What camera do you use to film your swing?

[vertigo88]

Just curious guys, but do these cameras all listed play back recorded videos frame by frame/at a slower pace than 1x?

[CourtJester]

[quote name='vertigo88' timestamp='1346810417' post='5588411']
Just curious guys, but do these cameras all listed play back recorded videos frame by frame/at a slower pace than 1x?
[/quote]

Generally high speed cameras record at a high fps, then play them back at either 30 or 60 fps.

This is the only way to see the video in slow motion.

If a camera records at 240 fps and plays back at 240 fps, it would be the same as recording and watching it at 30 fps.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Chas Tennis' timestamp='1346791962' post='5586449']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1346765415' post='5583405']
Casio FH 100
............................................................. Problem is that the Casio's seem to have reliability problems. My FC100 only lasted about 18 months before the start up memory failed and I had to input the date/time every single time I started it. Now my FH 100 is doing the same whenever I take out the battery to charge it.
................................................................................
[/quote]

I had noticed the same thing recently with my Casio FH100 and have been worried. After reading your email I started reading the user's manual.

I am not certain that my loss of the set date was not due to this -

Page 18 Casio FH100 User's Manual -

[i]"Leaving the camera for about one day with no power supplied while the battery is dead will cause its date and time settings to be cleared. A message telling you to configure time and date will appear the next time you turn on the camera after restoring power....."[/i]

[The full User's Manual for the Casio cameras can be downloaded from Casio support.]

I'll be checking to see if this only happens when the battery may have been dead for a day. ? I almost always have a charged battery so I can avoid it by changing the battery right away.
[/quote]

Thanks,

That might be the issue with the FH100 but not with the FC100 I have. The FC100 would do it every time I started it, even when it had a fully charged battery installed.

[vinny809]

I use SloPro on my iPhone and its honestly good enough. It can boost the FPS up to 1000 fps. However, that isn't necessary. The best thing to do (if you want a cheap option is (if you have an iphone):
1) Get a cheap iphone tripod off ebay ($4)
2)is to record your swings on an iphone using the oem app or slopro ($5?)
3) upload your video using V1, imovie or any video editing app
4) use your mouse to manually drag the video clip. This will give you the smoothest video and you can start/stop and go back/forth all you want.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='CourtJester' timestamp='1346810547' post='5588425']
[quote name='vertigo88' timestamp='1346810417' post='5588411']
Just curious guys, but do these cameras all listed play back recorded videos frame by frame/at a slower pace than 1x?
[/quote]

Generally high speed cameras record at a high fps, then play them back at either 30 or 60 fps.

This is the only way to see the video in slow motion.

If a camera records at 240 fps and plays back at 240 fps, it would be the same as recording and watching it at 30 fps.
[/quote]

Not at all same and I cant understand how it could play it back 30fps.

In every camera I have been working with you can choose how to play it back and of course the main point of using higher frame rates is to get good stills of certain moments, and there we come to shutter problems.

If I want to get good overall idea about someones swing, I like to use 30fps, as higher rates makes dynamics disappear. For details something between 150 to 240 starts to be good enough.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='HackerD ' timestamp='1346799900' post='5587325']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1346762620' post='5583265']
I have a taken swing videos for years with all different kinds and qualities of video cameras, and the one I find most useful is...my iPhone! I always have it with me, and it is easy to get someone at the range to shoot a couple vids. I usually shoot their swing and email it to them as a way of thanking them for helping me. I download it to my computer and it is perfect. I can see absolutely everything I need to in my swing, and the files aren't gigantic.

I wish I had started using it years ago.
[/quote]
iPhone = 30 fps. Do you use an app that boosts frame rate (eg SloPro)?
[/quote]

Can you explain how that could boost the frame rate when that camera only takes those 30 fps? Something I didn't understood?

[CourtJester]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346820620' post='5589243']
[quote name='CourtJester' timestamp='1346810547' post='5588425']
[quote name='vertigo88' timestamp='1346810417' post='5588411']
Just curious guys, but do these cameras all listed play back recorded videos frame by frame/at a slower pace than 1x?
[/quote]

Generally high speed cameras record at a high fps, then play them back at either 30 or 60 fps.

This is the only way to see the video in slow motion.

If a camera records at 240 fps and plays back at 240 fps, it would be the same as recording and watching it at 30 fps.
[/quote]

Not at all same and I cant understand how it could play it back 30fps.

In every camera I have been working with you can choose how to play it back and of course the main point of using higher frame rates is to get good stills of certain moments, and there we come to shutter problems.

If I want to get good overall idea about someones swing, I like to use 30fps, as higher rates makes dynamics disappear. For details something between 150 to 240 starts to be good enough.
[/quote]

What do you mean you can't understand how it could play it back at 30 fps?

If a camera shoots a 5 second real time clip at 240 fps then it has captured 1200 frames (images) of information.
So when you play back those 1200 frames at 30 fps, your 5 second real time clip turns into a 40 second clip, creating the slow motion.


When you see something in slow motion you are seeing a high speed capture played back at a lower frame rate.

The higher the capture rate, the slower the video is when played back at the standard 30 fps. A 5 second 1000fps capture played at 30fps would turn into a 166 second clip.

You have to reduce the fps the video is viewed at to create the slow motion effect. If you captured a 5 second clip at 240 fps and then played it back at 240 fps, it would take 5 seconds to watch, thus you would have no slow motion.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di_6kJXdil8[/media]

The NBA uses the Phantom line of high speed HD cameras. Their clips are shot at a lot less than 240 fps because basketball is played at a much slower speed than the golf swing, but some of the Phantom cameras can capture at 4-5,000 fps in 1080p, which is why they and others like them (Weisscams) cost so much.

[Bingo1976]

Anyone using SLRs? I have the Sony a55 DSLR, and have got some great shots of me at/just post impact (shoots at 10fps). The quality is good, even if it's not exactly slow motion...

I also use the video feature + my gorillapod, which isn't bad at all. Though I think it only shoots MPEG4 at 30fps. It also uses AVCHD which is a bugger to get onto your computer, but is very detailed at 1080i and 1,920 x 1,080.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='CourtJester' timestamp='1346823094' post='5589387']


What do you mean you can't understand how it could play it back at 30 fps?

If a camera shoots a 5 second real time clip at 240 fps then it has captured 1200 frames (images) of information.
So when you play back those 1200 frames at 30 fps, your 5 second real time clip turns into a 40 second clip, creating the slow motion.


When you see something in slow motion you are seeing a high speed capture played back at a lower frame rate.

The higher the capture rate, the slower the video is when played back at the standard 30 fps. A 5 second 1000fps capture played at 30fps would turn into a 166 second clip.

You have to reduce the fps the video is viewed at to create the slow motion effect. If you captured a 5 second clip at 240 fps and then played it back at 240 fps, it would take 5 seconds to watch, thus you would have no slow motion.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di_6kJXdil8[/media]

The NBA uses the Phantom line of high speed HD cameras. Their clips are shot at a lot less than 240 fps because basketball is played at a much slower speed than the golf swing, but some of the Phantom cameras can capture at 4-5,000 fps in 1080p, which is why they and others like them (Weisscams) costs so much.
[/quote]

We are talking about different things and for example youtube is not what camera plays back. Any camera I have used plays it back with same time than recorded if needed.

For example this video If I watch it from my camera or from some of my media players, I can see each frame and it's real 240fps. If you try to watch it frame by frame in youtube, you see lot of frames are missing

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMXnoCnB2RU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMXnoCnB2RU[/url]

[CourtJester]

I don't think you understand how slow motion works.

[b]Slow motion[/b] (commonly abbreviated as [b]slowmo[/b]) is an effect in film-making whereby [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time"]time[/url] appears to be slowed down. It was invented by the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria"]Austrian[/url] priest [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Musger"]August Musger[/url].
Typically this style is achieved when [b]each [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film"]film[/url] frame is captured at a rate much faster than it will be played back[/b]. When [b]replayed at normal speed, time appears to be moving more slowly[/b]. The technical term for slow motion is [b]overcranking[/b] which refers to the concept of cranking a handcranked camera at a faster rate than normal (i.e. faster than 24 frames per second). [b]Slow motion can also be achieved by playing normally recorded footage at a slower speed.[/b]



If you capture something at 240 fps then play it back at 240 fps, it would look exactly the same as if you captured it at 30 fps and played it back at 30 fps.
The brain can discern minute levels of change between 30 and 60 fps, but anything higher and the brain cannot keep up, this is why replaying a high speed capture at the capture speed is useless because the brain cannot process 240 images each second.



YouTube compresses videos to lower the bitrate and thus some information gets lost. However, that has nothing to do with how slow motion works or is achieved.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='CourtJester' timestamp='1346824639' post='5589441']
I don't think you understand how slow motion works.

[b]Slow motion[/b] (commonly abbreviated as [b]slowmo[/b]) is an effect in film-making whereby [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time"]time[/url] appears to be slowed down. It was invented by the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria"]Austrian[/url] priest [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Musger"]August Musger[/url].
Typically this style is achieved when [b]each [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film"]film[/url] frame is captured at a rate much faster than it will be played back[/b]. When [b]replayed at normal speed, time appears to be moving more slowly[/b]. The technical term for slow motion is [b]overcranking[/b] which refers to the concept of cranking a handcranked camera at a faster rate than normal (i.e. faster than 24 frames per second). [b]Slow motion can also be achieved by playing normally recorded footage at a slower speed.[/b]



If you capture something at 240 fps then play it back at 240 fps, it would look exactly the same as if you captured it at 30 fps and played it back at 30 fps.



YouTube compresses videos to lower the bitrate and thus some information gets lost. However, that has nothing to do with how slow motion works or is achieved.
[/quote]

CJ, I think I really understand something about this as been working as a CTO for 7 years just with high speed camera system. You are just confusing frame rate and playback options of media players. If the camera captures 240 frames in one second, each of them are visible also in playback. If it captures only 30, only 30 can be seen, or actually they use to take 60 half frames and because of that you can boost it to 60fps by software.

[CourtJester]

I don't think you understand how slow motion works.

 

Slow motion (commonly abbreviated as slowmo) is an effect in film-making whereby time appears to be slowed down. It was invented by the Austrian priest August Musger.

Typically this style is achieved when each film frame is captured at a rate much faster than it will be played back. When replayed at normal speed, time appears to be moving more slowly. The technical term for slow motion is overcranking which refers to the concept of cranking a handcranked camera at a faster rate than normal (i.e. faster than 24 frames per second). Slow motion can also be achieved by playing normally recorded footage at a slower speed.

 

 

 

If you capture something at 240 fps then play it back at 240 fps, it would look exactly the same as if you captured it at 30 fps and played it back at 30 fps.

 

 

 

YouTube compresses videos to lower the bitrate and thus some information gets lost. However, that has nothing to do with how slow motion works or is achieved.

 

CJ, I think I really understand something about this as been working as a CTO for 7 years just with high speed camera system. You are just confusing frame rate and playback options of media players. If the camera captures 240 frames in one second, each of them are visible also in playback. If it captures only 30, only 30 can be seen, or actually they use to take 60 half frames and because of that you can boost it to 60fps by software.

 

It's really too bad, that in 7 years, you haven't learned more.

 

How slow motion is created with high speed cameras isn't even really that complicated.

 

 

The human brain CANNOT, read PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, recognize 240 images (frames) in a second and this is precisely the reason high speed capture is played back at lower rates.

 

Slow motion is created in 2 fashions, recording at a high fps and then playing it back slower or via post processing in which software builds new frames from the surrounding frames.

 

 

 

 

 

Camera records at 20 fps, projector plays back at 10 fps, thus doubling the time it takes to play the information that was captured, creating slow motion. This is how slow motion is created at the camera level.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is an example of slow motion created via post processing.

The frames marked with a X have to be created via software.

[TeeAce]

Like I said, you are talking about playback options, not about the frame rate. I can watch one second 240 fps clip from my camera in 0,1 second or in one minute time. or even longer if I wish. If I use the default, it's very common that it's set like you said or about that level, but it doesn't change the reality that camera gives you back every frame that is recorded and you can choose how to watch them.

[CourtJester]

Like I said, you are talking about playback options, not about the frame rate. I can watch one second 240 fps clip from my camera in 0,1 second or in one minute time. or even longer if I wish. If I use the default, it's very common that it's set like you said or about that level, but it doesn't change the reality that camera gives you back every frame that is recorded and you can choose how to watch them.

 

I'll do you one better since it seems you do not understand yet.

 

That video you linked, I downloaded it to show you how fast it's being played at.

 

You said you recorded this clip at 240 fps.

At 240 fps you recorded 4.47 ((37*29)/240) real time seconds of information. When it is played back at a more standard rate of 29fps, the time increases to view the clip resulting in a slow motion 37 second clip.

 

 

Sure you could view 240 fps at 240 fps, but like I said earlier it would be absolutely no different than viewing 30 fps at 30 fps, because the brain cannot process that many images in a second.

That's the whole point of capturing at a high rate and then playing it back slower, or creating slow motion, so you can see more information than the human brain can visually process.

[TeeAce]

Like I said, you are talking about playback options, not about the frame rate. I can watch one second 240 fps clip from my camera in 0,1 second or in one minute time. or even longer if I wish. If I use the default, it's very common that it's set like you said or about that level, but it doesn't change the reality that camera gives you back every frame that is recorded and you can choose how to watch them.

 

I'll do you one better since it seems you do not understand yet.

 

That video you linked, I downloaded it to show you how fast it's being played at.

 

I totally understand what you mean, but you are talking about play back OPTIONS and defaults. You are talking about players how they show it if you dont adjust anything and just play it.

 

There is just no rule that something recorded at 240 will play back 30 fps as you said. No way. I can play 30fps video back in 0,1s or one hour. Same for 240fps video.

[CourtJester]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346827228' post='5589501']
I totally understand what you mean, but you are talking about play back OPTIONS and defaults. You are talking about players how they show it if you dont adjust anything and just play it.

There is just no rule that something recorded at 240 will play back 30 fps as you said. No way. I can play 30fps video back in 0,1s or one hour. Same for 240fps video.
[/quote]

Pretty much every digital camera plays back at 30 fps, 24/30 fps is THE standard in filmography.

When you watch TV, you're watching video at 24 fps. Pretty much every movie recorded is viewed at 24 fps, this has been the case for over a hundred years. The upcoming Hobbit series will be captured and viewed at 48 fps (double the standard), and the video quality will be a lot higher because their will be less motion blur due to the high frame rate.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='CourtJester' timestamp='1346827611' post='5589511']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346827228' post='5589501']
I totally understand what you mean, but you are talking about play back OPTIONS and defaults. You are talking about players how they show it if you dont adjust anything and just play it.

There is just no rule that something recorded at 240 will play back 30 fps as you said. No way. I can play 30fps video back in 0,1s or one hour. Same for 240fps video.
[/quote]

Pretty much every digital camera plays back at 30 fps, 24/30 fps is THE standard in filmography.

When you watch TV, you're watching video at 24 fps. Pretty much every movie recorded is viewed at 24 fps, this has been the case for over a hundred years. The upcoming Hobbit series will be captured and viewed at 48 fps (double the standard), and the video quality will be a lot higher because their will be less motion blur due to the high frame rate.
[/quote]

It was 18fps earlier and these 24/25/30fps came later. That just got nothing to do with the case. If you record 240 fps, you will have 240 frames from that period, if you record 30 fps, you will have 30. There is nothing that pushes you to watch them at one rate.

[CourtJester]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346828071' post='5589521']
[quote name='CourtJester' timestamp='1346827611' post='5589511']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346827228' post='5589501']
I totally understand what you mean, but you are talking about play back OPTIONS and defaults. You are talking about players how they show it if you dont adjust anything and just play it.

There is just no rule that something recorded at 240 will play back 30 fps as you said. No way. I can play 30fps video back in 0,1s or one hour. Same for 240fps video.
[/quote]

Pretty much every digital camera plays back at 30 fps, 24/30 fps is THE standard in filmography.

When you watch TV, you're watching video at 24 fps. Pretty much every movie recorded is viewed at 24 fps, this has been the case for over a hundred years. The upcoming Hobbit series will be captured and viewed at 48 fps (double the standard), and the video quality will be a lot higher because their will be less motion blur due to the high frame rate.
[/quote]

It was 18fps earlier and these 24/25/30fps came later. That just got nothing to do with the case. If you record 240 fps, you will have 240 frames from that period, if you record 30 fps, you will have 30. There is nothing that pushes you to watch them at one rate.
[/quote]

That's the whole point I was making.

If you capture 240 frames in one second, they have to be played back at a slower rate to be able to see all of the frames from that sequence, creating slow motion. This playback rate is a standard 29/30 fps.

You could play it back at 100 fps but that would be pointless since it would look no different than playing it back at 30 fps. Or you could play it back at 1 fps if you're looking to see what something looks like in an exact moment of time.

If you want to keep the illusion of continuity you have to watch something at least 20 fps, but watching it at up to 30 fps will reduce the motion blur involved resulting in better clarity.

[TeeAce]

So we were talking about different things and I think we agree now.

I don't see any reason to play those higher frame rate videos any other way than watching them frame by frame and thats what they are for.

[bab]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346828071' post='5589521']
[quote name='CourtJester' timestamp='1346827611' post='5589511']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346827228' post='5589501']
I totally understand what you mean, but you are talking about play back OPTIONS and defaults. You are talking about players how they show it if you dont adjust anything and just play it.

There is just no rule that something recorded at 240 will play back 30 fps as you said. No way. I can play 30fps video back in 0,1s or one hour. Same for 240fps video.
[/quote]

Pretty much every digital camera plays back at 30 fps, 24/30 fps is THE standard in filmography.

When you watch TV, you're watching video at 24 fps. Pretty much every movie recorded is viewed at 24 fps, this has been the case for over a hundred years. The upcoming Hobbit series will be captured and viewed at 48 fps (double the standard), and the video quality will be a lot higher because their will be less motion blur due to the high frame rate.
[/quote]

It was 18fps earlier and these 24/25/30fps came later. That just got nothing to do with the case. If you record 240 fps, you will have 240 frames from that period, if you record 30 fps, you will have 30. There is nothing that pushes you to watch them at one rate.
[/quote]

The playback rate is set in the movie-file, and I would say that basically every movie player uses this as the default playback rate. But if you choose to playback the movie in 2x or 0.5x, then it's not at the "intended" rate anymore. Don't know if this really is worth arguing about though...

[TeeAce]

[quote name='bab' timestamp='1346829619' post='5589547']


The playback rate is set in the movie-file, and I would say that basically every movie player uses this as the default playback rate. But if you choose to playback the movie in 2x or 0.5x, then it's not at the "intended" rate anymore. Don't know if this really is worth arguing about though...
[/quote]

I think you should use better players if those are only options. Many of them got frame by frame function.

And like I said, I don't see it useful to watch those higher frame rate videos in playing mode, rather frame by frame or really slow mode.

[Stevewmac]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1346811870' post='5588531']
[quote name='Chas Tennis' timestamp='1346791962' post='5586449']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1346765415' post='5583405']
Casio FH 100
............................................................. Problem is that the Casio's seem to have reliability problems. My FC100 only lasted about 18 months before the start up memory failed and I had to input the date/time every single time I started it. Now my FH 100 is doing the same whenever I take out the battery to charge it.
................................................................................
[/quote]

I had noticed the same thing recently with my Casio FH100 and have been worried. After reading your email I started reading the user's manual.

I am not certain that my loss of the set date was not due to this -

Page 18 Casio FH100 User's Manual -

[i]"Leaving the camera for about one day with no power supplied while the battery is dead will cause its date and time settings to be cleared. A message telling you to configure time and date will appear the next time you turn on the camera after restoring power....."[/i]

[The full User's Manual for the Casio cameras can be downloaded from Casio support.]

I'll be checking to see if this only happens when the battery may have been dead for a day. ? I almost always have a charged battery so I can avoid it by changing the battery right away.
[/quote]

Thanks,

That might be the issue with the FH100 but not with the FC100 I have. The FC100 would do it every time I started it, even when it had a fully charged battery installed.
[/quote]

I have the [color=#282828]FH100 and have the same issue, i need to set the date and time whenever i power on. I normally bypass this though. When you power on, just press the menu button to skip it.[/color]

[Chas Tennis]

[quote name='Chas Tennis' timestamp='1346791962' post='5586449']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1346765415' post='5583405']
Casio FH 100
............................................................. Problem is that the Casio's seem to have reliability problems. My FC100 only lasted about 18 months before the start up memory failed and I had to input the date/time every single time I started it. Now my FH 100 is doing the same whenever I take out the battery to charge it.
................................................................................
[/quote]

I had noticed the same thing recently with my Casio FH100 and have been worried. After reading your email I started reading the user's manual.

I am not certain that my loss of the set date was not due to this -

Page 18 Casio FH100 User's Manual -

[i]"Leaving the camera for about one day with no power supplied while the battery is dead will cause its date and time settings to be cleared. A message telling you to configure time and date will appear the next time you turn on the camera after restoring power....."[/i]

[The full User's Manual for the Casio cameras can be downloaded from Casio support.]

I'll be checking to see if this only happens when the battery may have been dead for a day. ? I almost always have a charged battery so I can avoid it by changing the battery right away.
[/quote]

My Casio FH100 purchased in 2010 seems now to have started doing this on a very regular basis. If I replace a low battery with a charged one I very often, if not always, now have to reset the date.

In 2 1/2 years this is the only problem that I have had with my Casio FH100.

[SunkTheBirdie]

[quote name='Chas Tennis' timestamp='1363737462' post='6646801']
My Casio FH100 purchased in 2010 seems now to have started doing this on a very regular basis. If I replace a low battery with a charged one I very often, if not always, now have to reset the date.
In 2 1/2 years this is the only problem that I have had with my Casio FH100.
[/quote]
Not really practical ... but where possible ... change the battery while the USB is plugged in ?
Wonder if there is an internal battery that needs replacing ?