Hogan had a baseball swing

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349893776' post='5776915']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349892505' post='5776765']
you just don't want to see it because like i said [b]you have a horse in the race[/b].... sorry you are just plain wrong about many things, and the golfswing is not a closed system. also [b]you're wrong about who i am[/b]. basically you're wrong about a lot of things..... sorry it's just the truth...lol!
[/quote]

He's one of "Italian Stallion" stable boys!
[/quote]



are you the same mizunojoe from manzellas forum a few years back? weren't you a member? aren't you still one there....hmmmm stable boy indeed!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349894914' post='5777033']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349893422' post='5776883']
Ray Ray, you said pure PF can never rotate the shaft. Are you serious about that?


Here you got first pure supination and it doesn't rotate the shaft, then pure PF and the shaft rotates 90 degrees.
[/quote]


another problem you have is that will not be the clubs orientation nearing impact, and that will change everything , plus that isn't axial rotation along the shafts long axis which is gamma torque which is supination, you have it all mixed up, because you don't understand the club changes it's orientation in the swing.

i can't help you anymore till you show me what muscles in the wrist can rotate the forearm. Hogan used a combination move using both his wrist and forearm just like he said, be bowed and supinated.
[/quote]

LOL... you are funny. That direction never changes and that's exactly what Kelvin called early supination, and he was 100% wrong. It was just that move, from cupped to bowed.

You are right that it when coming to impact that relation changes but in reality club doesn't change its orientation to the hand. UD only reduces that a bit, but that movement still got same direction.

And BTW, UD + PF are just the things that make that lower part of forearm rotate when there is resistance of the club on the other side. That's why you confuse it to supination rather than admit the truth.

So read this carefully. In UD position if you bow your wrist (PF) inside muscles of the forearm shortens and outside muscles extend. That makes the outer (radial side) rise and when it's at 45 degree angel to the camera, like it normally is, it seems to rotate when it doesnt in reality.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349893261' post='5776867']



i disagree. Miller has almost no knowledge of the physics involved. [b]you forget about the shaft and what it is doing, you cannot accelrate the whole club as if it were a solid piece of inflexible material.[/b] the ch via the shaft is trying to catch up to and pass the hands at a certain point and the shaft is like a snake bending and flexing and at impact only the bottom 5 to 6in. of the shaft and the clubhead are involved with the collision with the ball, the other part of the shaft and the golfer at this point are basically de-coupled from that. the hands decelerate as the ch accelerates, eventually!

so if that idea of accelerating the whole club as a rigid unflexing rod makes you hit it better keep on doing it, but Miller has no clue about the physics, he can play great golf and maybe teach , but that's a different thing.
[/quote]

If the title of the Miller article was "The Physics of the Golf Swing", I missed it.

He's not forgetting about the shaft - it's a part of the whole club. And I didn't see anything about a rigid unflexing rod. The shaft gets stressed and flexes - so what? From the top or after a plane shift, you can certainly move the whole club at the same rate. That's the whole idea - move the head and butt at the same rate to a late release point which retains the wrist ****, which is basically what Miller is saying.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349895342' post='5777065']




are you the same mizunojoe from manzellas forum a few years back? weren't you a member? aren't you still one there....hmmmm stable boy indeed!
[/quote]

Yes. Yes. Don't know.

When I tried to confront that NY guy who was misrepresenting TGM in order to sell his plagiarized parametric koolaid, I was swarmed by a nest of smart-mouthed bmanz groupies.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349893229' post='5776861']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349849744' post='5774719']
[b]All the forces are produced against the ground as there is no other possibility.[/b]

[/quote]

Not correct. You can certainly swing a golf club while floating in space for example and forces internal to the body result. Some people are virtually airborne at impact. The countertorque/force against the acceleration of the club will be provided by the inertial mass of the body in this case. This is in part what causes the pivot to slow down as the club speeds up in many swings.
[/quote]

I verified this while cliff jumping (into water) once. I'll get a slo mo video next time.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349851802' post='5774755']
Tee - have you done any research on using the right forearm as a slap hinge to increase hand speed?
[/quote]

I checked about 10 players this morning around this case and it seems no advantage for them about that comparing to those who keep the elbow bent. Straightening of the right arm seems to decelerate strongly right shoulder speed as well shoulders rotation speed and the hand speed graph had no change after all. What it seems to do is that club head passes the hands earlier and also comes inside of the hand path earlier.

So this is only quick check from 10 players and all rights...

[ALIF]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349931446' post='5779621']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349851802' post='5774755']
Tee - have you done any research on using the right forearm as a slap hinge to increase hand speed?
[/quote]

I checked about 10 players this morning around this case and it seems no advantage for them about that comparing to those who keep the elbow bent. Straightening of the right arm seems to decelerate strongly right shoulder speed as well shoulders rotation speed and the hand speed graph had no change after all. What it seems to do is that club head passes the hands earlier and also comes inside of the hand path earlier.

So this is only quick check from 10 players and all rights...
[/quote]

Now that's impressive. Nice work! Makes sense too.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1349931680' post='5779633']


Now that's impressive. Nice work! Makes sense too.
[/quote]

Yes it does and fits well to the closed system thoughts as well to some researches where they say that right shoulder speed is main factor for swing speed. In reality there is no big difference between right and left shoulder speed, but also they are not the same in all dimensions as right shoulder lateral speed is bit higher than left to the opposite direction, which is logical also.

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349897445' post='5777265']


Yes. Yes. Don't know.

When I tried to confront that NY guy who was misrepresenting TGM in order to sell his plagiarized parametric koolaid, I was swarmed by a nest of smart-mouthed bmanz groupies.
[/quote]


and?

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349896504' post='5777177']


If the title of the Miller article was "The Physics of the Golf Swing", I missed it.

He's not forgetting about the shaft - it's a part of the whole club. And I didn't see anything about a rigid unflexing rod. The shaft gets stressed and flexes - so what? From the top or after a plane shift, you can certainly move the whole club at the same rate. That's the whole idea - move the head and butt at the same rate to a late release point which retains the wrist ****, which is basically what Miller is saying.
[/quote]


that's the point the whole club doesn't move all together at the same rate, the bending and flexing of the shaft doesn't allow it....duh! miller has no clue about what the club actually does and has proved it. he was a very good player and that isn't the same as knowing what really happens in the swing, he only knows what he feels and whaat he see's with his eyes and that can't tell what forces are been applied by a golfer or what the club is actually doing, he thinks you can alter the face angle while the ball is on the face, that say's it all about his knowledge of what is really happening


i guess he will be teaching that...lol!!!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349935694' post='5779751']



that's the point the whole club doesn't move all together at the same rate, the bending and flexing of the shaft doesn't allow it....duh!
[/quote]

You understood that totally wrong. Shaft flexing got nothing to do with this because it's something which is out of players control.

The main point is to swing the whole club and the shaft instead of the club head. Keeping the pressure on the grip and left thumb instead of slinging the head.

[Staffer]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349932327' post='5779669']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1349931680' post='5779633']

Now that's impressive. Nice work! Makes sense too.
[/quote]

Yes it does and fits well to the closed system thoughts as well to some researches where they say that right shoulder speed is main factor for swing speed. In reality there is no big difference between right and left shoulder speed, but also they are not the same in all dimensions as right shoulder lateral speed is bit higher than left to the opposite direction, which is logical also.
[/quote]

>right shoulder speed is main factor for swing speed

and by coincidence right shoulder speed is also the main factor when slamming a door shut....

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349931446' post='5779621']


I checked about 10 players this morning around this case and it seems no advantage for them about that comparing to those who keep the elbow bent. Straightening of the right arm seems to decelerate strongly right shoulder speed as well shoulders rotation speed and the hand speed graph had no change after all. What it seems to do is that club head passes the hands earlier and also comes inside of the hand path earlier.

So this is only quick check from 10 players and all rights...
[/quote]

Thanks Tee - however, I'm not talking about straightening the right arm, but rather using the right forearm as a slap hinge with the pivot point being the right elbow when the shaft gets to the last parallel before impact, which puts the elbow against the right hip. In my case that comes after a lateral shift of the hips and the shoulders are still closed to the target and about to turn through the shot. The arm doesn't straighten til after the slapping motion, so the elbow is still bent at impact. So - instead of only the right shoulder driving the right forearm through impact, it gets a turbo boost from the muscles of the right forearm. The slapping motion is basically a sidearm throwing motion like that used by the SS in baseball when throwing to first.

[ray ray]

also earlier the head is lagging behinh[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349935950' post='5779763']


You understood that totally wrong. Shaft flexing got nothing to do with this because it's something which is out of players control.

The main point is to swing the whole club and the shaft instead of the club head. Keeping the pressure on the grip and left thumb instead of slinging the head.
[/quote]



no i didn't misunderstand, i know what mj meant, but it doesn't happen it is only a thought or a feel and i said earlier if it helps you go ahead and do it. what difference does it make if it is out of the players control, the whole club does not move like it is one solid rigid mass that you can move all together, that's the point. does all of a whip move together at the same rate is the handle moving at the same rate as the tip? i'm not talking about flipping and throwaway.


and it's an important one because nearing impact the clubhead is catching up to the hands....so tell me teeace how is it possible to keep swinging all of it as a whole when part of it is slowing and part of it is speeding up? that's the point it is out of your control and thinking you can do something that can't happen in reality is fine if it helps you but it doesn't make it any more of a reality.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349935602' post='5779745']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349897445' post='5777265']


Yes. Yes. Don't know.

When I tried to confront that NY guy who was misrepresenting TGM in order to sell his plagiarized parametric koolaid, I was swarmed by a nest of smart-mouthed bmanz groupies.
[/quote]


and?
[/quote]

bmanz said I had a "horse in the race", so I left and never went back - I'm neither a jockey nor a mud wrestler.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349977665' post='5781569']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349935950' post='5779763']


You understood that totally wrong. Shaft flexing got nothing to do with this because it's something which is out of players control.

The main point is to swing the whole club and the shaft instead of the club head. Keeping the pressure on the grip and left thumb instead of slinging the head.
[/quote]



no i didn't misunderstand, i know what mj meant, but it doesn't happen it is only a thought or a feel and i said earlier if it helps you go ahead and do it. what difference does it make if it is out of the players control, the whole club does not move like it is one solid rigid mass that you can move all together, that's the point. does all of a whip move together at the same rate is the handle moving at the same rate as the tip?


and it's an important one because nearing impact the clubhead is catching up to the hands....so tell me teeace how is it possible to keep swinging all of it as a whole when part of it is slowing and part of it is speeding up? that's the point it is out of your control and thinking you can do something that can't happen in reality is fine if it helps you but it doesn't make it any more of a reality.
[/quote]

You swing the whole club [b]only to release point[/b] - then the shaft starts freewheeling, unless you decide to add force across the shaft.

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349978091' post='5781615']


You swing the whole club [b]only to release point[/b] - then the shaft starts freewheeling, unless you decide to add force across the shaft.


[/quote]



you think you do but since you have a wrist joint and a flexible shaft it ain't going to happen exactly that way. and by the way some golfers think of throwing the clubhead first and in reality it doesn't happen but it helps them...go figure! and some think that and guess what throwaway and flipping, but i'm not talking about that.

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349978091' post='5781615']


You swing the whole club [b]only to release point[/b] - then the shaft starts freewheeling, unless you decide to add force across the shaft.
[/quote]


oh and the shaft is doing lots of things before " release point"

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349977665' post='5781569']
also earlier the head is lagging behinh


no i didn't misunderstand, i know what mj meant, but it doesn't happen it is only a thought or a feel and i said earlier if it helps you go ahead and do it. what difference does it make if it is out of the players control, the whole club does not move like it is one solid rigid mass that you can move all together, that's the point. does all of a whip move together at the same rate is the handle moving at the same rate as the tip? i'm not talking about flipping and throwaway.


and it's an important one because nearing impact the clubhead is catching up to the hands....so tell me teeace how is it possible to keep swinging all of it as a whole when part of it is slowing and part of it is speeding up? that's the point it is out of your control and thinking you can do something that can't happen in reality is fine if it helps you but it doesn't make it any more of a reality.
[/quote]

You are talking about reactions, I talk about actions.

Players action is that he fires with handle/shaft/ whole club and what happens in that case to the club head is the reaction part. The difference as JM is describing it is that we have been told so many years to speed up the club head and use actively that lever and he, as well me, thinks that's a big mistake. The players attention should be swinging the whole club and but most of the pressure to the upper part of the grip, not the lower one.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349978390' post='5781647']



you think you do but since you have a wrist joint and a flexible shaft it ain't going to happen exactly that way. and by the way some golfers think of throwing the clubhead first and in reality it doesn't happen but it helps them...go figure! and some think that and guess what throwaway and flipping, but i'm not talking about that.
[/quote]

If you can feel an X shaft flex at release point, then you've got way more feel than I do! All I feel is lag pressure on the trigger finger.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349978908' post='5781689']
All I feel is lag pressure on the trigger finger.
[/quote]
...but if you use the elbow as a hinge and slam the door shut then you are bending baseline way left unless the rest of your action is setup to be 1st base line; or even foul(baseball reference). Right? Why not right arm straightening instead?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1350207930' post='5791801']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349978908' post='5781689']
All I feel is lag pressure on the trigger finger.
[/quote]
...but if you use the elbow as a hinge and slam the door shut then you are bending baseline way left unless the rest of your action is setup to be 1st base line; or even foul(baseball reference). Right? Why not right arm straightening instead?
[/quote]

Here is one drill I use a lot for my students

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HrGFep3PcA

Now at the first part when the heel of the club is connected to that liner, put yourself to that position and straighten your right arm. What will happen to the club head when you do that?

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349978681' post='5781669']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349977665' post='5781569']
also earlier the head is lagging behinh


no i didn't misunderstand, i know what mj meant, but it doesn't happen it is only a thought or a feel and i said earlier if it helps you go ahead and do it. what difference does it make if it is out of the players control, the whole club does not move like it is one solid rigid mass that you can move all together, that's the point. does all of a whip move together at the same rate is the handle moving at the same rate as the tip? i'm not talking about flipping and throwaway.


and it's an important one because nearing impact the clubhead is catching up to the hands....so tell me teeace how is it possible to keep swinging all of it as a whole when part of it is slowing and part of it is speeding up? that's the point it is out of your control and thinking you can do something that can't happen in reality is fine if it helps you but it doesn't make it any more of a reality.
[/quote]

You are talking about reactions, I talk about actions.

Players action is that he fires with handle/shaft/ whole club and what happens in that case to the club head is the reaction part. The difference as JM is describing it is that we have been told so many years to speed up the club head and use actively that lever and he, as well me, thinks that's a big mistake. The players attention should be swinging the whole club and but most of the pressure to the upper part of the grip, not the lower one.
[/quote]



that's a feel, it works for some and the other feel also works for others, i already said i wasn't talikng about that, i was talking about what happens to the club in reality.

i know what throwaway and flipping is, but the feel of what someone thinks they are doing and what they are actually doing can be quite different....get it?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1350207930' post='5791801']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349978908' post='5781689']
All I feel is lag pressure on the trigger finger.
[/quote]
...but if you use the elbow as a hinge and slam the door shut then you are bending baseline way left unless the rest of your action is setup to be 1st base line; or even foul(baseball reference). Right? Why not right arm straightening instead?
[/quote]

At last parallel, on a shallow DS plane from a plane shift, a 90 deg slap squares the face, and I prefer it because I can slap the shaft through faster than I can push it through with the right triceps.

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349978908' post='5781689']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349978390' post='5781647']
you think you do but since you have a wrist joint and a flexible shaft it ain't going to happen exactly that way. and by the way some golfers think of throwing the clubhead first and in reality it doesn't happen but it helps them...go figure! and some think that and guess what throwaway and flipping, but i'm not talking about that.
[/quote]

If you can feel an X shaft flex at release point, then you've got way more feel than I do! All I feel is lag pressure on the trigger finger.
[/quote]


i never said that. i just said what the club is actually doing , it doesn't care if you feel it or not it is still doing it's thing. it flexes and bends and twists regardless.

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349977837' post='5781595']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349935602' post='5779745']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349897445' post='5777265']
Yes. Yes. Don't know.

When I tried to confront that NY guy who was misrepresenting TGM in order to sell his plagiarized parametric koolaid, I was swarmed by a nest of smart-mouthed bmanz groupies.
[/quote]


and?
[/quote]

bmanz said I had a "horse in the race", so I left and never went back - I'm neither a jockey nor a mud wrestler.
[/quote]


nor am i !

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1350252839' post='5793521']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349978681' post='5781669']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349977665' post='5781569']
also earlier the head is lagging behinh


no i didn't misunderstand, i know what mj meant, but it doesn't happen it is only a thought or a feel and i said earlier if it helps you go ahead and do it. what difference does it make if it is out of the players control, the whole club does not move like it is one solid rigid mass that you can move all together, that's the point. does all of a whip move together at the same rate is the handle moving at the same rate as the tip? i'm not talking about flipping and throwaway.


and it's an important one because nearing impact the clubhead is catching up to the hands....so tell me teeace how is it possible to keep swinging all of it as a whole when part of it is slowing and part of it is speeding up? that's the point it is out of your control and thinking you can do something that can't happen in reality is fine if it helps you but it doesn't make it any more of a reality.
[/quote]

You are talking about reactions, I talk about actions.

Players action is that he fires with handle/shaft/ whole club and what happens in that case to the club head is the reaction part. The difference as JM is describing it is that we have been told so many years to speed up the club head and use actively that lever and he, as well me, thinks that's a big mistake. The players attention should be swinging the whole club and but most of the pressure to the upper part of the grip, not the lower one.
[/quote]



that's a feel, it works for some and the other feel also works for others, i already said i wasn't talikng about that, i was talking about what happens to the club in reality.

i know what throwaway and flipping is, but the feel of what someone thinks they are doing and what they are actually doing can be quite different....get it?
[/quote]

Ray, that's the action. What we see is action+ reaction, and I dont mean mental reaction, but inertia and some other things. 90% of those who seems to flip don't have that action but it still happens. Also 90% of armchair pros thinks that all they see happening is active.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1350273473' post='5794797']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1350252839' post='5793521']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349978681' post='5781669']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349977665' post='5781569']
also earlier the head is lagging behinh


no i didn't misunderstand, i know what mj meant, but it doesn't happen it is only a thought or a feel and i said earlier if it helps you go ahead and do it. what difference does it make if it is out of the players control, the whole club does not move like it is one solid rigid mass that you can move all together, that's the point. does all of a whip move together at the same rate is the handle moving at the same rate as the tip? i'm not talking about flipping and throwaway.


and it's an important one because nearing impact the clubhead is catching up to the hands....so tell me teeace how is it possible to keep swinging all of it as a whole when part of it is slowing and part of it is speeding up? that's the point it is out of your control and thinking you can do something that can't happen in reality is fine if it helps you but it doesn't make it any more of a reality.
[/quote]

You are talking about reactions, I talk about actions.

Players action is that he fires with handle/shaft/ whole club and what happens in that case to the club head is the reaction part. The difference as JM is describing it is that we have been told so many years to speed up the club head and use actively that lever and he, as well me, thinks that's a big mistake. The players attention should be swinging the whole club and but most of the pressure to the upper part of the grip, not the lower one.
[/quote]



that's a feel, it works for some and the other feel also works for others, i already said i wasn't talikng about that, i was talking about what happens to the club in reality.

i know what throwaway and flipping is, but the feel of what someone thinks they are doing and what they are actually doing can be quite different....get it?
[/quote]

Ray, that's the action. What we see is action+ reaction, and I dont mean mental reaction, but inertia and some other things. 90% of those who seems to flip don't have that action but it still happens. Also 90% of armchair pros thinks that all they see happening is active.
[/quote]


i know that, it wasn't what i was talking about. 90% of those that flip have put themselves in a position to flip. 100% of those that don't flip have put themselves in a position that makes it very hard to flip, almost impossible to flip. hard not to flip when backing out or backing up or both. lateral side bends, tilts rotation etc. in the pivot are crucial. flippers and armchair pros think they can solve it /fix it ...through the hands and arms and wrist ****/lag, lateral weight shift etc. but that's a very hard way to do it, almost impossible if the body is in the wrong position those things won't work, they are bandaids. can't hit the little ball first with any authority and the big ball second if your body configuration and orientation is out of whack.

i'm no armchair pro!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1350281609' post='5795007']



i know that, it wasn't what i was talking about. 90% of those that flip have put themselves in a position to flip. 100% of those that don't flip have put themselves in a position that makes it very hard to flip, almost impossible to flip. hard not to flip when backing out or backing up or both. lateral side bends, tilts rotation etc. in the pivot are crucial. flippers and armchair pros think they can solve it /fix it ...through the hands and arms and wrist ****/lag, lateral weight shift etc. but that's a very hard way to do it, almost impossible if the body is in the wrong position those things won't work, they are bandaids. can't hit the little ball first with any authority and the big ball second if your body configuration and orientation is out of whack.

i'm no armchair pro!
[/quote]

Ray, I'm really glad to read that. Good post that tells a lot for preparing, but the main thing is still out there. By those positions player makes it possible to accelerate through the impact and keep up the hand/ grip speed as high as possible. All the intentions to speed up the club head will produce more or less flipping.

[drewspin]

Tapio, just because the club head does not speed up with every added movement, doesn't therefore mean it is a closed system and energy/work cannot be added through the downstroke. For example, if you are pushing a car on flat ground, you may be able to push it 2 MPH, if you hit a slight upslope, the speed of the car may de-accelerate despite the fact that you are still adding energy/work to push the car, the speed drops because of other forces that make the work required to achieve the same speed greater, but work can be addded, so the system is not closed. As the club head swings out (during release) it requires more work to accelerate it because there is a greater MOI of the club and there is a force pushing back on the handle opposite the direction the hands are moving... but work can still be added.

Was Hogan sometimes a flipper in your book?

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[attachment=1384013:Fairway-wood.jpg]

[attachment=1384015:baltusrol54.jpg]