GI & SGI irons OEM integrity issue

[Mcfly]

I think most will agree when it comes to irons, once you get below the 25 degree mark irons become more difficult to hit.  It’s harder to get them airborne and to get any kind of carry distance for slower swing speed players.  These are the same players who comprise the GI/SGI (game improvement/super game improvement) iron market.  When you look at the GI/SGI offerings from Ping, PXG, Callaway, Tour Edge, and every other manufacturer, I honestly believe they intentionally make clubs that players needing GI/SGI clubs can’t hit in hopes they will sell the set they just bought and buy a new set.  The loft of a Ping G730 five iron is now 21.5 degrees!!!  Why would they do that?  So players who can’t hit these ultra low lofted irons will sell the clubs they hoped would help their game and buy new clubs, only to sell those and repeat the cycle over and over.  For example, the 4 iron from most of the most notable OEMs in their SGI line is around 20 degrees. The five is 23 degrees and the six is 26 +/- a degree.  Again, Ping now has a 21.5 degree five iron!!!  They KNOW most players buying 730s can’t hit the five iron (or the six) and they’re fine with that.  Their version of planned obsolescence.  That said, most players in the GI/SGI market don’t get comfortable in their set until they reach the 7 iron.  It makes FAR MORE sense in GI/SGI lines to, begin the five iron at 26 degrees and go 26, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46, ending with a 50 degree gap wedge. If you’re about to say a 26 degree five iron wouldn’t go far enough, go lay down.  Get a hybrid or two for the gap between fairways and irons.  And go ahead and try to make an argument that players using game improvement irons wouldn’t love to have a current model set of irons with four degrees between clubs, five through gap.  The OEMs will NEVER do this since it would result in players actually being much more comfortable with their entire set of irons and keeping them for several seasons instead of becoming frustrated with super low lofted 4, 5, 6, and sometimes even 7 irons that they can’t hit resulting in selling their clubs to buy new ones over and over.  At the end of the day, the OEM club manufacturer doesn’t care any more about you than a car dealer, an insurance agent, or a building contractor.  It’s just another segment of the golf business with only a bare minimum of integrity.  Don’t agree?  You probably sell clubs for a living.

[mjf34g]

Its not as tough as you make it.  Just order your set six or seven iron down and fill the gaps with wedges and hybrids or higher lofted woods (seven and nine woods).  They aren't forcing you to purchase those five and six irons.  Quite focusing on the iron number and look at lofts. Sorry but I just don't get the argument. 

[Mcfly]

Most people would like at least 5/GW in their set, it is as tough as I make it, and you are probably in the club business. 

[North Butte]

@Mcfly,

 

The year 2004 just called and wants its discussion thread back.

[Mcfly]

2 minutes ago, North Butte said:

@Mcfly,

 

The year 2004 just called and wants its discussion thread back.

Didn’t mean to get into “your area.”  

[teedub21]

26 minutes ago, Mcfly said:

Most people would like at least 5/GW in their set, it is as tough as I make it, and you are probably in the club business. 

 

Bro, not tough at all.  I ordered the Ping i530's in 6-GW.  Also have the mizuno Pro 245's in 6-GW.  They will sell you what ever you want. 

[mjf34g]

2 minutes ago, teedub21 said:

 

Bro, not tough at all.  I ordered the Ping i530's in 6-GW.  Also have the mizuno Pro 245's in 6-GW.  They will sell you what ever you want. 

I think its an ego thing. He wants that five and six in the bag vs playing those sissy hybrids and higher lofted fwy's. LOL.

[Mcfly]

1 minute ago, teedub21 said:

 

Bro, not tough at all.  I ordered the Ping i530's in 6-GW.  Also have the mizuno Pro 245's in 6-GW.  They will sell you what ever you want. 

Good for you.  I guess you figured I didn’t know I could carry whatever set makeup I choose.  Wasn’t the point of the topic.  Thanks for the help.  

[Mcfly]

1 minute ago, mjf34g said:

I think its an ego thing. He wants that five and six in the bag vs playing those sissy hybrids and higher lofted fwy's. LOL.

Yeah, lol “Bro”.  

[vandyfan]

54 minutes ago, Mcfly said:

The loft of a Ping G730 five iron is now 21.5 degrees!!!  Why would they do that?

 

The shaft is shorter and the irons launch higher with lower CG relative to their stated loft (they also tend to spin less), at least in my experience. My peak height with a P790 7 iron at 30.5* was the same as my Ben Hogan PTxPro at 34*, it just went about 15 yds farther and spun less. 

 

Not all things are equal here and I would argue that while loft helps, the length of the shaft helps as well for center face contact. Matt Blois at Golf Liberty (youtube) did an interesting video about the loft question that you are posing here. 

 

 

[boggyman]

Wowwwwww…. as for the lofts you listed, with a 46* PW, that’s definitely more in line with a PLAYER’S CB. MOST folks playing a SGI iron does not have the strength OR swing speed to get a 2-5, or even a 6 iron over knee or head high off the ground anymore. Yes, lofts have gotten ridiculous over the years, it’s not too secret. I’ve still play a set of blades, 23-50 degrees of loft for 3-PW with no problem. Also a set of SGI Altitudes 3-PW which are what I’d call more standard lofts with a 44* PW, with a 7 wood. The Altitudes require less of me to do what I’m after with an iron, plus are easier on my old broke down body riddled with old MX injuries! OEMs are all about distance as are the younger crowd. People hit an iron and first thing you hear is, “how far did that go”,or, “man, that’s long”. Never how close or accurate they’re hitting them. Irons are all about accuracy, not distance, to me. Distance is  something one is blessed to have, and yes, Father Time will eventually catch up. 

[teedub21]

All this from a guy that has Ping G700 5-G irons in his signature.  Ok. 

[Mcfly]

2 minutes ago, boggyman said:

Wowwwwww…. as for the lofts you listed, with a 46* PW, that’s definitely more in line with a PLAYER’S CB. MOST folks playing a SGI iron does not have the strength OR swing speed to get a 2-5, or even a 6 iron over knee or head high off the ground anymore. Yes, lofts have gotten ridiculous over the years, it’s not too secret. I’ve still play a set of blades, 23-50 degrees of loft for 3-PW with no problem. Also a set of SGI Altitudes 3-PW which are what I’d call more standard lofts with a 44* PW, with a 7 wood. The Altitudes require less of me to do what I’m after with an iron, plus are easier on my old broke down body riddled with old MX injuries! OEMs are all about distance as are the younger crowd. People hit an iron and first thing you hear is, “how far did that go”,or, “man, that’s long”. Never how close or accurate they’re hitting them. Irons are all about accuracy, not distance, to me. Distance is  something one is blessed to have, and yes, Father Time will eventually catch up. 

I don’t disagree that OEMs are about distance, but foremost they are about selling as many clubs and sets of clubs as possible.  And they know the game improvement category is where most recently purchased sets of clubs are re-sold only to have the seller re-purchase a similar set in hopes of success with the longer irons.  

[Mcfly]

1 minute ago, teedub21 said:

All this from a guy that has Ping G700 5-G irons in his signature.  Ok. 

Yeah, G700s I had bent two degrees weak from standard.  Ok.  

[teedub21]

Or, people buy a 5-P or 4-P set and end up not using the 4 & 5 iron and replace them with hybrids.  I mean, honestly, golf club manufacturers are in the business of selling clubs, not making clubs people keep for a lifetime.  FWIW, most people I play with that play Ping irons, regardless of model, tend to be very brand loyal and play their irons for multiple seasons.  

[Mcfly]

20 minutes ago, teedub21 said:

Or, people buy a 5-P or 4-P set and end up not using the 4 & 5 iron and replace them with hybrids.  I mean, honestly, golf club manufacturers are in the business of selling clubs, not making clubs people keep for a lifetime.  FWIW, most people I play with that play Ping irons, regardless of model, tend to be very brand loyal and play their irons for multiple seasons.  

Or, people don’t hit the 4&5 because the 4&5 play more like a 2&3.  I knew when I posted the topic the OEM defenders would mount up to support the realm of low lofted game improvement long irons.  All part of posting in an open forum. You don’t respect my opinion nor I yours. 

Edited May 9 by Mcfly

[North Butte]

I was seeing the same rant word for word on rec.sport.golf in 1996. And it was nonsense then, as well. 

Edited May 9 by North Butte

[Mcfly]

4 minutes ago, North Butte said:

It's hard for me to show respect for a rant that I was seeing literally word for word on rec.sport.golf in 1996. And it was nonsense then, as well. 

I suspect it’s hard for you to show respect period. That’s how it is with those who define dissenting views as rants.  

[teedub21]

18 minutes ago, Mcfly said:

Or, people don’t hit the 4&5 because the 4&5 play more like a 2&3.  I knew when I posted the topic the OEM defenders would mount up to support the realm of low lofted game improvement long irons.  All part of posting in an open forum. You don’t respect my opinion nor I yours. 

Its not that I don't respect your opinion, I don't even know you.  I simply don't agree that its some nefarious scheme by OEM's to sell more sets of clubs to people that can't hit them.

 

Now you'd better finish my homework so I can copy it.  I can't turn it in in your handwriting.  

[Binson]

If it was an integrity issue, then it would also be an issue with their blades/cbs - which are pretty traditionally lofted and labeled still today.  

 

It is a nuanced topic, and there are basically 3 groups of people OEMs account for.

 

1) Golfers who only know the number of the club and how far it goes

2) Golfers who mistakenly think static loft is the loft that every golfer delivers.

3) Golfers who understand that static loft is just a fitting tool, and labels are just so it's easier for one to quickly identify one club within a set from another within that set.

 

#1 doesn't know enough to care (they may not want to know, and that's ok). And if they are higher handicappers, they likely deliver more dynamic loft than ideal. So, a stronger static loft helps deliver impact numbers more similar to a better player.  If they're better players, they're less likely to be looking to purchase GI/SGI's.

 

#2 knows enough to think they know, but are actually missing key pieces of information in forming their opinion. This group tends to be the loudest as they think it is a conspiracy.

 

#3 knows enough to know they are built a certain way for a certain demographic.  If they buy GI/SGI, they do so knowing which clubs in the set deliver the trajectory they're looking for.

 

OEMs have chosen to tailor products to #1, and #3.  I think they can do a better job of educating #2 so that they get to #3, or maybe offer the ability to custom label clubs to satisfy #2. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9 by Binson

[J3H]

The loft doesn’t correlate directly to the iron. A 26° super chunky game improvement 7 iron designed for high launch could have the same launch angle as a 34° blade. The number correlates to the launch angle and window. They want the 26° to launch like the 34 so it has the same flight as a traditional 7 iron while taking spin off and going further. The goal is help more golfers get the ball in the air and stay there. There are flight windows that manufactures designate as a “7 iron window” and they design multiple types of clubs to fit multiple types of golfers to reach those windows. Loft is just a piece of that and only matters due to club head shaping and construction.

 

Not my words but hope this makes a bit more sense as to the complaints you have

[m d g]

 

I chip with my 42-wood.

 

Am I doing it wrong?

[Long_Left]

Don't blame the new fangled stove for burning your eggs because "it gets hotter than my old stove and they are in bed with the big egg corporations!"

 

Maybe just try a 9 wood or a 5 hybrid.

[Mcfly]

9 minutes ago, Long_Left said:

Don't blame the new fangled stove for burning your eggs because "it gets hotter than my old stove and they are in bed with the big egg corporations!"

 

Maybe just try a 9 wood or a 5 hybrid.

A friend asked me to play pickle ball last year.  I’m in my mid/late sixties and told him  “thanks but I’m not old enough to play pickle ball.”

Also not old enough to pack a 9 wood.  
I suspect you are an executive with Watt Poultry and have recently acquired a time restricted option in one of the aforementioned OEM club providers….

[PJE]

I don't think OEMs are engaged in a conspiracy to make unusable clubs.  The sales reps. will tell you 7 iron performance in the hitting bay drives sales. I see the dynamic surrounding sales as the reason for lower lofted GI sets. 

I think  the OP has overgeneralizes regarding his swing speed point.  OEMs design golf clubs based on a bell curve of golfer characteristics.  There are specific models for low speed golfers( see below).  For example, I have a 23 degree five iron which is yesterday's four iron and I hit it 190 yards with a nice trajectory. I think that's about right for my aged 61 year old self. I see plenty of younger guys at my course whose swing speeds I envy playing late model GI sets without difficulty.  

The OEMs generally make these strong lofted GI clubs with strong rearward center of gravity (COG).  For example, the Ping G730 has a healthy rearward COG of .501 per the Maltby ratings. This high launch  helps mitigate the speed needed to elevate these irons. (High launch is also necessary so the shots stop on greens because a lot of these irons are low spin.)

The G730 is billed as Ping's longest irons, ever. It is not surprising the lofts are strong.  A golfer can also get the G730 in a retro spec.  

OEMs tell golfers to get fit. If the G730 isn't suitable, a golfer can check out the G430, which also includes retro spec lofts.  Ping makes a model for low speed golfers, the G430 HL. Mizuno takes a similar approach with a model for low speed guys  with the Hot Metal HL. In fact, Mizuno offers something for everyone with no less than 5 models in their JPX (GI) range. 

Hybrids are a viable option and I carry one but hybrids are a tricky thing for some golfers.  Some of them get up too high in the wind for the courses some golfers play and some of them are not too good off of tight lies. Some golfers hook the heck out of them.  My point is a golfer might have a hard time finding a hybrid they really like.

I think the maximum loft for a 7 iron ideally would be 30 degrees.  But the Rubicon has been crossed.

And, I don't sell clubs for a living, ha ha. 

 

[gavinski91]

33 minutes ago, Mcfly said:

Also not old enough to pack a 9 wood.  

Give it a couple of years and you'll hit 38 and be able to pack one, just like old man Dustin Johnson.

https://www.golfwrx.com/678875/dustin-johnson-explains-why-hes-using-a-9-wood-at-the-2022-u-s-open/

[Nessism]

I'm a huge fan of Ping irons, particularly their G series.  I've used almost every G between G5 and G425, but that's where I'm stopping.  I refuse to carry FIVE wedges.  If you guys want to, knock yourself out.  I won't.  

 

Oh, and Ping is NOT the only company with the stupid strong lofts these days.  Most OEM's are lockstep.  It's a big lie; people hit the new 7 iron farther, so they buy a set, not realizing the reason is because the lofts are jacked.  Ignorance is bliss.  

[Long_Left]

1 hour ago, Mcfly said:

A friend asked me to play pickle ball last year.  I’m in my mid/late sixties and told him  “thanks but I’m not old enough to play pickle ball.”

Also not old enough to pack a 9 wood.  
I suspect you are an executive with Watt Poultry and have recently acquired a time restricted option in one of the aforementioned OEM club providers….

Well then, just keep hitting that low 4 and 5 iron I guess, good luck to you and whomever you share your life with.

[bekgolf]

3 hours ago, Mcfly said:

I don’t disagree that OEMs are about distance, but foremost they are about selling as many clubs and sets of clubs as possible.  And they know the game improvement category is where most recently purchased sets of clubs are re-sold only to have the seller re-purchase a similar set in hopes of success with the longer irons.  

 

So it's a profit deal...

[596]

I love to read conspiracy theories.  I don't believe any of them but they are fun to read!