I absolutely did not figure out Hogan's secret about 30 weekends ago

[k001k47]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1340217274' post='5136718']
Hogan SWUNG the club from the get go. His "backswing speed" varied upon how much inertia he initiated the swing with. The harder he wanted to hit a drive, the faster the backswing appeared because the swing was initaited with more energy.
[/quote]

I like that bit: reminds me of the way Hogan, Mickelson, and various longdrive competitors really whip that club back with such vindiction when they want to smash one. I know I'm guilty of taking the club back too tentatively. It is a swing after all, not a position stencil connect the dots type of thing.

Alright, I think I'm done talking about my crazy swing thoughts. The way things are going, I won't even be able to take the club back this evening without over thinking.

[SwingNV]

Also, wanted to add: The defintion of irony- claiming the Mexico footage was a poor example because it was in slow motion, then reply with a video of Adam Scott making a 22 second golf swing....Brilliant! LOL!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1340196807' post='5134470']
k001k47, I like you so please take this as more of a response to the post by Mizuno Joe re: Slicefixer (aka Geoff Jones) teaching. To say that k001k47's swing looks like a slicefixer swing is to say that VJ Singh looks like Hunter Mahan. I am impressed with k001k47's backswing and turn, especially for being self taught. However, the essence of Geoff's theory is that from hip-high to hip-high through impact one gets quickly to the left pivot point, one never stalls the pivot, one attacks with a leveraged (ie, bent) right arm and wrist, the handle of the club turns a "corner" on an arc, and the clubhead enters and exits on an arc (ie, is very square to the arc for a long time). I won't belabor the issues here, but koo1k47 definitely does not do most of these keys...looks like a noticeable hang back on the right side, a very strong and early "cross-over" release, a noticeable pivot stall around impact, and down-the-line chase. The money shot for a Slicefixer style swing would be several frames just after impact. At this point for a Slicefixer technique, the right elbow is very near to the right hip (not the case above), the right arm and right wrist are flexed (ie, leveraged in Geoff terms...also not the case above), the handle of the club and right arm would look like 12:20 on an analog clock (koo1k47 very much is an example of a cross-over release with the clock at 12:40), the handle would start to rotate around start turning the corner (ie, disappearing out of sight...unlike above where the handle inverts and points back at the camera), and the clubhead would be following a shallow arc back and to the inside of the target line (what some call, low and left...unlike above where the clubhead chases out and down-the-line). Despite the impressive self-taught backswing tendencies of k001k47, the overall swing is not Slicefixer in its essence.

Cheers,
Tim
[/quote]

I don't know how you see an early cross-over, pivot stall, and down-the-line chase at that video speed, especially in the wedge swings. Look at the finish, the hands haven't even crossed over by then, much less early - the left hand is still to the left of the right. The camera doesn't look to me to be down the line, but behind and slightly off to the right, but even then the hands appear to be going well left just past impact - certainly not chasing down the line.

[Smash Factors]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1340219649' post='5137034']
Also, wanted to add: The defintion of irony- claiming the Mexico footage was a poor example because it was in slow motion, then reply with a video of Adam Scott making a 22 second golf swing....Brilliant! LOL!
[/quote]

You missed the point. I don't have to show a swing in real-time to point out that it is virtually flawless. I just gave an example for people to look at.

I understand the desire that people have to uncover the hidden secret in Hogan's swing....I get it. But, if people have the thought in their head that Hogan has the "Perfect" golf swing and that if somehow they could just copy it (Or discover the secret), then they will be shooting like Hogan, [u]THEY LIVE IN A FANTASY LAND. [/u]

As I said before, Hogan did not have the "Perfect" golf swing. He was an amazing ball striker and shot shaper. Why? Because he discovered the perfect swing for HIM, not a universally perfect golf swing for everyone.

Take what you can from Hogans swing.....like Nicklaus..and Tiger...and Player...and Arnie...and Bolt...Mac...and many other top ball strikers have. If it works for you, great. But if your trying to unravel the riddle of what many people consider to be the holy grail of golf swings so that you can use a carbon-copy of it for yourself you are wasting your time. There is no "Perfect" swing....only a way to perfect (Or get as close to perfection of) your own swing.

[tylerdurden]

Now I remember that quote about not arguing with fools because people from a distance can't tell who is who. The fact that you think Adam Scott's swing is "virtually flawless" says everything.

[k001k47]

Rough day out there. . . Gotta keep grinding

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1340224065' post='5137528']
[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1340219649' post='5137034']
Also, wanted to add: The defintion of irony- claiming the Mexico footage was a poor example because it was in slow motion, then reply with a video of Adam Scott making a 22 second golf swing....Brilliant! LOL!
[/quote]

You missed the point. I don't have to show a swing in real-time to point out that it is virtually flawless. I just gave an example for people to look at.

I understand the desire that people have to uncover the hidden secret in Hogan's swing....I get it. But, if people have the thought in their head that Hogan has the "Perfect" golf swing and that if somehow they could just copy it (Or discover the secret), then they will be shooting like Hogan, [u]THEY LIVE IN A FANTASY LAND. [/u]

As I said before, Hogan did not have the "Perfect" golf swing. He was an amazing ball striker and shot shaper. Why? Because he discovered the perfect swing for HIM, not a universally perfect golf swing for everyone.

Take what you can from Hogans swing.....like Nicklaus..and Tiger...and Player...and Arnie...and Bolt...Mac...and many other top ball strikers have. If it works for you, great. But if your trying to unravel the riddle of what many people consider to be the holy grail of golf swings so that you can use a carbon-copy of it for yourself you are wasting your time. There is no "Perfect" swing....only a way to perfect (Or get as close to perfection of) your own swing.
[/quote]

I'm still waiting for you to point out what's not perfect in Hogan's swing...c'mon, take my dare...you might learn something and abandon that crappy inconsistent Scott swing..he's been on top for a while...Hogan gave him 10 years go-ahead handicap you know...lol

So, what? C'mon, we're for learning in here...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1340210363' post='5135912']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1340111676' post='5127358']
I don't believe in a secret anymore. He just did everything perfectly.
[/quote]

What it all boils down to is that Hogan's swing is not something that we should try to copy (Or teach).

Not likely you will find an instructor who's approach is to get his students swinging just like Hogan.

Look at Hogans swing. Is it orthodox? The answer is no; it goes against many basic swing fundamentals.

Does Hogan have good tempo? No, he does not. It is a very fast and choppy swing. Put a Medicus in Hogans hand and he would not be able to swing it. Wayyyy too fast in the back-swing.

Look at his swing plane. It's very shallow and to some extent laid-off. Is that how we want to be swinging? With the left arm low and below the right shoulder at the top of the swing?

Look at the similarity between his driver swing and iron swing. They are almost identical. This is not typical. The driver swing is usually very different from irons. Again, Hogan goes against the grain here by swinging all clubs the same.

Look at this video and tell me the difference between driver and iron swings.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSAAvhukTiE[/media]

The short of it is that Hogan's swing worked for him, but it does not work for everyone.

So, to say that he did everything perfect is really not accurate. It is a swing that worked for him. He applied basic fundamentals: Posture, grip, alignment, ball position, waggle, follow-through, etc....but had his own way of putting it all together. It's not a swing that you should carbon-copy. Take his concepts and put them into your own swing.
[/quote]

You said shallow swing plane...

No it is not...his L arm is shallow relative to the shoulders, but not relative to the ground and swing plane...just looks like it is for less than full swings and because his L arm is in line with his shoulder line...look in here:

[attachment=1221492:gifhoganmexicoquickswing.jpg]

In fact, if you consider his hand path from setup to top to impact, it is quite upright con-sidering his height of 5'9" at most in some accounts, many accounts him as just 5'7"...Scott is a 6-footer...that's 3-5 inches difference. That's 6 to 10 clubs difference...lol

You said the iron and driver swings are identical...yes the movements are the same, but setup for obvious reasons are bit different...and if they're identical, ain't that better? That means he will be swinging exactly the same for every swing...consistency...there is no need for him to adjust each of the planes that he is using because he had fixed the floor limit of his clubhead plane exactly to the ground/ball..

IMO, you didn't and haven't studied Hogan enough, or you did but you went nuts figuring it out...lol

By the way, Scott is a total underachiever, IMO...excellent swing though...Hogan is exactly the opposite--an overachiever...

[Smash Factors]

You said shallow swing plane...

 

No it is not...his L arm is shallow relative to the shoulders, but not relative to the ground and swing plane...just looks like it is for less than full swings and because his L arm is in line with his shoulder line...look in here:

 

 

 

In fact, if you consider his hand path from setup to top to impact, it is quite upright con-sidering his height of 5'9" at most in some accounts, many accounts him as just 5'7"...Scott is a 6-footer...that's 3-5 inches difference. That's 6 to 10 clubs difference...lol

 

 

I dont know what to tell ya buddy. Hogan had a shallow swing...not upright at all...despite his height or any other stuff you are talking about.

 

 

Here is an example of an upright swing so that you can see the difference. The is Fred Couples coming in at a towering 5'11. Dont tell me a couple inches makes all the difference.

 

 

You said the iron and driver swings are identical...yes the movements are the same, but setup for obvious reasons are bit different...and if they're identical, ain't that better? That means he will be swinging exactly the same for every swing...consistency...there is no need for him to adjust each of the planes that he is using because he had fixed the floor limit of his clubhead plane exactly to the ground/ball..

 

Spoken like a true amateur.

 

One of the biggest mistakes that many beginners make is to try and swing their woods the same way they swing their irons. In golf, we separate the irons from the woods; they are two different animals requiring two different swings. To try and blend it all together into one swing for all clubs is not something that is taught. The irons are handled one way; the woods another.

[svsvincenzo]

Steve, I assume you are an educated fellow, you cannot fool everybody in here...

You used a Hogan driver pic that has been gravely stretched horizontally and then aniron/wedge swing that either is a 3/4 swing or 3/4s way into the DS to say that Hogan is upright? And the man is quite bent over for a small guy. What will a total beginner wanting to learn Hogan get from that? You will miseducate big time.

Here's one for you to digest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Here are unstretched videos of a truly full swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F6bR9UGEvs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And what do you say about that Top pic of Hogan in Mexico footage I posted earlier? That flat? And which is flat? You seem to base flatness or uprightness on the L arm position alone? Like that 3/4 way into DS of Hogan you posted, so that was flat?...

By the way, that Shell stretched pic sequence, what shot is he hitting in there? What shot is he hitting when he makes his L hand more inside and lower?

[PingG10guy]

You said shallow swing plane...

 

No it is not...his L arm is shallow relative to the shoulders, but not relative to the ground and swing plane...just looks like it is for less than full swings and because his L arm is in line with his shoulder line...look in here:

 

 

 

In fact, if you consider his hand path from setup to top to impact, it is quite upright con-sidering his height of 5'9" at most in some accounts, many accounts him as just 5'7"...Scott is a 6-footer...that's 3-5 inches difference. That's 6 to 10 clubs difference...lol

 

 

I dont know what to tell ya buddy. Hogan had a shallow swing...not upright at all...despite his height or any other stuff you are talking about.

 

 

Here is an example of an upright swing so that you can see the difference. The is Fred Couples coming in at a towering 5'11. Dont tell me a couple inches makes all the difference.

 

 

You said the iron and driver swings are identical...yes the movements are the same, but setup for obvious reasons are bit different...and if they're identical, ain't that better? That means he will be swinging exactly the same for every swing...consistency...there is no need for him to adjust each of the planes that he is using because he had fixed the floor limit of his clubhead plane exactly to the ground/ball..

 

Spoken like a true amateur.

 

One of the biggest mistakes that many beginners make is to try and swing their woods the same way they swing their irons. In golf, we separate the irons from the woods; they are two different animals requiring two different swings. To try and blend it all together into one swing for all clubs is not something that is taught. The irons are handled one way; the woods another.

 

...okay. A flat swing plane for all intensive purposes is "perfect" because it can take advantage of angular momentum (ie a much more consistent club face through impact than an upright swing/rollover release). The taller a player is the more different this will look and it's not a one size fits all.

 

The reason why upright swings have an extremely different driver/iron swing (IMO) is because they have to manipulate the setup and release for better launch parameters. If you swing flat enough to take advantage of angular momentum and have enough handspeed to hit your driver then why would you want a totally different swing to tee off with? As long as you have the correct launch, spin, and ball speed then you're golden.

 

And great job on the photos of Hogan with 2 completely different camera angles.

 

And another great job on limiting the possibilities to what "they" teach; and the fact that "they" dont teach it that way. If what "they" teach is so awesome then shouldnt you be out winning tournaments and not blogging online?

 

And a final great job to call someone amateur just because they dont see the golfswing the way you do. In any line of work I think it's much more respectable to research and develop opinions based on raw data than to adopt a way of thinking because that's the norm. There's nothing lazier than copying someone elses opinion just to stay in your comfort zone.

 

Maybe we got to technical for you? Stevie-poo got brain freeze? Just keep re-reading the thread until you figure it out. You can do it.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Whenever you guys argue about flat, shallow, or upright, it would be nice if you could point this to a bodypart or something. Just saying its a "flat swing" is waaaay too general.

For me, Hogan's swing is upright.....and I'm always only referring to the [b]clubshaft[/b].

Upright, upright, upright. Mine is still too flat, flat, flat.

[ej002]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1340262079' post='5140470']One of the biggest mistakes that many beginners make is to try and swing their woods the same way they swing their irons. In golf, we separate the irons from the woods; they are two different animals requiring two different swings. To try and blend it all together into one swing for all clubs is not something that is taught. The irons are handled one way; the woods another.
[/quote]

^^Spoken like a true amateur.

Hogan's swing wasn't flat - flat would indicate under plane and a swing flaw. He just swung on lower planes, these lower planes, we all know contributed to his excellent ballstriking. Nonetheless, we are all guilty of using the term "flat", but I just don't think it really the right way to describe it.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1340285039' post='5141218']
Whenever you guys argue about flat, shallow, or upright, it would be nice if you could point this to a bodypart or something. Just saying its a "flat swing" is waaaay too general.

For me, Hogan's swing is upright.....and I'm always only referring to the [b]clubshaft[/b].

Upright, upright, upright. Mine is still too flat, flat, flat.
[/quote]

At the top, hands near or below TSP (turning shoulder plane) when the shoulder turn is 90* to the spine. Thats what Im going for. aka where the right shoulder is at the top of the backswing from dtl

Your shoulders dont really turn 90 to the spine. Your left shoulder gets a little high early which can lay off the club and make your hands do funny stuff in transition (when I do it I get steep really really bad). It's kinda like when you lose your balance while walking; your hands go out infront so you dont fall on your face IMO. Well in my experience if the turn isnt controlled and correct then I lose my hands and control of the clubface at the top as a side effect. 9 times out of 10 if the left shoulder gets high then the head moves somewhere it isnt supposed to (how you chin up from dtl in your vids)

[chrisgilly09]

The reason most instructors dont teach Hogan is because they dont have a clue how he did it; the ones who do aint givin it out for free, except for a few great gentlemen here.

Lemme ask you this Steve: Do you feel it was just circumstance that yer man Adam started playing better once he tilted his neck down at address? Hogan did that for a reason...

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1340294787' post='5142394']
The reason most instructors dont teach Hogan is because they dont have a clue how he did it; the ones who do aint givin it out for free, except for a few great gentlemen here.

Lemme ask you this Steve: Do you feel it was just circumstance that yer man Adam started playing better once he tilted his neck down at address? Hogan did that for a reason...
[/quote]

Funny that Scott started playing better a couple of years ago when he changed his posture to a more hoganlike one!

Like I wrote earlier, some people don't understand, don't want to and never will. Pointless to argue with them.

[k001k47]

Weren't Hogan's woods bored through [b]much [/b]flatter than standard (like his irons were bent)?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1340292597' post='5142098']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1340285039' post='5141218']
Whenever you guys argue about flat, shallow, or upright, it would be nice if you could point this to a bodypart or something. Just saying its a "flat swing" is waaaay too general.

For me, Hogan's swing is upright.....and I'm always only referring to the [b]clubshaft[/b].

Upright, upright, upright. Mine is still too flat, flat, flat.
[/quote]

At the top, hands near or below TSP (turning shoulder plane) when the shoulder turn is 90* to the spine. Thats what Im going for. aka where the right shoulder is at the top of the backswing from dtl

Your shoulders dont really turn 90 to the spine. Your left shoulder gets a little high early which can lay off the club and make your hands do funny stuff in transition (when I do it I get steep really really bad). It's kinda like when you lose your balance while walking; your hands go out infront so you dont fall on your face IMO. Well in my experience if the turn isnt controlled and correct then I lose my hands and control of the clubface at the top as a side effect. 9 times out of 10 if the left shoulder gets high then the head moves somewhere it isnt supposed to (how you chin up from dtl in your vids)
[/quote]

Yep, I see and feel my chin/head lift. My stinking left pec is in the way. Years of bodybuilding was a good thing in some ways, but in this golf swing I'm tryin to build, it sucks.

Lol, tembo calls it a muscular boob!! lololol

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='k001k47' timestamp='1340298532' post='5142762']
Weren't Hogan's woods bored through [b]much [/b]flatter than standard (like his irons were bent)?
[/quote]

I don't know but I'd imagine so. someone here took a picture of his 1 iron, overlayed a compass on it and found the lie angle to be 51 deg.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1340301905' post='5143110']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1340292597' post='5142098']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1340285039' post='5141218']
Whenever you guys argue about flat, shallow, or upright, it would be nice if you could point this to a bodypart or something. Just saying its a "flat swing" is waaaay too general.

For me, Hogan's swing is upright.....and I'm always only referring to the [b]clubshaft[/b].

Upright, upright, upright. Mine is still too flat, flat, flat.
[/quote]

At the top, hands near or below TSP (turning shoulder plane) when the shoulder turn is 90* to the spine. Thats what Im going for. aka where the right shoulder is at the top of the backswing from dtl

Your shoulders dont really turn 90 to the spine. Your left shoulder gets a little high early which can lay off the club and make your hands do funny stuff in transition (when I do it I get steep really really bad). It's kinda like when you lose your balance while walking; your hands go out infront so you dont fall on your face IMO. Well in my experience if the turn isnt controlled and correct then I lose my hands and control of the clubface at the top as a side effect. 9 times out of 10 if the left shoulder gets high then the head moves somewhere it isnt supposed to (how you chin up from dtl in your vids)
[/quote]

Yep, I see and feel my chin/head lift. My stinking left pec is in the way. Years of bodybuilding was a good thing in some ways, but in this golf swing I'm tryin to build, it sucks.

Lol, tembo calls it a muscular boob!! lololol
[/quote]

Put hands/arms out infront of you. Press your wrists (or elbows) together until your arms are straight. Then settle into your address position. I used to have the same problem but quit going heavy on chest workouts so they would incur a reduction.

Hogan was was flat chested. Its your only shot at getting close IMO

EDIT: or tilt sooner (borrow some stack n tilt)

[tylerdurden]

Wait do you guys really think you need small chest to swing like Hogan? I love lifting and love going heavy, especially with chest. I need to shrink???

[Smash Factors]

I'm still waiting for you to point out what's not perfect in Hogan's swing...c'mon, take my dare...

 

Okay. How about the fact that Hogan had a tendency to over-swing the woods so far that the shaft pointed to the ground?

 

 

...okay. A flat swing plane for all intensive purposes is "perfect" because it can take advantage of angular momentum (ie a much more consistent club face through impact than an upright swing/rollover release). The taller a player is the more different this will look and it's not a one size fits all.

 

If that's the case, then why don't instructors advise their students to swing on a flat plane? The position that most instructors would prefer their student to achieve in the backswing typically looks like this:

 

 

Hogan himself knew that he had a shallow swing when he proposed the plane of glass. The arms cant go above the shoulders or the glass breaks.

 

 

And great job on the photos of Hogan with 2 completely different camera angles.

 

It does not matter. You can clearly see that the left arm is below the shoulder line.

[ej002]

Bird chest.

[k001k47]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1340302126' post='5143128']
I don't know but I'd imagine so. someone here took a picture of his 1 iron, overlayed a compass on it and found the lie angle to be 51 deg.
[/quote]

I wonder if having that proper lie angle had anything to do with his accuracy off the tee. You'd think club manufacturers would offer more lie angle options for their fairways since the soles are so much bigger than they use to be. Lie angles don't really affect less lofted clubs...but still, I don't like the idea of the heel of my fairway wood sliding through the turf.

[ej002]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1340303110' post='5143218']
Okay. How about the fact that Hogan had a tendency to over-swing the woods so far that the club head pointed to the ground?[

[b]its perfectly okay if he isnt over swinging. He doesn't get out of synch and has crazy (like 120*) of shoulder turn. If his woods didn't point at the ground, there would be a problem. [/b]

If that's the case, then why don't instructors advise their students to swing on a flat plane?
[b]B/c most teachers teach a cross over release. Not all have to be as low as HOgan, his posture has a lot to do with it, a taller person with more hip tilt will have higher hands.[/b]

Hogan himself knew that he had a shallow swing when he proposed the plane of glass. The arms cant go above the shoulders or the glass breaks.
[b]This essentially reduces dependance on timing, he gets to elbow plane in impact zone, why shift higher? Larger shift will require more timing to "drop it into the slot"? Why not jsut swing the backswing into the slot? From the top he can go 100%. Genius really...[/b]


[/quote]

[PingG10guy]

<p>[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1340302834' post='5143196']<br />
Wait do you guys really think you need small chest to swing like Hogan? I love lifting and love going heavy, especially with chest. I need to shrink???<br />
[/quote]<br />
<br />
Well not to turn it into a "whos got the biggest kahunas" contest but several years ago I had a 47" chest (and a little bit of belly). I lifted all the time and I couldnt move. It was terrible. So I got serious about the game and shrank the upper a little bit.  Check this out lol.  </p>
<p> </p>
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[svsvincenzo]

 

Okay. How about the fact that Hogan had a tendency to over-swing the woods so far that the shaft pointed to the ground?

 

 

If that's the case, then why don't instructors advise their students to swing on a flat plane? The position that most instructors would prefer their student to achieve in the backswing typically looks like this:

 

 

It does not matter. You can clearly see that the left arm is below the shoulder line.

 

The club pointing more to the ground instead of level/parallel to the ground doesn't mean Hogan over swung. It is just because he turned his shoulders more. Note that Hogan didn't disconnect the arms from his body even with that super long swing though...

 

People teach an upright L arm swing because they don't know how to swing that WHOLE L arm (that includes the L shoulder deltoids yo...) while keeping the arms connected to the armpits, especially the R armpit. Why would you want to disconnect the R armpit and then connect them again later in DS? So go on listen to those who tell you to swing that L arm upright so that you won't whiff or shank the ball and so that you won't hump the goat and/or get steep on the shaft due to an incoming over plane clubhead...lol...especially those who tell you to fire your hips...lol

 

Hogan figured out a way to still have the clubhead to be right on plane (not under plane and not over plane) even if he fired his hips hard to start the DS, which shallows or flattens the plane big time...the non-disconnected R arm means he doesn't have to slide and/or or create more 2nd/axist tilt to get that connection again in DS...so he was able to fire everything as early as possible right after transition...

 

Apologies if haven't been clear to you earlier...the fact that Hogan's L hand is below the shoulder plane or shoulder line or R shoulder on Top is just because he didn't turn his shoulders as much like the driver swing you posted above. So if in a half swing your L hand doesn't reach or brush the shoulder plane, you are flat?! Hope that's clearer...imagine yourself having a 3D mind and see if the driver pic above of Hogan (wherein the club points to the ground) his L hand is brushing the shoulder plane.

 

In any case, what's most important is the L deltoids/shoulder...Hogan's clearly goes down UNDER the shoulder plane...ALWAYS...and as pointed out by cgilly09, Hogan's neck tilt is way bent over...AND Hogan's upper thoracic is bent over as well (sorta like a hunchback)...try turning that flat yo...lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1340303126' post='5143220']
Bird chest.
[/quote]

If you have a big L chest/pec muscle, I think the more you should lift your L arm while standing up (prior to Setup), then slowly put the L arm down until it goes ON TOP of the L pec. If you have L big biceps and triceps, the more reason you should do this. This, btw, was what Schlee suggests as well. Helps very well also to prevent the L arm from going under plane. The chest sort of provides a floor limit. If you put the L arm on the side of the chest, it will pretty much obstruct the upward motion of the L arm in the BS resulting to a bit lower than natural position on Top, and in DS the L arm shifts down and/or out earlier and/or much more than ideal.

This may also contribute to the different looking Hogan swing...a good example of a swing different from Hogan even if you do Hogan's actions/dynamics is that one posted by k47. The R elbow and forearm will be more in front or in the middle of the torso/lungs/sternum because the L arm cannot go more across or nearer the R shoulder unless you bend the L arm.

The question is, any tips on how to reduce that L pec?...lol...seriously, is there any exercise to reduce the muscle mass? High reps per set? Wouldn't high reps just "harden" the muscle but won't reduce it? I think hardening it will exacerbate the problem.

[dpb5031]

Been enjoying this thread from the beginning. The discussions about pec and arm development prompted me to comment. I did not start playing golf until age 25 (44 now) and was an athlete and bodybuilder for years prior. My muscularity has greatly influenced (limited/restricted) my swing. I was a self taught 6 hc and paid little attention to swing mechanics prior to joining Golfwrx. I began following the Slicefixer (Geoff Jones) 9-3 thread last year and doing the drills. I even went to see Geoff in Texarkana last Fall. Generally speaking, Geoff teaches a Hogan-type swing. Since then I have come down to damn near scratch. My current hc (with a shoulder impingement that is being surgically repaired on July 11th) is 1.8. Here is my swing:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp


You can see that my left arm breaks down significantly, and it used to actually be quite worse. This is a result of having a sense of internal timing that wants to be long an fluid (like Couples or Els), but a body type that won't allow it. My clubface is also shut at the top, largely the result of an inside takeaway and improper wrist set. When I was bigger it seemed like the only way I could turn fully was to swing the clubhead around me and let it pulll my shoulders/torso under my chin. When I was bigger I used to lose even more spine angle as I rose to turn my left delt under my chin. Anyway, I thought you all might find it interesting, cause it certainly isn't pretty.


Regarding Hogan's secret, I think it is the connection of the upper left arm to the torso through impact combined with the bent right wrist at impact pushing through to the left with the pad of the right hand index finger. His pivot and rotation are a given, but this is a very unique action IMO.

[k001k47]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would never teach the above picture, but not because of the arm plane you're going on about. I am not a teacher; Your statement about teachers is true in this case.