I absolutely did not figure out Hogan's secret about 30 weekends ago

[ej002]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340331723' post='5145990']
Been enjoying this thread from the beginning. The discussions about pec and arm development prompted me to comment. I did not start playing golf until age 25 (44 now) and was an athlete and bodybuilder for years prior. My muscularity has greatly influenced (limited/restricted) my swing. I was a self taught 6 hc and paid little attention to swing mechanics prior to joining Golfwrx. I began following the Slicefixer (Geoff Jones) 9-3 thread last year and doing the drills. I even went to see Geoff in Texarkana last Fall. Generally speaking, Geoff teaches a Hogan-type swing. Since then I have come down to damn near scratch. My current hc (with a shoulder impingement that is being surgically repaired on July 11th) is 1.8. Here is my swing:


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp[/media]


You can see that my left arm breaks down significantly, and it used to actually be quite worse. This is a result of having a sense of internal timing that wants to be long an fluid (like Couples or Els), but a body type that won't allow it. My clubface is also shut at the top, largely the result of an inside takeaway and improper wrist set. When I was bigger it seemed like the only way I could turn fully was to swing the clubhead around me and let it pulll my shoulders/torso under my chin. When I was bigger I used to lose even more spine angle as I rose to turn my left delt under my chin. Anyway, I thought you all might find it interesting, cause it certainly isn't pretty.


Regarding Hogan's secret, I think it is the connection of the upper left arm to the torso through impact combined with the bent right wrist at impact pushing through to the left with the pad of the right hand index finger. His pivot and rotation are a given, but this is a very unique action IMO.
[/quote]

8iron is probably going to flame me for this (but I really don't care), but that swing kind of reminds me of Morad guys. Kind of funny, considering you did a lot of your own work and have seen Geoff. Guess that is why they say Geoff is like "Redneck Morad" ... Nice swing. If it is space you are looking for with your bigger developed chest, look for the info on drill where you are taking the club back down the line for 15-18" before you rotate the left arm. W/o face on I can't be sure, but IMO you are over connecting the right bicept at the start causing you to come inside (you just need right armpit connection). A little bit of space should give you some more room, and Geoff's 15" drill should help, but hey what do I know?

[TEConnor]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340331723' post='5145990']
Been enjoying this thread from the beginning. The discussions about pec and arm development prompted me to comment. I did not start playing golf until age 25 (44 now) and was an athlete and bodybuilder for years prior. My muscularity has greatly influenced (limited/restricted) my swing. I was a self taught 6 hc and paid little attention to swing mechanics prior to joining Golfwrx. I began following the Slicefixer (Geoff Jones) 9-3 thread last year and doing the drills. I even went to see Geoff in Texarkana last Fall. Generally speaking, Geoff teaches a Hogan-type swing. Since then I have come down to damn near scratch. My current hc (with a shoulder impingement that is being surgically repaired on July 11th) is 1.8. Here is my swing:


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp[/media]


You can see that my left arm breaks down significantly, and it used to actually be quite worse. This is a result of having a sense of internal timing that wants to be long an fluid (like Couples or Els), but a body type that won't allow it. My clubface is also shut at the top, largely the result of an inside takeaway and improper wrist set. When I was bigger it seemed like the only way I could turn fully was to swing the clubhead around me and let it pulll my shoulders/torso under my chin. When I was bigger I used to lose even more spine angle as I rose to turn my left delt under my chin. Anyway, I thought you all might find it interesting, cause it certainly isn't pretty.


Regarding Hogan's secret, I think it is the connection of the upper left arm to the torso through impact combined with the bent right wrist at impact pushing through to the left with the pad of the right hand index finger. His pivot and rotation are a given, but this is a very unique action IMO.
[/quote]

Nice action dpb. Love your impact...great leverage, compression, stability. You're definitely figuring out [i]your[/i] way with Geoff's help. I guarantee you that you and Geoff are on the right path, nonetheless, I'll throw in my two cents and recommend that you look at videos of Hogan, Spider, etc from the rear and compare to yourself. When I did this (think Geoff and I might have done as well, can't remember) and really looked at the backswings I saw that I wasn't creating anywhere near the width that they did. My main fault, I felt was a too-inside, suck-behind takeaway. I kind of get the idea that you might see something similar. Amazing to me to see Hogan actually create space between right elbow and torso on the backswing/takeaway, when all I had been taught (prior to seeing Geoff mind you) up to that time about Hogan was to just glue the arms to the chest...

Cheers,
Tim

P.S. My contribution to the thread as a whole (which I've also enjoyed, especially tyler's open-mindedness and verve) is to highly recommend to folks the Jim McLean video series on Hogan. We've discussed it at length here on Golfwrx, but there are some shots and some pretty keen insights from McLean on there...one of which is the rear view footage of Hogan where one can see clear as day the great daylight (ie, width) that he created in the backswing.

[svsvincenzo]

The L arm will still be prevented from further getting closer to the R shoulder. IMO the best solution is to really put the upper L arm (triceps and biceps) really ABOVE the chest. This will allow the L arm to "pass thru" or bypass the side of the chest/pecs.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1340375607' post='5148566']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340331723' post='5145990']
Been enjoying this thread from the beginning. The discussions about pec and arm development prompted me to comment. I did not start playing golf until age 25 (44 now) and was an athlete and bodybuilder for years prior. My muscularity has greatly influenced (limited/restricted) my swing. I was a self taught 6 hc and paid little attention to swing mechanics prior to joining Golfwrx. I began following the Slicefixer (Geoff Jones) 9-3 thread last year and doing the drills. I even went to see Geoff in Texarkana last Fall. Generally speaking, Geoff teaches a Hogan-type swing. Since then I have come down to damn near scratch. My current hc (with a shoulder impingement that is being surgically repaired on July 11th) is 1.8. Here is my swing:


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp[/media]


You can see that my left arm breaks down significantly, and it used to actually be quite worse. This is a result of having a sense of internal timing that wants to be long an fluid (like Couples or Els), but a body type that won't allow it. My clubface is also shut at the top, largely the result of an inside takeaway and improper wrist set. When I was bigger it seemed like the only way I could turn fully was to swing the clubhead around me and let it pulll my shoulders/torso under my chin. When I was bigger I used to lose even more spine angle as I rose to turn my left delt under my chin. Anyway, I thought you all might find it interesting, cause it certainly isn't pretty.


Regarding Hogan's secret, I think it is the connection of the upper left arm to the torso through impact combined with the bent right wrist at impact pushing through to the left with the pad of the right hand index finger. His pivot and rotation are a given, but this is a very unique action IMO.
[/quote]

8iron is probably going to flame me for this (but I really don't care), but that swing kind of reminds me of Morad guys. Kind of funny, considering you did a lot of your own work and have seen Geoff. Guess that is why they say Geoff is like "Redneck Morad" ... Nice swing. If it is space you are looking for with your bigger developed chest, look for the info on drill where you are taking the club back down the line for 15-18" before you rotate the left arm. W/o face on I can't be sure, but IMO you are over connecting the right bicept at the start causing you to come inside (you just need right armpit connection). A little bit of space should give you some more room, and Geoff's 15" drill should help, but hey what do I know?
[/quote]

Thanks for the response and suggestion. I do work on the 12"-15" take away drill, but have thus far focused more on the pivot and release than the takeaway. Curious cause I don't know much about it, but what elements make it look like MORAD?

[dpb5031]

[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1340381280' post='5149204']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340331723' post='5145990']
Been enjoying this thread from the beginning. The discussions about pec and arm development prompted me to comment. I did not start playing golf until age 25 (44 now) and was an athlete and bodybuilder for years prior. My muscularity has greatly influenced (limited/restricted) my swing. I was a self taught 6 hc and paid little attention to swing mechanics prior to joining Golfwrx. I began following the Slicefixer (Geoff Jones) 9-3 thread last year and doing the drills. I even went to see Geoff in Texarkana last Fall. Generally speaking, Geoff teaches a Hogan-type swing. Since then I have come down to damn near scratch. My current hc (with a shoulder impingement that is being surgically repaired on July 11th) is 1.8. Here is my swing:


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp[/media]


You can see that my left arm breaks down significantly, and it used to actually be quite worse. This is a result of having a sense of internal timing that wants to be long an fluid (like Couples or Els), but a body type that won't allow it. My clubface is also shut at the top, largely the result of an inside takeaway and improper wrist set. When I was bigger it seemed like the only way I could turn fully was to swing the clubhead around me and let it pulll my shoulders/torso under my chin. When I was bigger I used to lose even more spine angle as I rose to turn my left delt under my chin. Anyway, I thought you all might find it interesting, cause it certainly isn't pretty.


Regarding Hogan's secret, I think it is the connection of the upper left arm to the torso through impact combined with the bent right wrist at impact pushing through to the left with the pad of the right hand index finger. His pivot and rotation are a given, but this is a very unique action IMO.
[/quote]

Nice action dpb. Love your impact...great leverage, compression, stability. You're definitely figuring out [i]your[/i] way with Geoff's help. I guarantee you that you and Geoff are on the right path, nonetheless, I'll throw in my two cents and recommend that you look at videos of Hogan, Spider, etc from the rear and compare to yourself. When I did this (think Geoff and I might have done as well, can't remember) and really looked at the backswings I saw that I wasn't creating anywhere near the width that they did. My main fault, I felt was a too-inside, suck-behind takeaway. I kind of get the idea that you might see something similar. Amazing to me to see Hogan actually create space between right elbow and torso on the backswing/takeaway, when all I had been taught (prior to seeing Geoff mind you) up to that time about Hogan was to just glue the arms to the chest...

Cheers,
Tim

P.S. My contribution to the thread as a whole (which I've also enjoyed, especially tyler's open-mindedness and verve) is to highly recommend to folks the Jim McLean video series on Hogan. We've discussed it at length here on Golfwrx, but there are some shots and some pretty keen insights from McLean on there...one of which is the rear view footage of Hogan where one can see clear as day the great daylight (ie, width) that he created in the backswing.
[/quote]


You know, Geoff has been terrific. He recognized my limitations and told me first thing that my swing would never look like Spider's or Hogan's. I really love his teachings because he provides you with a blueprint to follow. There is no doubt, follow it and you will improve.

The take away has always been a struggle for me. I can get it right (in slow motion) when I take it back in one piece for the first foot or so while also turning back my right hip. From there I do best when I **** my wrists upwards, add some late left forearm rotation, while still turning deep. In a DTL view (sorry I don't have a video) I am able to keep it on plane decently and it looks ok. The problem is that I can't play with it yet. The wrap araound take-away is so grooved that I feel disconnected and can get out of sequence if I [b]don't[/b] do it. I also feel like I am not turning as deeply when I take it back the proper way. I suppose it is just going to take thousands of reps to get the proper take away to feel natural. I am also curious about the right arm perhaps being over-connected? If I remember correctly, in a DTL view it actually looks like my DS plane is slightly over my backswing plane, although it doesn't feel like it to me.

I really wish I had a video of my "old" swing from 2 years ago. Man, I had a big lateral move off of the ball, tons of arm run-on, collapsed left arm at the top, and a down the line "slinging" release. I hooked everything in the bag, even wedges (like Bubba's in the Master's playoff)! After I read Slice's stuff, I finally understood conceptually what I was supposed to do, and I set out to do it. I got down to a solid 4 and was making great progress on my own before seeing him, and much better since. In my view, Hogan's secret has all to do with the way he releases the club. The Hogan (leveraged) release, staying close to the body and following, but not swinging past the rotating core, feels so much different. It is a very powerful and gratifying feeling.

I LOVE watching Hogan videos. I swear, if I watch him before going out to play, I really do hit it that much better.

[k001k47]

dpb5031, you swing well with that bummed shoulder! What stands out to me is that, going into transition, it looks like your arms get a little 'stuck', behind your body. However, you bring them back into a textbook impact position (which is really all that matters in the end, right?); This tells me that you've got a good set of hands and coordination. I'm not going to give you a bunch of really technical stuff (everyone else does that well), just a tip: feel more like your arms are in front of your chest throughout the swing, and let gravity and centrifugal force do the work (although the latter bit might put some stress on that shoulder...I am no physician). Good luck with the surgery, and have fun out on the course.
[b]EDIT[/b]: the more I watch the swing, the more I feel like I'm talking bs... If I could watch the swing in person, I'd be more comfortable giving advice. Although, you probably wouldn't trust me with your swing were we to meet.

As far as the secret goes. . . It was no secret that Hogan loved to practice.

[Colum]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340331723' post='5145990']

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp[/media]
[/quote]

Out of interest you could try swinging with the arms in a much higher position at the top of the backswing, see how that goes

[dpb5031]

[quote name='Colum' timestamp='1340389123' post='5150024']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340331723' post='5145990']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp[/media]
[/quote]

Out of interest you could try swinging with the arms in a much higher position at the top of the backswing, see how that goes
[/quote]

That's the thing I was talking about in my first post here about the limitations I have due to my body type. I can't really get my hands into a much higher position. I think if I were to make some improvements in my take-away and the way I set my wrists, that I could get wider, but I doubt that it would be possible for me to get those hands much higher at the top without breaking down. Matter of fact, if I get wider, I may not even get them as high as I do now. In any event, I'll experimient...

...I always admired those high hands of Davis Love at the top, but I'm no Davis Love, lol!

[nfbandon]

Haven't posted over here much, but I am one of those SITD guys that seem to get bashed a bit on this thread. I am after Hogan dynamics. Am working through Erickson's Advanced Ballstriking Program currently. So here is my swing, what do you guys think:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw[/url]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340393745' post='5150472']
Haven't posted over here much, but I am one of those SITD guys that seem to get bashed a bit on this thread. I am after Hogan dynamics. Am working through Erickson's Advanced Ballstriking Program currently. So here is my swing, what do you guys think:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw[/media]
[/quote]

Outstanding movement nfbandon guy. Glad you posted your swing! Sometimes its hard for us perfectionists to put ourselves out there.

I am suprised I have never heard of you before. Looks like a lot of ground pressures happening there. good stuff!

[Colum]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340391172' post='5150218']
That's the thing I was talking about in my first post here about the limitations I have due to my body type. I can't really get my hands into a much higher position. I think if I were to make some improvements in my take-away and the way I set my wrists, that I could get wider, but I doubt that it would be possible for me to get those hands much higher at the top without breaking down. Matter of fact, if I get wider, I may not even get them as high as I do now. In any event, I'll experimient...

...I always admired those high hands of Davis Love at the top, but I'm no Davis Love, lol!
[/quote]
I guess you have experimented with standing closer to the ball or bending a liitle more at the hips to get the hands higher. My impression from the clip is the hands could be higher if flexibility allowed.

[Timanator]

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340393745' post='5150472']
Haven't posted over here much, but I am one of those SITD guys that seem to get bashed a bit on this thread. I am after Hogan dynamics. Am working through Erickson's Advanced Ballstriking Program currently. So here is my swing, what do you guys think:

[/quote]

Great swing Brandon. A tad much holding off on the swing through?

[dpb5031]

[quote name='Colum' timestamp='1340395674' post='5150672']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340391172' post='5150218']
That's the thing I was talking about in my first post here about the limitations I have due to my body type. I can't really get my hands into a much higher position. I think if I were to make some improvements in my take-away and the way I set my wrists, that I could get wider, but I doubt that it would be possible for me to get those hands much higher at the top without breaking down. Matter of fact, if I get wider, I may not even get them as high as I do now. In any event, I'll experimient...

...I always admired those high hands of Davis Love at the top, but I'm no Davis Love, lol!
[/quote]
I guess you have experimented with standing closer to the ball or bending a liitle more at the hips to get the hands higher. My impression from the clip is the hands could be higher if flexibility allowed.
[/quote]

I think the issue was pointed out earlier in that I keep my right arm pinned to my side throughout the backswing. I got into that move because I used to actually have too much lift (fake turn) and arm run-on. Now I feel very disconnected if I allow that right arm to separate. I will experiment.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1340395890' post='5150696']
[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340393745' post='5150472']
Haven't posted over here much, but I am one of those SITD guys that seem to get bashed a bit on this thread. I am after Hogan dynamics. Am working through Erickson's Advanced Ballstriking Program currently. So here is my swing, what do you guys think:

[/quote]

Great swing Brandon. A tad much holding off on the swing through?
[/quote]

I thought the same thing. I'm no expert, and the swing looks awesome, but I noticed that "hold off" also and it looked very unusual. It is so solid through impact, why not let it go after that?

[k001k47]

Good lag

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340393745' post='5150472']
So here is my swing, what do you guys think:
[/quote]

[ej002]

Are you working on module 3? Isn't that the holdoff module?

I like it though.

[tylerdurden]

Gary player was such a stud. He looks so good through impact.

Was he one of the greatest ballstrikers ever?? I think he should get more love. Not enough youtube footage of him. SOOOOOO good through impact.

Could be doing anything on a Friday night and I'm watching Hogan and player video and doing mirror work. I have issues for sure.

[tylerdurden]

This is the video that has me all worked up [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRlcluBc294&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRlcluBc294&feature=relmfu[/url]

[k001k47]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1340423460' post='5152930']
This is the video that has me all worked up
[/quote]

Excellent vid. Thanks for sharing.

[dairic]

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340393745' post='5150472']
Haven't posted over here much, but I am one of those SITD guys that seem to get bashed a bit on this thread. I am after Hogan dynamics. Am working through Erickson's Advanced Ballstriking Program currently. So here is my swing, what do you guys think:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw[/media]
[/quote]

Super Slotting...very very nice

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340393745' post='5150472']
Haven't posted over here much, but I am one of those SITD guys that seem to get bashed a bit on this thread. I am after Hogan dynamics. Am working through Erickson's Advanced Ballstriking Program currently. So here is my swing, what do you guys think:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw[/url]
[/quote]

Best sitd swing I've ever seen. Nice

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340393745' post='5150472']
Haven't posted over here much, but I am one of those SITD guys that seem to get bashed a bit on this thread. I am after Hogan dynamics. Am working through Erickson's Advanced Ballstriking Program currently. So here is my swing, what do you guys think:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNmux8x2MLw[/url]
[/quote]

Is that your newest video?

[k001k47]

[left]Man I can't get over that vintage video. Golf use to be so different to watch, in a good way. I wish they still showed stuff like that late at night on the golf channel. I wish they'd air this match, even though both players were well passed their prime:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrPOVOka2rQ&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrPOVOka2rQ[/url][/left]

[Swisstrader98]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1340422813' post='5152894']
Gary player was such a stud. He looks so good through impact.

Was he one of the greatest ballstrikers ever?? I think he should get more love. Not enough youtube footage of him. SOOOOOO good through impact.

Could be doing anything on a Friday night and I'm watching Hogan and player video and doing mirror work. I have issues for sure.
[/quote]
Never saw some of that footage before on Player, but why does he lift his left foot in the backswing?

[nfbandon]

SVSV,

Not my most recent swing but one I like.

Was hoping together 8i's take, since you speak highly of him.

To someone that ask, I was in mod 3 of ABS when I filmed that swing. I am now in mod 4, and continue to work in the Superslotting elective module.

I suppose you could call this a hold off release, but I don't think of it that way because I gave it everything. Just learning a way to release where I am not rolling or fighting rolling because my arms are so pinned to the pivot.

[PingG10guy]

Think I'm taking a break from the forums. Good luck to you guys.

[tylerdurden]

me too. The hell with you guys!!

[Timanator]

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340485071' post='5155152']
I suppose you could call this a hold off release, but I don't think of it that way because I gave it everything. Just learning a way to release where I am not rolling or fighting rolling because my arms are so pinned to the pivot.
[/quote]

Brandon, I'd love to have that swing of yours.

I guess some of us Slicefixer students just wonder about the hard hold off of the face instead of the natural release.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340397749' post='5150876']
[quote name='Colum' timestamp='1340395674' post='5150672']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1340391172' post='5150218']
That's the thing I was talking about in my first post here about the limitations I have due to my body type. I can't really get my hands into a much higher position. I think if I were to make some improvements in my take-away and the way I set my wrists, that I could get wider, but I doubt that it would be possible for me to get those hands much higher at the top without breaking down. Matter of fact, if I get wider, I may not even get them as high as I do now. In any event, I'll experimient...

...I always admired those high hands of Davis Love at the top, but I'm no Davis Love, lol!
[/quote]
I guess you have experimented with standing closer to the ball or bending a liitle more at the hips to get the hands higher. My impression from the clip is the hands could be higher if flexibility allowed.
[/quote]

I think the issue was pointed out earlier in that I keep my right arm pinned to my side throughout the backswing. I got into that move because I used to actually have too much lift (fake turn) and arm run-on. Now I feel very disconnected if I allow that right arm to separate. I will experiment.
[/quote]

Played this weekend in our club's member/member. I worked on adding some width and letting my right arm separate a little on the takeaway. The results were fantastic. I hit it so solid and struck some of the best feeling iron shots I think I've ever hit. Yesterday was 27 holes (three 9s of various formats) and today was 18 holes team aggregate. I hit it beautifully yesterday and my 10 hc partner and I won the 9 hole scramble portion with a gross score of 6 under (net 28). I shot 71 gross today on my on ball. We took second place overall and won about $560 each. I had a nice feeling of "heavy arms dropping" in transition that I was able to keep going all day. Thanks for helping me out guys!

[34golf]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1340553895' post='5158358']
[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1340485071' post='5155152']
I suppose you could call this a hold off release, but I don't think of it that way because I gave it everything. Just learning a way to release where I am not rolling or fighting rolling because my arms are so pinned to the pivot.
[/quote]

Brandon, I'd love to have that swing of yours.

I guess some of us Slicefixer students just wonder about the hard hold off of the face instead of the natural release.
[/quote]

I think the abs style release is purely pivot driven postimpact with no clubface roll or hands crossing over post impact and with the clubface more square to the shoulder rotation/spine tilt all the way through, and the clubface not rolled over when it exits above the left shoulder on the through swing. I would say Hunters swing is a pretty good example from hip high to hip high but then he has a bit more clubface rotation into his finish.