Moe Norman > Ben Hogan

[JBOMB808]

Alright! This is what I'm talking about.

Can we agree that

1. Hogan's swing had amazing distance with pinpoint accuracy that HE has to 'release' properly in order for it to work?

2. Moe's swing although lacks distance, has the built in fundamentals of a walking Iron Byron?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342680194' post='5306372']
Alright! This is what I'm talking about.

Can we agree that

1. Hogan's swing had amazing distance with pinpoint accuracy that HE has to 'release' properly in order for it to work?

2. Moe's swing although lacks distance, has the built in fundamentals of a walking Iron Byron?
[/quote]

Yup. Can't agree more with no. 2. Iron Byron reduced the swing into just one hinge. That is what Moe is trying to do (although of course his L wrist still hinges).

Hogan recognized that there are 2 hinges. And he treated them entirely separately, then found a way to integrate their given benefits. Amazing....

[drewspin]

Because moe's left arm moves left down the line BEFORE it moves around after it runs out of travel, he does not have to hold off with his HANDs. He uses his arms, and he uses the Huge oversized grip in the PALM. His legs stay low to accomodate it, wheras Hogan is moving his hips and shoulders UP through impact.

It's a push down the line back hand, not much leverage whatsoever.

Very Straight, but very short.

You'd have to design an iron Byron that slid the whole freaking drive shaft mechanism to the left down the line to create an Iron Moe.

Hogan keeps his torque around his pre-shifted pivot point, and moves it with far more leverage.

[bhughesgolf]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1342681547' post='5306416']
. He uses his arms, and he uses the Huge oversized grip in the PALM. His legs stay low to accomodate it,
[/quote]

Exactly... Moe was a passive dead hand swinger. That is why the face closes, but it closes later than most people
Moe figured out to be an arm swinger with the hands passive into the strike just swinging to get the shaft aligned at impact you had to set up on shoulder plane and return it there
Just about everyone else wants to use passive hands starting at elbow plane at address and then raise to shoulder plane at impact

Hogan was an aggressive hitter with his hands, totally different actions into and thru impact but both did it the right way... Set it on elbow plane returned it to same point... same as Peete, Trevino, Knudson and a few others

[eightiron]

Is this Tgm swinging v hitting ?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342669844' post='5305666']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342659681' post='5304198']

(I'll bring it back.)

Young Moe vs Hogan

Their anchored Right foot. Moe later on kept it planted - I hypothesis that's what enabled him to be straighter. Enjoy the greats' footwork!

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiBX1LnOWCI[/media]

[/quote]

That is a pretty good swing of Moe in there. A lot changed from that to his later/older swings. Do you have a DTL of that same age/era of Moe?
[/quote]

I like the swing of the young Moe.

Honestly, I've never cared for his swing dynamic becasue I have only seen his older "unorthodox" looking swing, but the young version is cool. If someone can find a good DTL of the young Moe, I'll do a comparison.

[hoganfan924]

I've wondered for a long time when did Moe go from a pretty orthodox swing in his 20's when he played in the Masters, to that unorthodox "natural golf" swing he had later in life. He claimed that he hit something like 1000 balls/day over a several year period as a young man in order to develop his swing but then it appears that he changed it. When did that happen? Anyone know?

Ask far as the ballstriking argument. Sure, Moe reportedly could hit it dead straight time after time and got popular in the 90's with the whole natural golf thing so he'd give a lot of demonstrations that impressed everyone that watched him. But this reminds me of a current pro/instructor who I'm told oooh's and ahh's the students by hitting every ballflight on command with an iron. Problem is he's hitting a 7 iron 140 yards. Guess he'll have to make his playing living on executive par 3's!

If we're going to claim greatness based on amazing feats on a driving range, I nominate Chuck "the hitman" Hiter as the best ballstriker ever! I'll bet even Moe couldn't hit it dead solid standing on a basketball!

[svsvincenzo]

I think it is basically the same swing. The setup with the arms, legs, and the grip are all the same. Maybe he really just got overweight, became older and got inflexible. He had a shortened BS and follow-thru.

[hoganfan924]

Doesn't look to me like he reaches out nearly as much at address and he doesn't have that exaggerated DTL chase.

[drewspin]

Maybe Moe changed when Jack Kuykendall got hold of him, and then there needed to be something to commercialize as "Natural Golf"?


Here's Jack K's description of Moe's mechanics:

[url="http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/mechanics.htm"]http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/mechanics.htm[/url]

Moe had an overlap grip when he played competitvely, according to many who played along side him.

[JBOMB808]

Greg Lavern, also known as 'Pure Spice' at advancedballstriking.com forum, knew Moe really well. He said that Moe would switch back to his overlap grip whenever he wasn't doing a promotion for Natural Golf. You can youtube Greg Lavern and you will see a move very similar to Moe's. More so than Todd Graves, who is another Moe advocate. As far as Young Moe's swing, you really see how he used the ground to swing from, and I wouldn't be surprised if Moe would have wanted an extra spike in his right shoe during that time.

When asked what's the most important part of the swing...

-Moe said it was the pivot.

-Ben said it was how you started the downswing(transition).

Funny how two incredible ball-strikers could pinpoint what they believed was the specific 'motor' driving their swing. Not setup, not grip, not a cupped wrist, not swingplane. These I believe are fundamentals that should be taken care of before you even take the club back. After that, the pivot(downswing) puts it all into place.

[nbg352]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342680194' post='5306372']
Alright! This is what I'm talking about.

Can we agree that

1. Hogan's swing had amazing distance with pinpoint accuracy that HE has to 'release' properly in order for it to work?

2. [b]Moe's swing although lacks distance, has the built in fundamentals of a walking Iron Byron?[/b]
[/quote]
I never saw Hogan swing in a live environment, but I saw Moe Norman on many occasions and that is exactly what he was, in my minds eye...a walking Iron Byron. I have never seen anyone hit a ball so precisely every time and I have never seen such tight shot patterns, with every club, in any conditions before him or after him. And I doubt I ever will. Moe Norman was a very different kind of man with a very special gift!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342676446' post='5306172']
...go ask him again if he'll answer....

[/quote]

He won't.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1342722031' post='5309838']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342676446' post='5306172']
...go ask him again if he'll answer....

[/quote]

He won't.
[/quote]

Oops - thought you were talking about Moe.

[tembolo1284]

wow...i never realized he never played in any of the other majors. Only played in the masters. That's a shame. Maybe he coulda done a lot of damage at the us open with his accurate ball striking.

[Mike Divot]

Greg Norman used to hit it fantastic, except when in contention in the final round of a major.

Let's get Moe Norman into contention in the final round of a major and see how his swing holds up under some actual pressure.

No? Well then, this is just so much fantasy [s]football[/s] golf.

Actually, it's like teenagers arguing who's better, Bieber or One Direction.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Mike Divot' timestamp='1342962308' post='5326040']
Greg Norman used to hit it fantastic, except when in contention in the final round of a major.

Let's get Moe Norman into contention in the final round of a major and see how his swing holds up under some actual pressure.

No? Well then, this is just so much fantasy [s]football[/s] golf.

Actually, it's like teenagers arguing who's better, Bieber or One Direction.
[/quote]

Glad to have you join us...lol

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='Mike Divot' timestamp='1342962308' post='5326040']
Greg Norman used to hit it fantastic, except when in contention in the final round of a major.

Let's get Moe Norman into contention in the final round of a major and see how his swing holds up under some actual pressure.

No? Well then, this is just so much fantasy [s]football[/s] golf.

Actually, it's like teenagers arguing who's better, Bieber or One Direction.
[/quote]

Hello Mike,

Here's some facts about Moe and his time on the the U.S. tour. Please pay attention to the bold lettering.

[color=#000000][size=3]
[i]"According to ESPN, Norman played the PGA Tour beginning in 1959. After a tournament in New Orleans, [b]PGA officials gave Norman a dressing down regarding his playing antics. Feeling let down by the PGA's attitude towards him, Norman returned to Canada to play golf.[/b][/i][/size][/color][color=#000000][size=3]
[i]According to Wiki, He turned professional in 1957 and played briefly in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGA_Tour"]PGA Tour[/url], but due to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shyness"]shyness[/url],[b] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying"]bullying[/url] he encountered from certain pros[/b], and a preference to stay in Canada, he stayed primarily in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario"]Ontario[/url] rather than travel extensively outside Canada. [/i][/size][/color]
[i][color=#000000][size=3]Norman's skills as a ball striker are legendary. [/size][/color][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Snead"]Sam Snead[/url][/b][color=#000000][size=3][b], himself [/b]one of the all-time greatest golfers, [b]described Norman as the greatest striker of the ball. [/b]In January 2005, [/size][/color][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Woods"]Tiger Woods[/url][/b][color=#000000][size=3][b], the biggest golf star of the modern era,[/b] told [/size][/color][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_Digest"]Golf Digest[/url]'[/i][color=#000000][size=3]s Jaime Diaz that only two golfers in history have [b]"owned their swings": Moe Norman and [/b][/size][/color][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hogan"]Ben Hogan[/url][size="2"][color="#000000"]." ([/color][/size][/b][/i]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_Norman)

Greg hit it great, no doubt, but I've never heard of Tiger or Sam Snead commenting on Greg's swing. Not to Mention Greg had very violent footwork that would be very difficult to emulate. Especially if you think about using soft spikes for that action. Adjust your beliefs that one has to have a 'major' to have a good swing and you will realize that there's a reason Sam Snead and Tiger would make such a comment.


Never heard of One Direction, but people have heard of Moe, Ben and Bieber!

[hoganfan924]

Moe played a full season on the PGA tour and never sniffed a win. With all that knocking down the flagstick ballstriking he must have been one lousy putter!

[Thrillhouse]

You know what the moe PGA tour tale of woe says to me? It says that mentally and emotionally the big stage was too much from him. Since mental and emotional control is a big part of tournament golf it pretty much ends any inclusion in the "great player" club. You can call it "dressing down" or "bullying" or whatever you want, but jack Nicklaus was bullied and dressed down when they called him fat jack early on and he still won. Lee elder encountered more bullying and dressing down because of the colour of his skin and he still won. The real players fight through it, those who can't do that fade away to lesser stages with less pressure where it is easier to win.

Moe was a great golf ball whacker guy, isn't that enough?

[rhh7]

I followed Ben Hogan's exploits on a weekly basis, beginning in 1951.

And I have to agree with Thrillhouse, I am a little tired of the obsession with his swing mechanics.

He was a great golfer, he had a tragic life story.

His mystique has been a little overdone.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342982258' post='5328670']

Moe was a great golf ball whacker guy, isn't that enough?
[/quote]

Just like Happy!

[SurfinTurf]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342572829' post='5296122']
I'm surprised Moe doesn't get more buzz than Hogan when it comes to the golf swing. Ben had a great mind and a fiery competitive spirit, but [b]Moe clearly owned Ben when it came to quality ball-striking[/b]. They say Jack watched Hogan, but Hogan never watched Jack. Hogan sure did watch Moe though.
[/quote]

Welcome to the site and all. I've enjoyed the vid of young Moe. Wish we had more of those. The old Moe spouting golf poetry is also fascinating in an uncomfortable kinda way. Nice to learn more about the guy but I think you'd be better off leaving the whole Hogan comparison out of the equation. Showing up with a Moe Norman "braced" avatar saying "Moe owned Ben" maybe isn't really the way you want to introduce yourself.

Let us know where you're coming from and you'd be less likely to be labeled as a "troll with an agenda". Maybe you can save your round, so to speak. Can I ask does your swing look anything like Moe Norman's? Is that working for you? Do you struggle with hitting the ball straight?

[Guia]

As I stated before Moe was a great ball striker, and his swing was unique to his personality. It was far from traditional and everyone I know who tried to copy it "failed". It was unique to Moe.

It is impossible to say in any era who had the best golf swing, it varies too much. A swing rarely, if ever, wins tournaments, swing coaches never win tournaments, players who know how to score "Win Tournaments". All this debate about the swing is worthless. You count the victories and that is the person who produced the best under pressure. If you can't do it with something on the line it doesn't mean s*** (I don't care how pretty it is).

[isaacbm]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1342999657' post='5330246']
As I stated before Moe was a great ball striker, and his swing was unique to his personality. It was far from traditional and everyone I know who tried to copy it "failed". It was unique to Moe.

It is impossible to say in any era who had the best golf swing, it varies too much. A swing rarely, if ever, wins tournaments, swing coaches never win tournaments, players who know how to score "Win Tournaments". All this debate about the swing is worthless. You count the victories and that is the person who produced the best under pressure. If you can't do it with something on the line it doesn't mean s*** (I don't care how pretty it is).
[/quote]

Bingo! couldn't agree more. If you look at couples from 40 yards away, you could argue he has the prettiest swing. Close up no so much. Maybe he just has the prettiest rhythm?

Tom Purtzer maybe has the "best" swing. He was voted best swing on tour by his peers for 10 years in a row. Lot's on this board have never heard of him.

I personally think the reason there's so much obsession about Hogan is that he wrote a book on the golf swing long before any other top tier player did. People could obsess about what they/he thought was going on in his swing and how that made all of the difference.

the only way to really evaluate who's swing works the best is to look at their playing record at the highest levels. But even then it's not accurate because one player can hit all the fairways and greens and putt poorly and another can do the opposite and come out the winner so his swing really is irrelevant in this case.

The whole debate is misplaced because the golf swing doesn't win golf tournaments. The lowest score does. Furyk has been near the top of the world for years. Guess we should all start copying his swing??

[JBOMB808]

Ok, I see what you guys are talking about. The reason I'm bringing up such a comparison is because both of these strikers were obviously doing something 'right'. Finding that commonality I think is the best way of approaching the golf swing. When you bring up Furyk's swing, it is not his backswing that accurately 'pures' the ball down the fairway or on the green, but his entry and exit of impact. The reason why Furyk and even Trevino had such outside backswings was to allow for the transition to set the club. I believe Hogan set it IN the backswing, and Moe I believe set it at address. I know golf is a complete game, but 18 greens sounds good to ME regardless of score.

Here's my "entry, exit, balance, ground pressure, contact, and ball flight." Enjoy!
454 Callaway Big Bertha 9* Driver w/DG TTLite Stiff Steel Shaft
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfMhHY_VrME&feature=plcp[/media]
Mizuno MP-14 2-iron 5* degrees flat and *new standard loft
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orDZRh2ZwXc&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]

[SurfinTurf]

Seeing your swing clips I'm that much more convinced. I'm thinking you have a surplus of power and a deficit of control (golf shoes would help). Maybe that’s why you’re all gun ho about Moe. You need to understand that saying "Here I am" and "[b]Moe owns Ben[/b]" isn't cool.

As a haole CA surfer to a Hawaiian, what if showed up on your doorstep and said "Rob Machado [b]OWNS[/b] Dain Kealoha". Can you relate to that? That's basically what you've just done only worse because Rob Machado is actually accomplished. And you're swing looks nothing like Moe's from what I can see. Vids suck though. How about movin that camera back ten paces.

In the end Bro I think you're going to relate much more to Ben. Thinking you're just going through control issues as did Hogan. As do we all.

But good on ya for posting your swing vids.

[JBOMB808]

My statement may have come across pretty strong about 'Moe owns Ben', but my whole concept is to be able to learn and improve your own swing from them. I just think that if people started with the concept of control like how Moe hits wedges, instead of the powerful cupped Hogan 'lag', they would improve a lot faster. I went from studying Hogan to finding Moe. Hogan did have braced (rope-tied) arms, but Moe's swing is chalked full of [u]straight[/u] lines. It's a physicist's blueprint.

Thanks SurfinTurf for the feedback on my swing. I think I displayed ALL power with a driver and especially that 2iron (which I did muscle and had a 55' open slip - intention of ground pressure?). I am more Hogan's size and build, but it's Moe's intention in the swing that turned my power into control.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCdUAkbSIPk[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PVgPCh4uBU&feature=plcp[/media]

My wedge swing has a lot cleaner hip action for accuracy over power.

[SurfinTurf]

This is how I’m assessing the situation:

A) You're a powerfully built Hawaiian fellow

B) You're equipment may as well be made of koa wood

C) I [i]SERIOUSLY[/i] hate to say it but you need to get fitted

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1343030674' post='5332550']
My statement may have come across pretty strong about 'Moe owns Ben', but my whole concept is to be able to learn and improve your own swing from them. I just think that if people started with the concept of control like how Moe hits wedges, instead of the powerful cupped Hogan 'lag', they would improve a lot faster. I went from studying Hogan to finding Moe. Hogan did have braced (rope-tied) arms, but Moe's swing is chalked full of [u]straight[/u] lines. It's a physicist's blueprint.

Thanks SurfinTurf for the feedback on my swing. I think I displayed ALL power with a driver and especially that 2iron (which I did muscle and had a 55' open slip - intention of ground pressure?). I am more Hogan's size and build, but it's Moe's intention in the swing that turned my power into control.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCdUAkbSIPk[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PVgPCh4uBU&feature=plcp[/media]

My wedge swing has a lot cleaner hip action for accuracy over power.
[/quote]

I understand the "seeking" of Moe's control. You having studied Moe more than us Hoganites, what do you think Moe did/had to have control?