Moe Norman > Ben Hogan

[fore]

I don't think it matters so much how Moe's swing worked. There are many ways to hit a golf ball. What set Moe apart from the rest was how precisely he could repeat his swing. I suspect he could have developed a more conventional swing and with enough practice he would have developed the same ability to precisely repeat it. He was unique in his ability to repeat his swing.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='lugnuty' timestamp='1342631498' post='5300334']
Ok Guys...I am the big Moe fan here....And I guess I am the one who has to stick up for him or at least chime in as requested at the beginning of this post.
First just because someone doesn't win in the PGA doesn't detract from their ability to hit the ball. I am sure that none of the folks in this forum has ever won a PGA and maybe just a few who have won a local club championship, still I know there are some good players out there.

33 course records and 17 holes in one! That's not a fluke. That's ball striking even though there is no US PGA win listed!
[/quote]

Thank you lugnuty! I'm glad someone can see what I was working towards.

Are there any documents mentioning Hogan ever making a hole in one or even setting a course record? Just because Hogan didn't make a hole in one in competition doesn't mean he wasn't a great ball-striker. Why does having a PGA tour win have to validate Moe's swing?

I may have made the title too controversial for the nit-picking personalities - I'm very sorry, but the swing is what I'm interested in. Most you guys seem to have a problem when comparing the two as golfers. I'm only comparing their "ball-striking". You can argue Moe's swing didn't have the pressure that Ben's had during a major, but most failed to mention that. The topic is expert ball-striking.

[lugnuty]

Yeah, Moe did live a different life from most people and was chastised for it by the folks that criticize those golfers who put their shoes on in the parking lot. That’s why he left the game.
Those people that look at Moe with distain because he had social anxiety, didn’t dress appropriately, had bad teeth or talked funny tend to discount how he hit the ball.
Although Tiger has the record to back up his swing, is a handsome guy and has plenty of people at his alter.. if you look at his personal life….well………..( I have watched him swing close up and my jaw dropped)
I think the origin of this post was asking if Moe’s swing would help golfers better than Hogan’s?
My opinion is NO!
Moe and Hogan both owned their swing. Period! That came from hitting balls and knowing what THEIR body is doing. (Back to Tiger…he is constantly working on his swing.) These two guys knew what they were going to hit every time with the swing they perfected for themselves. That's the lesson to be learned.

PS…Moe never missed a fairway, know any golfer to make that claim?

[nicebutdim]

Threads like this only lead to conflict and the denigration of individuals who both deserve our respect.......

Hogan was a true marvel especially considering how his career was interrupted by war and a life threatening injury.......

Moe was one of the games great oddities, and brought color and joy to an occasionally over conservative sport.......... more than watching his swing I prefer to hear him speak about the game he loved his whole life and his fascinating ideas
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rIq1aPKi1w&feature=g-like[/media]

If you want to ask a mature question, it should perhaps be; why could Moe hit it straighter than anyone ever including Ben Hogan? and ideally, does shoulder plain beat elbow plain for accuracy?

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342639058' post='5301182']
why could Moe hit it straighter than anyone ever including Ben Hogan? and ideally, does shoulder plane beat elbow plain for accuracy?
[/quote]

Quality question.

I edited my original post.

Can we agree Moe hit it straighter consistently more than Hogan?

I believe, however, that the shoulder plane vs the elbow plane is somewhat part of Moe and Ben's idiosyncrasies. I believe Moe's "arrow-like" consistency came from his move through the golfball. Specifically, he kept his right foot down longer than Hogan. Hogan slides the foot which I can see as to applying more force through the ball, but Moe's stability I think is key for his precision.

[SurfinTurf]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342639058' post='5301182']
Threads like this only lead to conflict and the denigration of individuals who both deserve our respect.......

Hogan was a true marvel especially considering how his career was interrupted by war and a life threatening injury.......

Moe was one of the games great oddities, and brought color and joy to an occasionally over conservative sport.......... more than watching his swing I prefer to hear him speak about the game he loved his whole life and his fascinating ideas
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rIq1aPKi1w&feature=g-like[/media]

If you want to ask a mature question, it should perhaps be; why could Moe hit it straighter than anyone ever including Ben Hogan? and ideally, does shoulder plain beat elbow plain for accuracy?
[/quote]

I believe the term "touched" is fitting.

Interesting but disturbing.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342640911' post='5301384']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342639058' post='5301182']
why could Moe hit it straighter than anyone ever including Ben Hogan? and ideally, does shoulder plane beat elbow plain for accuracy?
[/quote]

Quality question.

So can we all agree Moe hit it straighter than Hogan?
[/quote]

You're comparing apples and oranges. One was an oddity who was very impressive on the range and a fine mini tour player (at best that's what the Canadian tour was back then, a lot of the guys playing it were club pros), the other was a major championship winner and one of the greatest players of all time.

It doesn't matter what moe did compared to hogan because they aren't comparable players. Did moe "hit it straighter than hogan" on a driving range? Probably. Did moe place the ball where he needed to on major championship golf courses better than hogan? In the majors he played no, he didn't. So it comes down to how you define straight, if you define it as hitting the ball on a straight line on a range then sure, but no one keeps score on the range so who cares? If you define straight as putting the ball where you need to on tough golf courses then the answer, while highly subjective because we don't have data, is probably no.

Let's see if you can respond to this one without resorting to childish name calling

[Timanator]

While Moe is a very intriguing person, but he fought demons in his own head and not tragedies that were bestowed upon him through life. Hogan worked with a dedicated purpose to winning, while Moe's focus was?

[KYMAR]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342634149' post='5300602']
One of the regular posting members of this board has about twice as many professional wins as Moe and a major championship and that's no fluke! You can even take lessons from him. But I don't see anybody worshipping at his altar. Maybe he should have lived out of his car and rotted his teeth with coke, would have added to his mystique!
[/quote]

Damn it hogan fan, come on man,. I have told you about this repeatedly. I DO NOT like talking about my major championship on the forums. A little respect please

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342641497' post='5301454']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342640911' post='5301384']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342639058' post='5301182']
why could Moe hit it straighter than anyone ever including Ben Hogan? and ideally, does shoulder plane beat elbow plain for accuracy?
[/quote]

Quality question.

So can we all agree Moe hit it straighter than Hogan?
[/quote]

You're comparing apples and oranges. One was an oddity who was very impressive on the range and a fine mini tour player (at best that's what the Canadian tour was back then, a lot of the guys playing it were club pros), the other was a major championship winner and one of the greatest players of all time.

It doesn't matter what moe did compared to hogan because they aren't comparable players. Did moe "hit it straighter than hogan" on a driving range? Probably. Did moe place the ball where he needed to on major championship golf courses better than hogan? In the majors he played no, he didn't. So it comes down to how you define straight, if you define it as hitting the ball on a straight line on a range then sure, but no one keeps score on the range so who cares? If you define straight as putting the ball where you need to on tough golf courses then the answer, while highly subjective because we don't have data, is probably no.

Let's see if you can respond to this one without resorting to childish name calling
[/quote]

Moe played the game, did he not? It's Tournament Golf no matter what. He wasn't just hacking with his friends on the weekends. We can argue and you can say it was a mini-tour compared to the US, but that's where he's from and that was his competition.

You must of missed the post lugnuty put up about his accomplishments. Please refer back and you will see Moe didn't just flush shots on the range(course records,holes in one,etc.). Outside of match play, golf is played against the course(par), is it not? I agree Moe was an odd commodity - yes, but you should give him the respect he deserves for perfecting what so many have tried or are trying to do themselves.

The topic is Golf swing, Golf swing, Golf swing. One more time?

Golf swing.

[JBOMB808]

Off topic:

On a side note, I truly admire Ben Hogan as a golfer, an athlete, and a person. I have read...
-Ben Hogan: An American Life
-Mr. Hogan, The Man I Knew
-The Match
and ofcourse Power Golf and 5 Lessons.

I know the man and his history pretty well. I'm in no way knocking the man, only comparing his swing to Moe's.

/ontopic

[hoganfan924]

I wonder what Moe's little robot would say about hanging your hat on holes-in-one and course records?

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342643790' post='5301736']
I wonder what Moe's little robot would say about hanging your hat on holes-in-one and course records?
[/quote]

That's the best part. He HAD many of them. GIRs, Fairways, Proximity - stats used to measure ball-striking(topic). Holes-in-one and course records are beyond [u]MOST[/u] players.

The ball is in your 'hole'.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342643035' post='5301626']

Moe played the game, did he not? It's Tournament Golf no matter what. He wasn't just hacking with his friends on the weekends. We can argue and you can say it was a mini-tour compared to the US, but that's where he's from and that was his competition.

You must of missed the post lugnuty put up about his accomplishments. Please refer back and you will see Moe didn't just flush shots on the range(course records,holes in one,etc.). Outside of match play, golf is played against the course(par), is it not? I agree Moe was an odd commodity - yes, but you should give him the respect he deserves for perfecting what so many have tried or are trying to do themselves.

Golf swing, Golf swing, Golf swing. One more time - golf swing.
[/quote]

Moe didn't play in Canada because it "was where he was from and because it was his competition", he played in Canada because he tried to play on the US tour and couldn't hack it there. I know you're going to jump on him not liking the other players there and not liking the way he was treated but the fact is he couldn't hack it in the show so he went back to the minors. Tons of guys have a bunch of wins in their home countries or on mini tours, are we going to compare Brian kontak, Doug dunakey, jaxon Brigman or any other of the guys who have a resume that looks exactly the same as moes on their lower level tours to Ben hogan? Of course not, because while they and moe were superstars in the minor leagues they didn't get it done at the highest level. Trying to say that a bunch of wins in Canada in the 60's and 70's compares to Ben hogans 64 PGA tour wins and 9 majors is absurd.

Finally, that moe quote of yours at the end is exactly what I'm talking about. Moe talked like that because he was mentally ill, why do people think its "cool" to imitate the way he talked?

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342644490' post='5301822']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342643035' post='5301626']
Moe played the game, did he not? It's Tournament Golf no matter what. He wasn't just hacking with his friends on the weekends. We can argue and you can say it was a mini-tour compared to the US, but that's where he's from and that was his competition.

You must of missed the post lugnuty put up about his accomplishments. Please refer back and you will see Moe didn't just flush shots on the range(course records,holes in one,etc.). Outside of match play, golf is played against the course(par), is it not? I agree Moe was an odd commodity - yes, but you should give him the respect he deserves for perfecting what so many have tried or are trying to do themselves.

Golf swing, Golf swing, Golf swing. One more time - golf swing.
[/quote]

Moe didn't play in Canada because it "was where he was from and because it was his competition", he played in Canada because he tried to play on the US tour and couldn't hack it there. I know you're going to jump on him not liking the other players there and not liking the way he was treated but the fact is he couldn't hack it in the show so he went back to the minors. Tons of guys have a bunch of wins in their home countries or on mini tours, are we going to compare Brian kontak, Doug dunakey, jaxon Brigman or any other of the guys who have a resume that looks exactly the same as moes on their lower level tours to Ben hogan? Of course not, because while they and moe were superstars in the minor leagues they didn't get it done at the highest level. Trying to say that a bunch of wins in Canada in the 60's and 70's compares to Ben hogans 64 PGA tour wins and 9 majors is absurd.

Finally, that moe quote of yours at the end is exactly what I'm talking about. Moe talked like that because he was mentally ill, why do people think its "cool" to imitate the way he talked?
[/quote]

Ok Thrillhouse, again, I'm not comparing their resumes of wins. That's an easy comparison. Hogan wins! Yay! Agreed!

Moe hit the ball great, did he not? As did Hogan, yes? Those other names you mentioned, they might of as well, but the fact is Moe is given credit by the greats. I've never heard of Tiger or any great of the game mentioning any of those players "owning" their swing or commenting of their ball-striking. To have great ball-striking in a major ok, we can split hairs. Now let's talk about their swings. You can't say Hogan was more accurate than Moe. If so, I would like proof.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342644481' post='5301820']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342643790' post='5301736']
I wonder what Moe's little robot would say about hanging your hat on holes-in-one and course records?
[/quote]

That's the best part. He HAD many of them. GIRs, Fairways, Proximity - stats used to measure ball-striking(topic). Holes-in-one and course records are beyond [u]MOST[/u] players.

The ball is in your 'hole'.
[/quote]

Cool. I noticed no double eagles listed. I've got one, guess I can claim to be even better than Moe!

Thrillhouse has it right in his assessment, IMO. Except the part about him being mentally ill. Not sure about that, maybe mildly autistic has been speculated by some.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342645045' post='5301872']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342644490' post='5301822']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342643035' post='5301626']
Moe played the game, did he not? It's Tournament Golf no matter what. He wasn't just hacking with his friends on the weekends. We can argue and you can say it was a mini-tour compared to the US, but that's where he's from and that was his competition.

You must of missed the post lugnuty put up about his accomplishments. Please refer back and you will see Moe didn't just flush shots on the range(course records,holes in one,etc.). Outside of match play, golf is played against the course(par), is it not? I agree Moe was an odd commodity - yes, but you should give him the respect he deserves for perfecting what so many have tried or are trying to do themselves.

Golf swing, Golf swing, Golf swing. One more time - golf swing.
[/quote]

Moe didn't play in Canada because it "was where he was from and because it was his competition", he played in Canada because he tried to play on the US tour and couldn't hack it there. I know you're going to jump on him not liking the other players there and not liking the way he was treated but the fact is he couldn't hack it in the show so he went back to the minors. Tons of guys have a bunch of wins in their home countries or on mini tours, are we going to compare Brian kontak, Doug dunakey, jaxon Brigman or any other of the guys who have a resume that looks exactly the same as moes on their lower level tours to Ben hogan? Of course not, because while they and moe were superstars in the minor leagues they didn't get it done at the highest level. Trying to say that a bunch of wins in Canada in the 60's and 70's compares to Ben hogans 64 PGA tour wins and 9 majors is absurd.

Finally, that moe quote of yours at the end is exactly what I'm talking about. Moe talked like that because he was mentally ill, why do people think its "cool" to imitate the way he talked?
[/quote]

Ok Thrillhouse, again, I'm not comparing their resumes of wins. That's an easy comparison. Hogan wins! Yay! Agreed!

Moe hit the ball great, did he not? As did Hogan, yes? Those other names you mentioned, they might of as well, but the fact is Moe is given credit by the greats. I've never heard of Tiger or any great of the game mentioning any of those players "owning" their swing or commenting of their ball-striking. To have great ball-striking in a major ok, we can split hairs. Now let's talk about their swings. You can't say Hogan was more accurate than Moe. If so, I would like proof.
[/quote]

And you can't say moe was more accurate than hogan because there isn't any proof of that either.

I think you should have this thread locked up and start another one in the main instruction forum that is about moe and says nothing about hogan. I think the membership here has pretty well proven that any such comparison is irrelevant.

[tatertot]

If golf were darts, Moe would be better than Hogan. But golf is more than just hitting VERY straight (and kinda short) shots, which is what Moe did.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342645317' post='5301896']
I think you should have this thread locked up and start another one in the main instruction forum that is about moe and says nothing about hogan. I think the membership here has pretty well proven that any such comparison is irrelevant.
[/quote]

You are right about the membership, but the comparison is between Moe and Hogan's [u]swing[/u]. That is all I'm comparing. Not putting, not winning, not personality. The swing that IS held to the highest level today is Ben Hogan's. No one putts like Hogan nowadays that's for sure, but today's swings(and swing theories) are compared to Hogan all the time.

This topic belongs here. The immature comments about Moe's teeth and personality do not.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342645933' post='5301984']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342645317' post='5301896']
I think you should have this thread locked up and start another one in the main instruction forum that is about moe and says nothing about hogan. I think the membership here has pretty well proven that any such comparison is irrelevant.
[/quote]

You are right about the membership, but the comparison is between Moe and Hogan's [u]swing[/u]. That is all I'm comparing. Not putting, not winning, not personality. The swing that IS held to the highest level today is Ben Hogan's. No one putts like Hogan nowadays that's for sure, but today's swings(and swing theories) are compared to Hogan all the time.

This topic belongs here. The immature comments about Moe's teeth and personality do not.
[/quote]

Uh no, it's not about the swing. You started a thread suggesting moe Norman was a more talented player than Ben hogan and then when you lost that debate you tried to say "no wait! I'm talking about something else now!" unfortunately for you it doesn't work like that. If you want to talk golf swing you should start that thread, you didn't start it here.

And Moes personality, mental issues, and yes even his coca cola addiction and bad teeth are part of the story when talking about moe Norman the player.

The fact is that not everyone shares the same reverence for someone who can hit a golf ball that you do. You've created something where in your head moe Norman is something otherworldly because he can hit a golf ball. The fact is that he was just a man who had problems with the real world and all of its challenges so he checked out and hit golf balls all day instead. I sympathize with his mental issues, I really do, but as far as placing him on a pedastal over other people sorry, I'm not going to do that.

[Guia]

THEY Say That!!!! No one ever knows who they are. Moe's swing worked for Moe, he was a unique individual. Hogan on the other hand was a Hogan fan, he studied the normal golf swing and made the refinements he needed to be Hogan. To think he had any interest in Moe's swing and was an admirer is RIDICULOUS.

THEY didn't say RIDICULOUS, I said it.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342646590' post='5302046']
Uh no, it's not about the swing. You started a thread suggesting moe Norman was a more talented player than Ben hogan and then when you lost that debate you tried to say "no wait! I'm talking about something else now!" unfortunately for you it doesn't work like that. If you want to talk golf swing you should start that thread, you didn't start it here.

And Moes personality, mental issues, and yes even his coca cola addiction and bad teeth are part of the story when talking about moe Norman the player.

The fact is that not everyone shares the same reverence for someone who can hit a golf ball that you do. You've created something where in your head moe Norman is something otherworldly because he can hit a golf ball. The fact is that he was just a man who had problems with the real world and all of its challenges so he checked out and hit golf balls all day instead. I sympathize with his mental issues, I really do, but as far as placing him on a pedastal over other people sorry, I'm not going to do that.
[/quote]

Thrillhouse, I'm sorry if I offended you by the title of the thread or my initial post, but can we move forward or would you like me to start another thread and specify in the title that I'm talking about their golf swings?

[size=6]Moe Norman swing > Ben Hogan swin[/size][size=6]g [/size]

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342647386' post='5302146']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1342646590' post='5302046']
Uh no, it's not about the swing. You started a thread suggesting moe Norman was a more talented player than Ben hogan and then when you lost that debate you tried to say "no wait! I'm talking about something else now!" unfortunately for you it doesn't work like that. If you want to talk golf swing you should start that thread, you didn't start it here.

And Moes personality, mental issues, and yes even his coca cola addiction and bad teeth are part of the story when talking about moe Norman the player.

The fact is that not everyone shares the same reverence for someone who can hit a golf ball that you do. You've created something where in your head moe Norman is something otherworldly because he can hit a golf ball. The fact is that he was just a man who had problems with the real world and all of its challenges so he checked out and hit golf balls all day instead. I sympathize with his mental issues, I really do, but as far as placing him on a pedastal over other people sorry, I'm not going to do that.
[/quote]

Thrillhouse, I'm sorry if I offended you by the title of the thread or my initial post, but can we move forward or would you like me to start another thread and specify in the title that I'm talking about their golf swings?

[size=6]Moe Norman swing > Ben Hogan swin[/size][size=6]g [/size]
[/quote]

So what evidence do you have that moe Normans swing was better than Ben hogans swing?

I'm not talking about heresay or quotes, what evidence exists that substantiates that claim?

[drewspin]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342634149' post='5300602']
One of the regular posting members of this board has about twice as many professional wins as Moe and a major championship and that's no fluke! You can even take lessons from him. But I don't see anybody worshipping at his altar. Maybe he should have lived out of his car and rotted his teeth with coke, would have added to his mystique!
[/quote]

Actually, he hit balls with Moe too.

For real, I do say a word of thanks at the serendipitous ways the world -- and quite often -- for finding the abiding truth of his instruction, and if that constitutes worshipping at his altar, well dunk me in that river and let me swim upstream... I will leave it to those more authoritative than me to define whether I am a worshipper.

But, I am not afraid to say it: [b]Fats is The Man![/b]

[Guia]

Who is Fats?

[drewspin]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1342649364' post='5302600']
Who is Fats?
[/quote]

He's The Man, man.
What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
The power of hoodoo.
Hoodoo?
You do!
Do what?
Listen to The Man!
What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
The power of hoodoo.
Hoodoo?
You do!
Do what?
Listen to The Man!

[JBOMB808]

Hogan was known for [u]his fade[/u], correct? Moe was known for hitting it dead [u]straight[/u], correct?

[b]The straight shot is [size=6]harder[/size] to hit compared to a fade([size=6]period[/size])[/b]

All other achievements aside. Moe's SWING wins [size=6][u][i][b]IMO[/b][/i][/u][/size].

[SurfinTurf]

I think Moe Norman is the Antihogan.

Difference between having character and being a character. I feel kinda sorry for him too.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342649773' post='5302676']
Hogan was known for [u]his fade[/u], correct? Moe was known for hitting it dead [u]straight[/u], correct?

[b]The straight shot is [size=6]harder[/size] to hit compared to a fade([size=6]period[/size])[/b]

All other achievements aside. Moe's SWING wins [size=6][u][i][b]IMO[/b][/i][/u][/size].


[/quote]

Dude why are you yelling?

[Guia]

Moe never missed a fairway! That is a ridiculous statement. This is a ridiculous post/debate, its like apple and oranges.