342625363' post='5299598']
This is my observation as well. In fact, Snead later changed his appraisal of what he thought Hogan's secret was. I wonder how many know that?

I don't have the book handy, but in Snead's book "The Game I Love" he said you can't keep a secret for long on the tour, and he thought Hogan (to paraphrase) was extending his right arm toward the target more through impact.

Just throwing that out there...
[/quote]

+1. But IMO not the secret.

By the way, Kris Tschetter, in her book, said Hogan told her to fire that R hand hard with the 3 last fingers of the R hand. Kris is a long-time Hogan student. Even later than Schlee.
[/quote]

What would be the "last 3"? The middle down to pinky? Don't get me started on my Hogan conspiracy theories about the "pincer" fingers. lol

btw, I don't agree with Schlee at all. My observations just don't jive with his theory. Sure, you could force that to work if you grooved it, but that wasn't what Hogan was doing, I don't think. Too many pics and vids contradict it.

[svsvincenzo]

@DW

It matters (the cup). It delays the release of the L wrist. Try this drill...flat L wrist in top, the. Try to roll the L wrist hard. Just the arms, no need to pivot. You will hit the ball left. Note where the ball lands.

Now, cup the L wrist on top a bit, then try flatten the L wrist first, then roll the L wrist hard. The ball goes somewhere at the right side of the first ball.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342626239' post='5299702']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342625976' post='5299678']
[quote name='Dire Wolf' timestamp='1342625363' post='5299598']
This is my observation as well. In fact, Snead later changed his appraisal of what he thought Hogan's secret was. I wonder how many know that?

I don't have the book handy, but in Snead's book "The Game I Love" he said you can't keep a secret for long on the tour, and he thought Hogan (to paraphrase) was extending his right arm toward the target more through impact.

Just throwing that out there...
[/quote]

+1. But IMO not the secret.

By the way, Kris Tschetter, in her book, said Hogan told her to fire that R hand hard with the 3 last fingers of the R hand. Kris is a long-time Hogan student. Even later than Schlee.
[/quote]

What would be the "last 3"? The middle down to pinky? Don't get me started on my Hogan conspiracy theories about the "pincer" fingers. lol

btw, I don't agree with Schlee at all. My observations just don't jive with his theory. Sure, you could force that to work if you grooved it, but that wasn't what Hogan was doing, I don't think. Too many pics and vids contradict it.
[/quote]

Yes, middle to pinky.

What is it that Schlee said that you don't agree with?

Re '55 Life article, you're a Hogan nut and you don't have it?!..lol. On mobile, it's on my laptop.

[Dire Wolf]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342626258' post='5299706']
Yes, middle to pinky.

What is it that Schlee said that you don't agree with?

Re '55 Life article, you're a Hogan nut and you don't have it?!..lol. On mobile, it's on my laptop.
[/quote]

No I wanted to see the source you're reading from and get the exact wording you're working from. Rolling into the ball is not the same as rolling through it and closing the face.

I did not agree with Schlee that the left elbow movement squares the clubface. That's his whole premise. But I've seen enough pics/vids where Hogan's left elbow is almost pointed down the line, and definitely not "cup up" with the elbow pointed at the left hip, at impact.

[Arafel]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342626454' post='5299728']

Yes, middle to pinky.

What is it that Schlee said that you don't agree with?

Re '55 Life article, you're a Hogan nut and you don't have it?!..lol. On mobile, it's on my laptop.
[/quote]

Don't you mean index to ring finger? The pinky isn't even on the club.