Hogan had a baseball swing

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349381167' post='5751029']


Now FW will call you an idiot

Have you watched this?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpH1MB_Xbpg[/media]
[/quote]

I have no idea who FW is, and I don't care.

Yeah, I watched it... more of your theory.

Try the weak grip, PF at a downward angle when your hands are at your right thigh and close it early like hogan did in the GIF.

Look at the yale joel high speed image of Hogan immediately post impact, grasp the idea of where the butt of his club is pointing... you're totally stuck in a theory that isn't born out by the evidence, TA.

Here it is: [url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/bd2271c2696f314b.html"]http://images.google...c2696f314b.html[/url]

Examine the angle of his left arm, hand and the club, and the overall angle of the club to his arms, please. The butt of the club is pointing directly at his center. NOT anwhere left of his center. Get it?

I get it.. you're not going to back away from your theory, and because you're a pro I get that too. You'd have to change what you're teaching (like you apparently did before)... but your exagerated moves and strong left hand grip leave you missing the Hogan essentials, IMO.

I like the intellectual debates, but I'm tired of going round in circles.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349382021' post='5751109']


Just thinking about that bolded part... PF closing the face....

And stop acting that you are not Footwegde. Everyone has understood from beginning that you are same guy.
[/quote]


that's because it has the supination in it like i said it is a combo move and the rotational part is responsible for the closing as pure p.f. cannot close the face it can only deloft it. that's because if you look at pure p.f. and d.f. it is flexion and extention with no rotation and if you say supination is the problem in hooking the ball for golfers... guess what it ain't from pure p.f. because pure p.f. and d.f. can't open and close the face according to your own theory of how supination is the culprit for hooking, it means supination closes the face and pronation opens it and d.f. adds loft and p.f. delofts.


taaadaaa!!! done in by your own theory of supination and how it causes hooks, are you sure it isn't p.f. that does it...lol!


your p.f. and Hogan's have a rotational element of the forearm and that is supination.

[TeeAce]

Drew, no one has really pointed any weak points of my claims, and I will step back right after something real is showed against it.

And remember what I show in those videos are all without forces that makes it look different.

BTW early closing by PF is something I have told people for years. I have also seen what happens with that if you let your forearm supinate.

But I'd like to see your new swing video as you promised so we can see if you have found it or if you are still slinging it.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349382985' post='5751179']
Drew, no one has really pointed any weak points of my claims, and I will step back right after something real is showed against it.

And remember what I show in those videos are all without forces that makes it look different.

BTW early closing by PF is something I have told people for years. I have also seen what happens with that if you let your forearm supinate.

But I'd like to see your new swing video as you promised so we can see if you have found it or if you are still slinging it.
[/quote]


i have, there's lots of problems in your opinions. it's not pure p.f. that's for sure.

[ej002]

Doesnt PF actually open the face in relation to the target line b/c it puts the club back up the plane?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349382581' post='5751153']


your p.f. and Hogan's have a rotational element of the forearm and that is supination.
[/quote]

It's not and back to school FW. Thats the point. That rotation is not supination. And for sure PF closes the face if the club is perpendicular to your hand / forearm. Thats so basic geometry that all should understand without any explanation

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1349383148' post='5751207']
Doesnt PF actually open the face in relation to the target line b/c it puts the club back up the plane?
[/quote]

Nope if you do it right and without any other movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ZiqTAEt8A&feature=plcp

It's all in angles and it works like differential gear. More perpendicular the shaft is to your fingers, more PF rotates the shaft and closes the face. Totally parallel shaft with your forearm and PF doesnt close it at all. That was the one grip change Hogan did. Shorter thumb, less perpendicular, less closing effect by bowing.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349383150' post='5751209']


It's not and back to school FW. Thats the point. That rotation is not supination. And for sure PF closes the face if the club is perpendicular to your hand / forearm. Thats so basic geometry that all should understand without any explanation
[/quote]


well what is that rotation called of the forearm then? p.f. has no rotational element thus it cannot close the face and you saying that supination closes the face is at the core of your theory thus your theory cannot have 2 closing moves, why would Hogan want 2 closing moves to fix a hook?, he wouldn't that's because one of those moves accounts for his lower ball flight it delofts and that is p.f. and the other small rotation is supination and that accounts for the squaring of the face as to hit a fade the face is open to the path not the target ala the d-plane..

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349383520' post='5751247']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1349383148' post='5751207']
Doesnt PF actually open the face in relation to the target line b/c it puts the club back up the plane?
[/quote]

Nope if you do it right and without any other movements.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ZiqTAEt8A&feature=plcp[/media]

It's all in angles and it works like differential gear. More perpendicular the shaft is to your fingers, more PF rotates the shaft and closes the face. Totally parallel shaft with your forearm and PF doesnt close it at all. That was the one grip change Hogan did. Shorter thumb, less perpendicular, less closing effect by bowing.
[/quote]


that's because your are twisting the club axially with your fingers and p.f. does not do that, it's a wrist movement with no rotation axially.


you are using gamma torque and not beta torque, gamma is axial rotation and beta is in and out and pure p.f. would affect the club in the negative beta a laying back of the shaft but there's a catch because the arm can be pronated which would rotate the club and there's all kinds of moves that can be combined.

so pure p.f. does not have a rotation and therefore cannot close the face unless there is some other elements added.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349384094' post='5751299']



that's because your are twisting the club axially with your fingers and p.f. does not do that, it's a wrist movement with no rotation axially.
[/quote]


LOL.. you really need to learn some biomechanics

Thats one of the most stupid claims I have heard, but maybe you can explain it. What is the movement that turns it that way when your fingers are already around the shaft? What is the right medical term for that "finger twisting" when they are already twisted?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349383966' post='5751289']



well what is that rotation called of the forearm then? p.f. has no rotational element thus it cannot close the face and you saying that supination closes the face is at the core of your theory thus your theory cannot have 2 closing moves, why would Hogan want 2 closing moves to fix a hook?, he wouldn't that's because one of those moves accounts for his lower ball flight it delofts and that is p.f. and the other small rotation is supination and that accounts for the squaring of the face as to hit a fade the face is open to the path not the target ala the d-plane..
[/quote]

It's called.... dadaaaaaaa..... ROTATION!!

Try to read this carefully and understand: Supination is not a direction of movement, its specific movement where ulna and radial crosses each other certain way.

I can rotate my left forearm many ways with zero supination. I can also make it look like it rotates in video, even it doesn't. You also should step up some day behind your desk and try those movements and learn those differences and why something looks like it does in video but is totally different IRL. I hope you some day will.

[ej002]

All I know if I grip it with both hand and PF it, club head goes back up the plane - square to the arc - open to target line. Now I am sure there are ceratin degrees and ways you can PF - maybe it has to do with flexibility, but I am talking realitic world.

Edit, why am I getting in volved ???

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349384378' post='5751325']



LOL.. you really need to learn some biomechanics

Thats one of the most stupid claims I have heard, but maybe you can explain it. What is the movement that turns it that way when your fingers are already around the shaft? What is the right medical term for that "finger twisting" when they are already twisted?
[/quote]


ah i didn't say your finger twisting learn to read...lol!

[ray ray]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1349384816' post='5751369']
All I know if I grip it with both hand and PF it, club head goes back up the plane - square to the arc - open to target line. Now I am sure there are ceratin degrees and ways you can PF - maybe it has to do with flexibility, but I am talking realitic world.

Edit, why am I getting in volved ???
[/quote]


yeah it does and it also delofts. teeace has his own definitions apart from reality.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349384704' post='5751357']


It's called.... dadaaaaaaa..... ROTATION!!

Try to read this carefully and understand: Supination is not a direction of movement, its specific movement where ulna and radial crosses each other certain way.

I can rotate my left forearm many ways with zero supination. I can also make it look like it rotates in video, even it doesn't. You also should step up some day behind your desk and try those movements and learn those differences and why something looks like it does in video but is totally different IRL. I hope you some day will.
[/quote]


wrong,! fail if you rotate your foream it is supinating, that's why they have a name for the ccw rotation and a name for the cw rotation pronation, it's also a description of the direction of rotation. you are quite clueless.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349382985' post='5751179']
Drew, no one has really pointed any weak points of my claims, and I will step back right after something real is showed against it.

And remember what I show in those videos are all without forces that makes it look different.

BTW early closing by PF is something I have told people for years. I have also seen what happens with that if you let your forearm supinate.

But I'd like to see your new swing video as you promised so we can see if you have found it or if you are still slinging it.
[/quote]

I have nothing against your teaching whatever you want to teach however you want to teach it... I'm not ctiticizing that... but
YOU are pointing out your teachings and linking them implicitly (and at times expressly) to what Hogan did. .. So, when we're here discussing what Ben Hogan did and didn't do, I think we can have a debate honestly based on looking at good instructive evidence like high speed photography and have a good discussion of opinions, backed up by documentary evidence of the man.

Now, you are pointing me back to your video, where you have a left hand grip which -- in my opinion -- is on the strong side of neutral. I know we've had this dance before, and I know it seems to you from your strong right eye dominant perspective that it is a "weak" grip. Objectively, how do others see it?

Given the signal importance that Hogan has placed on the grip, perhaps that would be a good place to start -- a proper weak left hand grip -- especially when we are discussing and debating things like how much forearm rotation Hogan had as part of a combination move. Seems to me, ESSENTIAL to have a proper understanding of Hogan's grip on the club.

Very nice of you to change the subject yet again back to my swing, perhaps a bit hypocritical for a guy who recently wrote "[i]Sorry guys, but I just cant understand how it matters if one has a good swing himself or not.[/i]" Anyway, I haven't had time to hit balls in a long long while, but next time I do, I'll post a sample of an action that moves the hands out early and pivots through with deltoid action going low and left so you can see that I can do it that way... ain't rocket science really... but irrelevant to this discussion.

[drewspin]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349383966' post='5751289']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349383150' post='5751209']


It's not and back to school FW. Thats the point. That rotation is not supination. And for sure PF closes the face if the club is perpendicular to your hand / forearm. Thats so basic geometry that all should understand without any explanation
[/quote]


well what is that rotation called of the forearm then? p.f. has no rotational element thus it cannot close the face and you saying that supination closes the face is at the core of your theory thus your theory cannot have 2 closing moves, why would Hogan want 2 closing moves to fix a hook?, he wouldn't that's because one of those moves accounts for his lower ball flight it delofts and that is p.f. and the other small rotation is supination and that accounts for the squaring of the face as to hit a fade the face is open to the path not the target ala the d-plane..
[/quote]

Try to PF with a strong grip : LOL - 9 bones in the wrist.

When the styloid process of the ulna moves CCW from the axial perspective of the forearm, that's supination also. Changers of dictionaries not withstanding.

[ray ray]

The movement of body structures is accomplished by the contraction of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle"]muscles[/url]. Muscles may move parts of the skeleton relatively to each other, or may move parts of internal organs relatively to each other. All such movements are classified by the [color=#FF0000]directions [/color]in which the affected structures are moved. In

[ray ray]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349385350' post='5751429']

Try to PF with a strong grip : LOL - 9 bones in the wrist.

When the styloid process of the ulna moves CCW from the axial perspective of the forearm, that's supination also. Changers of dictionaries not withstanding.
[/quote]


i think dustin johnson does that...lol!

[ray ray]

anyways i will leave it at that. teeace has his theory and opinions and no one is going to change his mind, which is fine only if he could admit they are opinions and not proven fact, but you can't always get what you want, so i've heard...lol!

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349384704' post='5751357']
It's called.... dadaaaaaaa..... ROTATION!!

Try to read this carefully and understand: Supination is not a direction of movement, its specific movement where ulna and radial crosses each other certain way.

[/quote]

Nonsense. "Supinate" is also action [b]verb. [/b]It indicates a directional movement (CCW rotation of the ulna along the axis of the forearm), unless those damned dictionary writers all just changed the term again.

Where'd you get that baloney?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1349375307' post='5750409']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349374194' post='5750309']
When I do it, the whole forearm doesn't rotate - just the bottom half plus the wrist, which to me is just wrist rotation with a forearm twist around the elbow joint. I don't think the forearm can truly rotate without rotating the elbow.
[/quote]

Now somebody has to define "wrist" and "forearm." Where exactly does the wrist end and forearm begin?? I would never put anyone on the stand unless I had a concrete definition that the judge and jury could easily understand.
[/quote]

I've always considered the elbow and wrist part of the forearm since they're attached to the ends of the forearm bones. I.e., the forearm is what you have left when you chop off the hand and upper arm at the joints.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349385350' post='5751429']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349383966' post='5751289']



well what is that rotation called of the forearm then? p.f. has no rotational element thus it cannot close the face and you saying that supination closes the face is at the core of your theory thus your theory cannot have 2 closing moves, why would Hogan want 2 closing moves to fix a hook?, he wouldn't that's because one of those moves accounts for his lower ball flight it delofts and that is p.f. and the other small rotation is supination and that accounts for the squaring of the face as to hit a fade the face is open to the path not the target ala the d-plane..
[/quote]

Try to PF with a strong grip : LOL - 9 bones in the wrist.

When the styloid process of the ulna moves CCW from the axial perspective of the forearm, that's supination also. Changers of dictionaries not withstanding.
[/quote]

LOL... so matter if it rotates with upper arm or no matter if I rotate myself... you still call it supination.... that's great guys. But please, try at least get that to your understanding that it's not. It's supination only if it rotates relative to the upper arm.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349385170' post='5751409']
.. So, when we're here discussing what Ben Hogan did and didn't do, I think we can have a debate honestly based on looking at good instructive evidence like high speed photography and have a good discussion of opinions, backed up by documentary evidence of the man.

[/quote]

Are we? I have been mainly discussing about if he meant real supination or bowing should be done just prior to impact. I havent seen any physical or medical professionals yet calling that movement what he described being supination. No matter if you see it also supinates the forearm a bit or not.

What you are doing is to put the attention to the hand in soccer kick, when teacher is telling you how your foot should go.

And one more thing about eye-dominance.... I think you are screen dominance if you see my grip being strong and that got nothing to do with my eyes. My left thumb is just at the top of the shaft all the way down. Maybe you should study bit more anatomy to understand really what you see.

[TeeAce]

And some day when people realize what kind of movement he really wanted us to produce, the interest turns from left hand to the right one, because it's all there. What we see at the left wrist is actually the action of the right side, but rest you have to figure out by yourselves.

[svsvincenzo]

that's because you looked in the wrong kind of dictionaries, you should have looked in the medical dictionaries, i also read that your buddy f.w. told you this about 7 months ago and you didn't believe it, he told you you were using an incorrect definition and in the anatomical position it's still supination if the forearm rotates ccw.

 

i doubt the dictionaries changed their definition because of your video, anyone with a reasonable amount of common sense would know if the forearm rotates ccw it's still supinating no matter the position of the body whether that been standing in the anatomical position or lying down or sitting, only you would argue otherwise for weeks like i read and then now try and take credit because dictionaries just clarified it...lol!

 

 

i think they changed it because of footwedge telling you it's still called supination in the anatomical position. i can get the post for you if you want and prove my statement so as not to look like i'm just giving out false information like someone else has a tendency to do.... won't mention any names.

 

Wrong again, it was also in medical dictionaries like that and all those changed it. No matter why, but it's better now than it was before.

 

The point is that palm facing up was what Hogan wanted to happen at impact and dictionaries said it's supination. But it's not when the arm is hanging down and that made the confusion.

 

All who have learned to hit the ball at decent level can in one second understand that those things he described at 5L at pages 100 - 105 can never happen by rotating the forearm, but they all happen if you bow your wrist, just like in the image at 102. All those images are showing us bowing, not rotation, even the hand of course rotates at the same time in unison with the body and specially left shoulder.

 

Supination is not when forearm rotates CCW. It's only if that happens relative to the upper arm, so rotation itself to that direction is not supination.

 

So look at this picture again and tell me if the thumb has changed it's orientation to the upper arm or not. And what would happen if the forearm would roll from the first image? Where would the toe point then?

 

 

The example lost/released accum #2 already. That's why supination happened. It's inevitable.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='sigsauer' timestamp='1349428757' post='5753705']

The example lost/released accum #2 already. That's why supination happened. It's inevitable.
[/quote]

1. There was no supination in this swing, the whole left arm has been rotated 90 degrees from this view by left shoulder and adding supination there would be miles to the left
2. Have you seen someone keeping the face behind him more at this moment from this view? If you got some top down videos of good players I'm really interested to see those.

[Pinsplitter59]

wrestling is not my chosen sport so i haven't been able to read all this thread.
anyhow Hogan had a tennis forehand half volley drop shot swing,
any cricketer know that.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349383150' post='5751209']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349382581' post='5751153']
your p.f. and Hogan's have a rotational element of the forearm and that is supination.
[/quote]

It's not and back to school FW. Thats the point. That rotation is not supination. And for sure PF closes the face if the club is perpendicular to your hand / forearm. Thats so basic geometry that all should understand without any explanation
[/quote]



Not possible in geometry. It closes the face if you dont do something else at the same time. Depends of the angle of connection, but if someone says PF opens the face, he dont understand what PF really is.

Or are you saying face is opening here when wrist bows?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=y3ZiqTAEt8A[/media]

[Pinsplitter59]

here's proof
[attachment=1372311:Ben_Hogan_Powergolf-tennis.jpg]